Canon EOS R5C

[Emanuel]

On the other hand, we have the shills, not exactly here but spread nowadays on YouTube who kill all the valuable information we are used to find on a few places like a brand agnostic voice as EOSHD still is. I believe that's why this discussion is yet possible between both sides and you're not exactly flooded with the customary paid BS. At least here.

That said, I don't see anything wrong on taking ARRI ALEXA as parameter : ) Just committed with a couple of feature films shot along 1x Classic and 2x Mini for some good reason. Even though, in one of them, basically RED Dragon as preferred capture device other than the ALEXA Mini, mainly used for low light but not because the RED was not able to perform well as actualy was. Factually for narrative exigence, the circumstances were restricted to low light footage during the night time.

[kye]

I've re-read the last few pages of this thread and I'm pretty sure there's almost no actual communication happening, just people replying to something that they think the other person said (but often wasn't said and probably wasn't intended), forgetting what was said in previous posts, taking individual statements out of context, etc.

I've also realised that this is the case with every thread about a new Canon camera, although it doesn't seem to be the case with cameras from almost any other brand.  Something to reflect on.

@Django @Emanuel @Video Hummus

While I'm in a reflective mood I'll also say that I think that film-making is too complex a topic to discuss effectively, online at least, due to the sheer amount of interrelationships that happen (almost everything in film-making relates to almost everything else in some non-trivial way), and also due to the depth of technical knowledge required to understand what is going on.  I've read entire exchanges on things like "can I downres 8-bit to get a 10-bit image" where every post contained a factual error.  Concision is a real factor here too.

Anyway, I hope that everyone is putting more effort into what they do with their equipment than they spend talking about it.

[Emanuel]

Haha on this last one I fully agree with you : ) Albeit not in general on the first paragraph :- )

BTW and in order to be clear, you're one of the most enthusiastic and unforgettable contributors over here, so please keep going with your legit love for the pictures expressed among us. Enjoyable. If there is one who has this merit, this guy is you : ) Love to be your reader and follow your perspective.

There are other people to worth the same attention anyway, even with a different angle from yours. That's life and pretty healthy ; ) Cinema is also talking, in behalf of its improvement. Without it, no outcome to evolve or hardly serves for anything... To share is and will always be key, so thanks for sharing kye -- don't focus too much on this rhyme though ;- )

[Davide DB]

1 hour ago, kye said:

Anyway, I hope that everyone is putting more effort into what they do with their equipment than they spend talking about it.

Best quote of the year!

[mkabi]

4 hours ago, Davide DB said:

Best quote of the year!

You know that thats been said over and over again for several years now.

But, you know whats funny... eventually... for as long as I've been on these forums... on an individual level (I don't know about the rest of you all)... the need to argue about tech dies down, and for me atleast the tech outpaces my initial arguments and I want to go out and shoot more often... You got to be humbled by the advancements... think about what you are coming from... I'm coming from the 7D and 5D Mark 2 era... and all I wanted was 4K/24p and 1080/120p - look where it is now. I never asked for IBIS or Video AF.... I never asked for DR over 12. <- These are just bonuses. I know people would be surprised when I say this... but I've never used IBIS and none of my cameras have IBIS (I still use a tripod, a 4ft slider and for special cases a 4ft crane - I borrow an 8 ft crane from a friend).

[shooter]

The usual with every thread about a new Canon camera. People need to argue against cameras??

[Django]

Well at least it's got people talking. What are we on the 14th page of a product announced 5 days ago?

A7IV thread I started early September barely got to page 3?! Snooze.

Let's face it, this isn’t a very exciting time for the industry, still recovering from the on-going pandemic. Talking tech is part of doing the research, this isn’t exactly an affordable expense either..

That said, Canon is definitely the most polarising camera company when it comes to video.  And rightfully so with all the shenanigans we’ve lived through the years (blocking ML, being slow to adapt to mirrorless and of course the most recent overheat-gate).

But their strategy seems to be shaken up by RF mount, as they are eager to get people on-board including EF body Canon customers. The C70 with the Raw update will basically have the same exact IQ than the $11K C300 mk3.

And this 5RC? cmon it packs a lot of heat (pun intended) for a price point much lower than expected: 8K60, 5.9K, 4K DCI, 2.9K. RAW Light options, XF-AVC, full cine OS with WFM, false color etc. No overheating, no recording time limits. 45MP still monster. It’s actually the highest resolution cine line product yet priced at entry-level. Crazy. 

Perfect though, no. No IBIS & micro-HDMI. No ND’s (then again no hybrid does).

Not too many gotchas imo. YMMV.

[Video Hummus]

8 hours ago, kye said:

Anyway, I hope that everyone is putting more effort into what they do with their equipment than they spend talking about it.

Cheers.

[Video Hummus]

On 1/23/2022 at 1:24 AM, kye said:

Then @Video Hummus posts an OIS + digital stabilisation test but only mentions digital stabilisation:

On 1/21/2022 at 3:47 PM, Video Hummus said:

I guess I’m just looking at it as a sum of its parts. As I see it OIS is already achieving its maximum benefits with very tiny incremental improvements (you can only move the glass around in the barrel of the lens so much). Same with IBIS. The sensor can only shift so much. Digital IS is all done in software. It can use feedback from gyro, accelerometers, OIS, and IBIS to achieve better results, limit the crop, limit the wobble, etc…

I love IBIS. I’m not particularly bothered with it missing in the R5C because canon already has excellent lens OIS and I use native RF glass handheld. Digital IS helps a bit and is one button click away to disable. You can’t truly disable IBIS the way it is implemented in current cameras. There are no mechanical locks in place and a magnetic lock will still wobble with the kinds of magnets and power draw limits in cameras.

So each their own. 

[herein2020]

2 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

I guess I’m just looking at it as a sum of its parts. As I see it OIS is already achieving its maximum benefits with very tiny incremental improvements (you can only move the glass around in the barrel of the lens so much). Same with IBIS. The sensor can only shift so much. Digital IS is all done in software. It can use feedback from gyro, accelerometers, OIS, and IBIS to achieve better results, limit the crop, limit the wobble, etc…

I love IBIS. I’m not particularly bothered with it missing in the R5C because canon already has excellent lens OIS and I use native RF glass handheld. Digital IS helps a bit and is one button click away to disable. You can’t truly disable IBIS the way it is implemented in current cameras. There are no mechanical locks in place and a magnetic lock will still wobble with the kinds of magnets and power draw limits in cameras.

So each their own. 

 

I am looking forward to seeing more results from handheld tests by competent YouTube testers. The IBIS situation is the only thing that is keeping me from pre-ordering one. 

3 hours ago, Django said:

Well at least it's got people talking. What are we on the 14th page of a product announced 5 days ago?

A7IV thread I started early September barely got to page 3?! Snooze.

Let's face it, this isn’t a very exciting time for the industry, still recovering from the on-going pandemic. Talking tech is part of doing the research, this isn’t exactly an affordable expense either..

That said, Canon is definitely the most polarising camera company when it comes to video.  And rightfully so with all the shenanigans we’ve lived through the years (blocking ML, being slow to adapt to mirrorless and of course the most recent overheat-gate).

But their strategy seems to be shaken up by RF mount, as they are eager to get people on-board including EF body Canon customers. The C70 with the Raw update will basically have the same exact IQ than the $11K C300 mk3.

And this 5RC? cmon it packs a lot of heat (pun intended) for a price point much lower than expected: 8K60, 5.9K, 4K DCI, 2.9K. RAW Light options, XF-AVC, full cine OS with WFM, false color etc. No overheating, no recording time limits. 45MP still monster. It’s actually the highest resolution cine line product yet priced at entry-level. Crazy. 

Perfect though, no. No IBIS & micro-HDMI. No ND’s (then again no hybrid does).

Not too many gotchas imo. YMMV.

Canon is definitely the one with the most exciting releases at the moment (C70, R3, R5C). Panasonic seems like it is one foot from the grave, the Nikon Z9 has fantastic specs but I simply cannot even force myself to be interested in it, and Sony has never interested me.  

I think Sony made enough noise to finally convince Canon to put down the cripple hammer and start going all in not to mention they still have to compete against their own DSLR cameras that people like me are still holding onto.

[kaylee]

this is still a discussion on the hybrid camera with the 8 second delay right

[Rob6]

8 hours ago, kaylee said:

this is still a discussion on the hybrid camera with the 8 second delay right

I agree this is a big deal for shooters that constantly switch between both stills and video while working. I almost wish they could add the video modes on the photo side and just allow a button to go into video mode instantly while inside the photo operating system... basically how it works in the R5. I would even be willing to take less video recording options if it was too hard to code just so that I can switch instantly back and forth when needed. AND you would get the same kind of autofocus in video that you get with the R5. If you want the more "cinematic" autofocus then switch to the other video operating system. 

[Django]

The delay is there because the camera essentially reboots to a whole other OS when you switch modes.

Think of it as windows/Mac boot OS on a single computer.

I think its an ok tradeoff considering all the video options you benefit from the full C line OS (assist tools, shutter angle, LUT import etc).

Panasonic gives you a lot of that in their hybrid OS but Sony, Canon, Nikon, Fuji never and I hate that.

It's true that for hybrid shooters that need to switch modes at the blink of an eye (sports, action, news, wedding etc) an R3, Z9, A7S3, S1 would probably be better suited.

For all others including myself that don't switch modes so often and can accept an 8 sec delay it's a complete non-issue and a well-worthy tradeoff.

 

 

[herein2020]

48 minutes ago, Rob6 said:

I agree this is a big deal for shooters that constantly switch between both stills and video while working. I almost wish they could add the video modes on the photo side and just allow a button to go into video mode instantly while inside the photo operating system... basically how it works in the R5. I would even be willing to take less video recording options if it was too hard to code just so that I can switch instantly back and forth when needed. AND you would get the same kind of autofocus in video that you get with the R5. If you want the more "cinematic" autofocus then switch to the other video operating system. 

That would be great and in the CineD interview he mentioned that to  Canon, I am surprised Canon did not think of it on their own, if anything it probably would have been easier than ripping all of the video features out of the Photo mode.

Personally I shoot a ton of hybrid shoots but I don't really care about the delay, the events that I shoot aren't that fast paced and 8 sec sure beats going all the way back to my car to switch cameras.

[Andrew Reid]

2 hours ago, Django said:

The delay is there because the camera essentially reboots to a whole other OS when you switch modes.

Think of it as windows/Mac boot OS on a single computer.

I don't like to be forced into this split personality way of working really.

Imagine if you're on location in some beautiful place and want to capture stills at the same time as video, quickly before the moment's gone. You can't ask nature or streets to pause like a video game whilst you reboot into Video OS 2000.

It's one of these things that you just can't justify being forced into.

Even things like separate GUI or exposure settings between video and stills mode should be a matter of choice.

Quickest way to shoot both is to have an all-purpose stills mode, with PSAM and then a video button.

Samsung NX1 got it right. Tap a button to instantly get 16:9 frame in stills mode and to shoot video.

No matter how technically interesting it is to have a Cinema EOS OS and Stills EOS OS on one camera.... the benefits don't outweigh the amount of missed shots there will be.

If you want an identical shot in video mode and in stills mode, and nothing has changed in the light from one second to the next why would I want to change exposure or have to set the same exposure twice for two modes?

I could be snapping merrily away in stills mode, nailing the exposure and all other settings, then switch to video mode and it will be completely off because it had been set earlier for a completely different scene?

Who wants that?

2 hours ago, Django said:

I think its an ok tradeoff considering all the video options you benefit from the full C line OS (assist tools, shutter angle, LUT import etc).

Does the EOS R5 C actually offer all of that or is it a crippled subset?

Assist tools, shutter angle, etc. is on the GH5 since like 4 years ago?

S1H and Blackmagic have LUT support, and so on.

So how about adding all that to the EOS R5 C in a normal way?... there is no need to hive it off into a Cinema EOS operating system that takes ages to boot up.

2 hours ago, Django said:

It's true that for hybrid shooters that need to switch modes at the blink of an eye (sports, action, news, wedding etc) an R3, Z9, A7S3, S1 would probably be better suited.

This thing is targeted at them!

EOS R5 C is a hybrid cam!

2 hours ago, Django said:

For all others including myself that don't switch modes so often and can accept an 8 sec delay it's a complete non-issue and a well-worthy tradeoff.

I completely accept it may be ok for you.

I can only say that from my point of view it's a pretty big flaw!

[BTM_Pix]

In their promo video at the cued up point here, they dedicate a whole section of it to the "hey, switch to stills....hey, lets do video...hey, back to stills".

 

They make it appear to be seamless and pretty much instant when the reality is they should have shown this between each switch.

So whether you need it or not isn't the point for me, more that there's no need for such blatantly misleading bollocks from Canon in their promo video.

Mind you, its probably fixable in firmware as we know what they are like when it comes to timers don't we ?

[herein2020]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

 

If you want an identical shot in video mode and in stills mode, and nothing has changed in the light from one second to the next why would I want to change exposure or have to set the same exposure twice for two modes?

I could be snapping merrily away in stills mode, nailing the exposure and all other settings, then switch to video mode and it will be completely off because it had been set earlier for a completely different scene?

Who wants that?

 

I do find that part very annoying, with my S5 I share certain settings between photo and video mode; mainly the WB and aperture. The WB for example could be a custom WB set with an Expo Disc and with the R5C there's no way to share that with the other mode. The Aperture is in the same category, having to reset up the Aperture in an even moderately fast paced environment on the same camera would be a pain.

For the shutter speed I typically have different shutter speeds between photos and video because with photos I usually use a flash and with video I usually use continuous lighting or ambient light so that part wouldn't be a big deal.

I even think having two completely different OS's would be a pain when in use. The best solution would be to have kept all of the R5 video features for when you are in a fast paced run and gun environment and the Cinema OS when you are just shooting video that day. Having to navigate through two completely different menu systems like that would definitely slow me down and I'd have to rely on the Favorites menus to try to gain that speed back.

Of course I already do all of that now with two completely different cameras, but I find the S5's menu system to be more intuitive and customizable than the C200's Cinema EOS menu system.

[Django]

 

4 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Does the EOS R5 C actually offer all of that or is it a crippled subset?

Assist tools, shutter angle, etc. is on the GH5 since like 4 years ago?

S1H and Blackmagic have LUT support, and so on.

So how about adding all that to the EOS R5 C in a normal way?... there is no need to hive it off into a Cinema EOS operating system that takes ages to boot up.

The video mode definitely has all those C line features, as well as dual ISO which is pretty cool.

My guess is that porting all the cine features on top of the R photo OS was probably too CPU heavy.

It would probably make the stills mode boot 15 seconds which would be even more unnacteptable.

Pure speculation on my part, I could be wrong. No official explanation on that.

Panny & BM can do it it but they don't have an AF system even close to Canon's stills DPAF.  I wouldn't even consider BM proper hybrid tbh.

So yeah it's a tradeoff and I totally get how that can be a deal breaker for certain hybrid shooters.

And it's definitely sneaky of Canon not to make this point clear! That promo video is certainly misleading. 

I still think this is a much better effort than FX3 or Z9 that don't have assist tools like WFM, false color, LUT support, shutter angle etc.

[Django]

I should also mention I approach photo & video in a totally different way (flash & vertical for stills 95% of the time) so again the whole 8 seconds delay isn't an issue for me as I have to usually re-rig the camera when I'm switching from video to stills.

..all that being said, R6 + C70 is probably the combo I will go for vs all-in-one R5C.

But I honestly think Canon are changing the game with it and will hopefully pressure Sony/Nikon to include more cine features in their upcoming products than just resolution/codecs.

Panasonic/BM need to step up their AF game to even be in that competition as far as I'm concerned.

[TomTheDP]

Could be interesting but I've found the R5 dynamic range lacking even in RAW. The lack of ND's and the uselessness of 8k just make it an overall no for me. I'd take the C70 any day especially considering it will soon be able to shoot RAW internal and hopefully externally as well.

Not sure how the color on the R5 compares but I recently tested the C70 against the ARRI alexa and found it the closest match color and roll off wise I have ever seen in a "cheaper" camera.