Canon EOS R5C

[Emanuel]

10 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

I think the micro-HDMI is the worst cripple in my opinion. I honestly think realtime gyro enhanced digital stabilization will be the future. You sacrifice a slight crop and 1-axis of correction (the axis that causes the wobble anyway) for more stable footage without the need for a fast shutter.

Back again to your post, I think any people's complaint on IBIS or lack of IBIS should end here in this video test, thanks for your post BTW even though anything may not surprise me there from what I've already tested myself using one and another but it's always interesting to know some other people are arriving to the same conclusions of ourselves : ) People cannot expect the best of each worlds. IBIS or digital stabilization helps SHAKY hands (IBIS wobble is connected with a physical solution, as simple as that : ) -- Period.

Other than that, buy a gimbal and stop whining. End of story :- )

[Emanuel]

*each world (I guess the representation of two separate worlds was in my mind anyway hence the plural form when I wrote it : D)

[ade towell]

I don't like using gimbles I want to be able to have the handheld look and IBIS helps smooth out jitters from these small mirrorless cameras without having to rig it out.

Canons IBIS isn't as good as Panasonic's and Olympus, it's their 1st attempt but I would still find it useful - the wobble effect is only on really wide shots where IBIS isn't so important anyway. But 35mm and above it is a great asset to have.

The external power needed to get 8k 60 is a bit of a bummer, the Anker power brick required is wider than the R5c. Now the compact camera has cables and other crap hanging off it and we're back to Franken rig. The little internal batteries don't seem to be able to run this camera for very long on some of the other shooting modes either. It will need external power.

I think it is a fantastic camera and there will be some amazing stuff shot with it, I love that they have kept the evf (unlike the fx3), but for my style of shooting there are too many new gotchas

[Emanuel]

For sure not made for wide shots neither as gimbal replacement or do we expect IBIS will stabilize our video for walking !?? ; )

Panasonic and Olympus offer better IBIS, correct, but doesn't replace a gimbal shot, unless your camera movement doesn't justify the use of it.

Seems to me modern digital stabilization is much more effective for shaking hands and the test with the camera attached to the car proves it.

I hate when we are unfair anyway, and so far I don't see anything other than good efforts this time along this camera release in particular (TBH it has surprised me enough to not be silent for the subject matter : )

[kye]

Well done everyone...  you inspired me to shoot a little test to show why Digital Stabilisation can't replace OIS / IBIS.

@Emanuel - this is the video that should end the debate.

Digital stabilisation can be great, but only if there is very little motion and only if you have short shutter speeds.

I'd encourage everyone to realise that Digital Stabilisation is just DIFFERENT to OIS or IBIS.  It's a different tool for a different job.

I often use digital stabilisation on my IBIS footage and it can work really well.  Hopefully this clears things up?

[Emanuel]

Horses for courses, of course : ) Thanks for posting @kye I still keep my position though... That's shot on GH5, not a 2022 camera, with higher native resolution to play with along, etc. ; ) Not this Canon one in particular ;- )

[kye]

17 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Horses for courses, of course : ) Thanks for posting @kye I still keep my position though... That's shot on GH5, not a 2022 camera, with higher native resolution to play with along, etc. ; ) Not this Canon one in particular ;- )

The digital stabilisation was done in Resolve, which has better digital stabilisation than ANY camera will EVER have, because Resolve can see into the future and cameras can't.

IBIS / OIS stabilises DURING the exposure of each frame, digital stabilisation does not and therefore the frames will have motion blur.  

I don't understand how you could watch that comparison and still genuinely think that one can replace the other.  I'm sorry if this is rude, but I just literally can't understand how you could see it and not understand it.  The IBIS means that the frames are all sharp, the digital stabilisation has frames that are blurry as all hell.

I shoot very unstable handheld footage all the time and stabilise digitally in post and this whole thing has been obvious to me from basically day one.  

[kye]

IBIS = blur reduction, Digital Stabilisation only = no blur reduction

[Emanuel]

No problem, I don't find it rude, I just think you're trying to express your point the best you can through a written form, sometimes we risk to seem rude and we don't intend to, only to make a point or even putting ours to debate : )

I did NOT write one replaces another, c'mon... Much different what I wrote.

 

BTW, I am using IS glass since its introduction. I recall a test done with my 24-105 f/4 coupled to my 5DII 13 years ago even before this community was created by our webmaster. People then found pretty amazing how could an interview be shot handheld using an unexpected focal length going tele with that zoom lens. Still wondering if I hadn't used a tripod, monopod, anything extra to stabilize it, go figure!

 

I obviously understand the contribution of the conclusions of your test, moreover the whole advantages you've fairly shown with. No doubt on it at all : ) Pretty clear and consensual.

That's not my point. My point is that we cannot compare the digital stabilization of this camera model in particular with anything other from a different capture device, no matter what else. It's apples to oranges :- )

 

That car test (done with digital stabilization on a R5C vs IBIS R5) is very elucidative to everyone. Just not to people who don't watch it or have any bias or beef against, so better to not pay attention to it. I instead appreciate to rather praise and evolve my scope as much as I can, so I am always open to listen some new insight, no worries about.

If you say, ah but let's change the variables such as shutter speed, focal length, etc. and take a new look? Now we're talking... ; ) So, I find it not exactly hopeful but just interesting any test under distinct premises, camera included.

[shooter]

1 hour ago, kye said:

The digital stabilisation was done in Resolve, which has better digital stabilisation than ANY camera will EVER have, because Resolve can see into the future and cameras can't.

Emanuel is right. Are you comparing the digital digitalization in-camera of the new R5C with Resolve from footage of a different camera? This will lead to different results all around.

[mrtreve]

This is a nice example of the camera used in a doc setting.

It looks like 100% tripod / Ronin-S so they avoid the IBIS limitation there. I think the oversampled image looks great even on Youtube.

 

 

 

 

[Django]

8 hours ago, kye said:

1Gbps is fine for 8K RAW, but if you were shooting a documentary with literally hundreds (maybe even 1000+) hours of footage, halving the bitrate is a significant thing and can make a huge difference.  

Documentaries like that wouldn't be shot in RAW but rather 422 10-bit.

If you must shoot in RAW and you wanna half the 1Gbps bitrate, you could compromise with 5.9K at 556mbps or even 2.9K at 144mbps (Super16).

There are really a bunch of options on this camera, I don't understand the fuss about codecs & resolution.

Quote

Canon are well regarded for the colour science of their skin-tones, but they are absolutely NOT well regarded for the quality of their compressed codecs on their hybrid cameras.  That's what we're talking about here.

I see ML RAW frame grabs from a 5D3 regularly (thanks to @mercer) and when shot properly and graded with a simple LUT the skin-tones should remind you of an Alexa.  If you're not going "wow" then something horrible has happened to the image.  

Think about all the you tubers who are shooting 4K with Canon FF cameras - when was the last time you looked at one of their videos and thought "holy cr*p those colours are AMAZING"....?  Never?  Exactly....

I don't know what you tubers you're referring to but I'm basing my opinion on actual years of shooting with Canon gear.

I've gone through most their cameras since 5DM2 including Cinema line and the compressed codec have always been impressive to me compared to other cameras compressed codecs, that includes the C100 24mbps codec!

To me -shot and graded properly- the R5/R6 have excellent overall IQ. No problems there.

The 10-bit 4:2:2 C-Log compressed codec are fine and color/skin-tone wise I prefer it to BlackMagic CS.

I was even going to buy a C70 before it even had Canon RAW. that goes to show you ho much I believe in their compressed codecs.

From what I've been seeing (and know from C200) is that CRL does bring out more sharpness & detail and obviously 12-bit color. So shooting Canon RAW is of course a major IQ benefit if you can handle file size & workflow.

And yes 5D3 ML 14-bit RAW was something special but that's more nostalgia speaking. It was rather quirky to shoot, cumbersome workflow to edit and of course FHD which is an obsolete format.

 

 

[herein2020]

10 hours ago, kye said:

Even worse though, is that once the digital stabilisation has worked its magic, the shot looks smooth but there will be random blurring of frames without any corresponding change to the overall shot.  In other words, digital stabilisation without having very short shutter speeds will look worse than no stabilisation at all.

THIS is what people don't seem to understand when I say IBIS really is a big deal. THIS is exactly what I am talking about when I say I see horrible random jitter in all of the Canon digital IS clips I have watched if it was anything more than a slight pan or tilt.  I saw it in the C70 footage and I see it in the R5c footage.

I call it jitter, you call it blurring, but we are saying the same thing; digital stabilization looks very unnatural in more situations to my eyes than IBIS does and Canon's implementation of it is worse than GoPros and far worse than post processing like Davinci Resolve but the problem is it is baked into the footage. I can easily fix the IBIS wobble (which by the way I've literally never had a problem with when shooting on my S5) by shooting at a focal length longer than 24mm which is what I use anyway, but there is NOTHING you can do in post to fix the digital IS jitter. 

I say when you need to shoot at 16mm THATS when you should just use a gimbal for a camera with IBIS. For me that would be when shooting real estate and for real estate I actually do use a gimbal at all times.

 

5 hours ago, ade towell said:

I don't like using gimbles I want to be able to have the handheld look and IBIS helps smooth out jitters from these small mirrorless cameras without having to rig it out.

Canons IBIS isn't as good as Panasonic's and Olympus, it's their 1st attempt but I would still find it useful - the wobble effect is only on really wide shots where IBIS isn't so important anyway. But 35mm and above it is a great asset to have.

Exactly, everyone saying just use a gimbal hasn't walked in my shoes, or shot the projects that I work with on a daily basis. I have it all.....gimbals, monopods, tripods, sliders, etc and I literally cannot use any of them if I am shooting both photos and video for conferences, concerts, races, car shows, fashion shows etc. The only one I might be able to use is a monopod but even that would be a real PITA because I shoot portrait orientation for photos and landscape for video so I would need a special bracket to change orientations quickly and you can forget about quick low shots of say a car logo or a detail shot of a boat trailer. Not to mention a monopod puts a real crimp on creativity.

And like you mentioned, everyone breathing a sigh of relief that Canon removed their IBIS because it "fixes" the IBIS wobble are somehow celebrating that Canon failed to develop IBIS as good as Panasonic's, removed it, then replaced it with an artificial looking digital IS.

GoPro has the best digital IS I have ever used and I use it all the time for underwater video footage; and at times even it does some crazy warping thing that I have to throw away in post because it is impossible to fix.

 

7 hours ago, Emanuel said:

Back again to your post, I think any people's complaint on IBIS or lack of IBIS should end here in this video test, thanks for your post BTW even though anything may not surprise me there from what I've already tested myself using one and another but it's always interesting to know some other people are arriving to the same conclusions of ourselves : ) People cannot expect the best of each worlds. IBIS or digital stabilization helps SHAKY hands (IBIS wobble is connected with a physical solution, as simple as that : ) -- Period.

Other than that, buy a gimbal and stop whining. End of story :- )

 

I saw that video test, it did not change anything for me. OK, no IBIS is better for driving in a car with the camera mounted to the car......something I have literally never done in my 10+ yrs of filming. 

[herein2020]

2 hours ago, mrtreve said:

This is a nice example of the camera used in a doc setting.

It looks like 100% tripod / Ronin-S so they avoid the IBIS limitation there. I think the oversampled image looks great even on Youtube.

 

 

 

 

 

That is definitely the best footage I have seen out of the R5c so far, way better than Canon's own horrible intro video. It also really showcases the low light capabilities, skin tones in mixed lighting, and the incredible image quality. I also like that they did not use heavy color grading and let more of the natural quality show through. 

If that had been shot handheld I would literally pre-order one today. Funny thing is, with the S5, S1, or S1H the whole thing literally could have been shot handheld and would have been just as steady.

[kye]

1 hour ago, herein2020 said:

THIS is what people don't seem to understand when I say IBIS really is a big deal. THIS is exactly what I am talking about when I say I see horrible random jitter in all of the Canon digital IS clips I have watched if it was anything more than a slight pan or tilt.  I saw it in the C70 footage and I see it in the R5c footage.

I call it jitter, you call it blurring, but we are saying the same thing; digital stabilization looks very unnatural in more situations to my eyes than IBIS does and Canon's implementation of it is worse than GoPros and far worse than post processing like Davinci Resolve but the problem is it is baked into the footage. I can easily fix the IBIS wobble (which by the way I've literally never had a problem with when shooting on my S5) by shooting at a focal length longer than 24mm which is what I use anyway, but there is NOTHING you can do in post to fix the digital IS jitter. 

Thanks.  I was pretty sure that I was explaining it ok.

Maybe the reactions to a relatively straight-forward topic has revealed how Canon manages to sell its crippled cameras?  Bizarre.  I am literally speechless.

[Caleb Genheimer]

22 hours ago, gt3rs said:

I think they have messed up the spec.... on canon official there is no open gate unfortunately: 

https://www.canon-europe.com/cameras/eos-r5c/specifications/

 

Looks like it. Bummer if true. Usually B&H has the most no-nonsense tech info, but maybe they missed.

[Kino]

23 hours ago, gt3rs said:

I think they have messed up the spec.... on canon official there is no open gate unfortunately: 

https://www.canon-europe.com/cameras/eos-r5c/specifications/

 

Canon rep also confirms that there is no open gate, but leaves door open for future firmware (14:10):

 

[Django]

1 hour ago, herein2020 said:

 

That is definitely the best footage I have seen out of the R5c so far, way better than Canon's own horrible intro video. It also really showcases the low light capabilities, skin tones in mixed lighting, and the incredible image quality. I also like that they did not use heavy color grading and let more of the natural quality show through. 

That 8K RAW footage is really superb, especially with landscape shots like that. 

Love how the red pops, always a trademark of Canon CS.

Even the stills from the 8K footage are usable for web and maybe even print:

https://www.lauschsicht.ch/2022/01/19/canon-eos-r5c-erster-eindruck-review-und-film/

 

6 hours ago, ade towell said:

The external power needed to get 8k 60 is a bit of a bummer, the Anker power brick required is wider than the R5c. Now the compact camera has cables and other crap hanging off it and we're back to Franken rig. The little internal batteries don't seem to be able to run this camera for very long on some of the other shooting modes either. It will need external power.

Camera Labs tested 53mn of 8K24p shooting, which isn't bad at all. Add a battery grip and it gets quite decent.

ProAV also demo'd "power base" alternatives that you can use with dummy battery:

 

 

[kye]

5 hours ago, shooter said:

Emanuel is right. Are you comparing the digital digitalization in-camera of the new R5C with Resolve from footage of a different camera? This will lead to different results all around.

You know, I'm really looking forward to someone talking about the shutter speed on the R5C.  I mean, how does it work?  I know that the numbers are similar to other cameras, but I don't want to make any comparisons that get different results.  You've really opened my eyes about that, I mean when you take the exact same technology and take it from one device to another how can we really be sure that the fundamental principles will be the same?  Does a shorter shutter speed give a darker image, like on every other camera ever made, or is it different, maybe it gives a lighter image?  Maybe the colours start to go strange?  Maybe people who are happy get brighter?  How does the rotation of the earth factor in?  I wouldn't want to make a comparison that will give different results all around.

and what about ISO?  Are higher numbers better?  Does it go up and down?  Maybe the even numbers are good?  Once again, every other camera ever made works in the same way, but can we really compare?

I mean, what do we know about anything anyway?  None of us has ever used an R5C.  Maybe the images are from another camera and it's a hoax?

How can we know it really exists?

How can we know anything?

Are you real?

Am I even real?

[Emanuel]

1 hour ago, herein2020 said:

THIS is what people don't seem to understand when I say IBIS really is a big deal. THIS is exactly what I am talking about when I say I see horrible random jitter in all of the Canon digital IS clips I have watched if it was anything more than a slight pan or tilt.  I saw it in the C70 footage and I see it in the R5c footage.

I call it jitter, you call it blurring, but we are saying the same thing; digital stabilization looks very unnatural in more situations to my eyes than IBIS does and Canon's implementation of it is worse than GoPros and far worse than post processing like Davinci Resolve but the problem is it is baked into the footage. I can easily fix the IBIS wobble (which by the way I've literally never had a problem with when shooting on my S5) by shooting at a focal length longer than 24mm which is what I use anyway, but there is NOTHING you can do in post to fix the digital IS jitter. 

(...)

Exactly, everyone saying just use a gimbal hasn't walked in my shoes, or shot the projects that I work with on a daily basis. I have it all.....gimbals, monopods, tripods, sliders, etc and I literally cannot use any of them if I am shooting both photos and video for conferences, concerts, races, car shows, fashion shows etc. The only one I might be able to use is a monopod but even that would be a real PITA because I shoot portrait orientation for photos and landscape for video so I would need a special bracket to change orientations quickly and you can forget about quick low shots of say a car logo or a detail shot of a boat trailer. Not to mention a monopod puts a real crimp on creativity.

And like you mentioned, everyone breathing a sigh of relief that Canon removed their IBIS because it "fixes" the IBIS wobble are somehow celebrating that Canon failed to develop IBIS as good as Panasonic's, removed it, then replaced it with an artificial looking digital IS.

GoPro has the best digital IS I have ever used and I use it all the time for underwater video footage; and at times even it does some crazy warping thing that I have to throw away in post because it is impossible to fix.

(...)

I saw that video test, it did not change anything for me. OK, no IBIS is better for driving in a car with the camera mounted to the car......something I have literally never done in my 10+ yrs of filming. 

Your needs don't fit someone's else and vice versa. As much, kind of work, style, etc.. : )

I don't think people are celebrating the lack of IBIS or instead the digital stabilization. I am still waiting to read that. Where? ; )

I just see the test with the camera mounted to the car proves that can even be more effective than IBIS is, or the same at least for shaky shots, as for instance.

In my case, I don't give a damn if Canon's IBIS is inferior to any other competitor, no one pays me to be their fanboy and I don't need stabilization for anything other except when I'm using the gimbal and then no IBIS or any other method are any useful.

So? If they can offer you a product without a feature you don't need, seems to me a better deal to not pay an extra cost for something you don't need, isn't it?

IBIS or lack of it mantra can fit someone's cup but not everyone's.

It's all about that..

EAG :- )