Canon EOS R5C

[Trek of Joy]

On 12/13/2022 at 7:04 AM, gt3rs said:

25 fps, only lens IS, lens Canon RF 400 2.8 IS (rented). I don't use EIS as I'm RAW only other than when I need 120fps that I need to use 10bit log. 

On long lenses 70-200, 100-500 and 400 in my experience IS works better than IS+IBIS, and as you cannot turn off IBIS and keep IS on the R5 I always use the R5c for long lens work especially handled. 

Amazing! Having spent a lot of time in Africa and other wildlife areas I’m super jealous. Haven’t been able to get any really great leopard or jaguar content. Yet. 👍

cheers

chris

[Django]

@gt3rs incredible footage, just wow!

I've sold my R6 so I'm in the market for a new camera. S5II is on my radar but lens choice and system familiarity will probably keep me locked to Canon. Logical step was R6II but it is selling for 2900€ which is crazy considering I can get a brand new (grey import) R5 for 3200€ or an R5C for 3500€. Very little price difference in between these two currently.

I can't make up my mind though. R5 has got IBIS which is quite important to me and good battery life. And since the latest firmware there are no longer major overheat issues. Still some time limits though and I remember @herein2020 saying he had all kinds of quirks with his copy including major EVF lag.

Everything else I prefer on R5C, namely LUT support which is a game changer in quick-turnaround workflow for me and the separate stills/cine menus. I'm just concerned with absence of IBIS and the dreadful battery life.

I think you have both R5 & R5C but prefer R5C I assume mainly for 8K60p? 

I have very little use for that but I guess its still an added bonus.

Any other reasons why R5C is superior to R5 (aside from the cine OS extras)?

PS: R3 has also gone down on grey market (4600€) and really sounds like a good pro option. Stacked sensor. 6K60p RAW is plenty enough.  IBIS. Extensive battery life. Vertical grip might even come in handy for vertical video shooting which I'm doing more & more. Plus who knows I could maybe develop sports/action career !

[Ty Harper]

As someone that is about 6 months into owning an R5C, my only regret is not buying an R5 first. Only bcuz I'm doing alot of run n gun and handheld b-roll stuff and would've preferred the longer battery life and IBIS right now - although I plan on getting an R5 later this year. But my advice would be to wait if you can because the price of the R5C and R5 will probably drop even lower once the R5 II is released and who knows, maybe that's the cam for you (maybe even me).

Do remember though that if you go with the R5C there's a whole other bag of $$ you're gna need to spend on powering options. Personally I've settled on the grip (there's a cheaper third party option available now but comes with some cons I think) + FxLion Nano for proper shoots and an Anker Powerbank as a backup power source.

[Django]

Nah I can't wait for R5II. Need a new camera ASAP + R5II will probably retail around 4800€ here. 

[gt3rs]

@Django both are very good cameras with each some drawbacks.

For video my A cam is the R5c and B cam is the R5. Any framerate above 30fps the R5c is sharper and 120 you can record audio on an SD. So for my usage is better as I shot a lot in 8k 50 and slow mo.
XAVC, S35 RAW, Waveform, Peeking during AF, and face only AF, unlimited recording, being the other keys advantage of the R5c

On IBIS, in my experience it is super valuable between 30mm and 100mm but not good below 30mm and not really useful and sometime bad above 100mm. Here is the catch, as you cannot disable IBIS and keep IS on, the R5c with a wide angle IS lens is better than the R5 no wobble but you get IS. As I already posted with the 100-500, that I use a lot handled for video, I get better results in the R5c than the R5 as on the R5 sometime in fast pans it jumps and I think it is the IBIS.

I use quite a bit a gimbal for tracking shoot and there having IS but no IBIS at 24mm it creates a more stable picture, no wobble but yet IS helps with the small jitters.

Bottomline if you use a lot 35, 50, 85 primes then the R5 IBIS is super valuable for the reset especially with IS lenses in my experience is counterproductive.

 

This scene would not work with IBIS due to wobble, but IS helps on the gimbal with the vibrations, so R5c wins in this situations:

This one is handled with 100-500 on the R5c so only IS:

 

 

Battery is the biggest issue of the R5c, the grip solves it but is expensive and no support of 8k RAW 50/60, the alternative also expensive is half or full cage, smallrig small v mount plate and FXLION Nano One + kondorblue dummy battery (I use the USB-C cable when I do 8K RAW 50/60). But it makes the overall setup bulky and cumbersome the only good thing is that with two battery you basically go all day. So yes R5c battery sucks big time

Due to this the TCO of the R5c is more expensive than R5 and you really cannot use just 1 internal battery…

On the lag I really don’t see the problem, here a sequence of photos at 20fps all perfectly sharp and I could follow the player easily on the EVF, on my 1DX III I was not getting a 100% ratio in a sequence like this and less frames too: 

 

 

 

On the R3 I think is overpriced for what it is and I’m not going back to 20-24 mpix, I so much easy to be a bel to crop a bit so I can leave some safety room.

Why not buying a used R5 you can use it for a few months and see if it is perfect for your usage or not. If not you probably sell it for just a few euro less of what you paid? R5c used are quite rare....

[Django]

@gt3rs Thank you so much for such a detailed response! 🙂 

Price wise here are the best deals I've found:  3000€ (R5), 3500€ (R5C), 4500€ (R3). 

I need IBIS as I shoot indeed mainly 35mm/50mm/85mm. (with occasional 16mm).

I also need decent battery life and R5C + battery rig would price it not far from R3.

Downsides for R5 is line-skipped FF 4K60p & still some degree of overheat.

R3 has best battery life, 6K oversampled 4K60p, lowest RS, better low-light, best AF, best EVF etc..

MPix for stills is not important to me as I mostly do portraits and never crop.

So I am mainly leaning towards R3 for my needs as it just sounds like a solid safe bet. I shoot a lot of vertical (both stills and now video) so the grip form factor is really appealing. The long battery life, the stacked-sensor speed. Even the eye-control AF sounds awesome.

But you're right I could also start with an R5, it is the cheapest solution, and see if that works for me. 

If only R5C had IBIS and decent battery life it would be number one but as it is I have to rule it out completely I'm afraid.

[Kubrickian]

This was a good reminder for me on why I shouldn't be so dependent on IBIS. These are systems designed for still photography.

 

[Django]

Yeah I know about all those tips. I have an FS7 with no IBIS and use various techniques to stabilise.

He's using a huge URSA mini cine cam so not really relevant to the mirrorless world where small bodies need stabilisation.

I hate using gimbals and do a lot of handheld so IBIS + lens IS just works wonders for me.

But that does bring upon body size and ergonomics and that's imo another bonus for R3 imo. 

The bigger size and grip probably balances bigger EF/RF lenses better than the smaller R5/R5C/R6.

[gt3rs]

2 minutes ago, Django said:

 

But that does bring upon body size and ergonomics and that's imo another bonus for R3 imo. 

The bigger size and grip probably balances bigger EF/RF lenses better than the smaller R5/R5C/R6.

From my time with the 1Dx II and 1Dx III I would say no, it does not really help that much the grip. And you can always use the grip on a R5 but is a pita on gimbals and imo does not help that much...
For vertical then is a another story but with R5 8k why would you shot vertical instead of just cropping as you have even more room to reframe?

I'm not sure that the video improvements of the R3 are worth the 1.5k euro difference vs R5..... if you plan to use a lot 6k RAW 50/60 then yes if not then imo is an overpriced R6 II.... 
 

[Emanuel]

Guys, I love this thread but there is here one directly related on topic instead:

 

[Django]

2 hours ago, gt3rs said:

From my time with the 1Dx II and 1Dx III I would say no, it does not really help that much the grip. And you can always use the grip on a R5 but is a pita on gimbals and imo does not help that much...
For vertical then is a another story but with R5 8k why would you shot vertical instead of just cropping as you have even more room to reframe?

I'm not sure that the video improvements of the R3 are worth the 1.5k euro difference vs R5..... if you plan to use a lot 6k RAW 50/60 then yes if not then imo is an overpriced R6 II.... 
 

I don't use gimbals much, I would definitely be adding the grip to R5 plus two batteries which is about an extra 600€ so now we're looking at only a 900€ difference with R3.

As for cropping in 8K or 45mpix, well like I said I'm not a fan of cropping on FF cameras. I shoot wide open a lot, close subject portraiture, and cropping doesn't suit that aesthetic. But of course high resolution does allow it when you have to shoot landscape. 

You do raise a valid point about the 6K RAW. I didn't quite realise R3 didn't shoot 6K Mp4 files. Whereas R5 does 8K h26x right?

[herein2020]

On 1/12/2023 at 2:41 PM, Django said:

@gt3rs incredible footage, just wow!

I've sold my R6 so I'm in the market for a new camera. S5II is on my radar but lens choice and system familiarity will probably keep me locked to Canon. Logical step was R6II but it is selling for 2900€ which is crazy considering I can get a brand new (grey import) R5 for 3200€ or an R5C for 3500€. Very little price difference in between these two currently.

I am with you on the S5II, fantastic in every way, but too late for me. Once you buy that first RF lens you are locked in way more vs an adaptable EF lens. Not sure if it matters to you, but one big thing the R5 is lacking vs the R6II and R7 is the hybrid hotshoe for audio. 

 

On 1/12/2023 at 2:41 PM, Django said:

@herein2020 saying he had all kinds of quirks with his copy including major EVF lag.

Everything else I prefer on R5C, namely LUT support which is a game changer in quick-turnaround workflow for me and the separate stills/cine menus. I'm just concerned with absence of IBIS and the dreadful battery life.

I think you have both R5 & R5C but prefer R5C I assume mainly for 8K60p? 

I have very little use for that but I guess its still an added bonus.

Any other reasons why R5C is superior to R5 (aside from the cine OS extras)?

PS: R3 has also gone down on grey market (4600€) and really sounds like a good pro option. Stacked sensor. 6K60p RAW is plenty enough.  IBIS. Extensive battery life. Vertical grip might even come in handy for vertical video shooting which I'm doing more & more. Plus who knows I could maybe develop sports/action career !

I think I got my quirks worked out with that final EVF setting that was added as an option in one of the FW updates. Also, it is winter here in FL so I have been using the R5 more for video. I just completed a commercial shoot and used the R5 as a B cam to the C70 instead of the R7, mainly because the R5 already had the 70-200mm on it and I needed that lens for the shoot.

The R5's IBIS is definitely amazing, I can easily handhold the R5 with the RF 70-200mm at 200mm and it looks like its on a tripod; not for long periods but enough to get the 30s or so that I typically need. In fact, the only camera that I've ever shot with that has even better IBIS ironically is the R7 (not counting GoPros). The R7 is the first camera I've ever shot with that I can walk for brief periods and it looks like I am using a gimbal when paired with the Canon EF 24-105mm F4 IS L lens.  For the commercial shoot the only lens I used on the R5 was the RF 70-200mm and it was all handheld, no problems getting the tripod like stability I needed for all of the shots.

As far as vertical shooting goes, I really dislike small cameras and I shoot vertical (for photography) about 90% of the time since I am mostly filming people, so the battery grip for the R5 really fixes everything for me (makes it bigger, adds battery life, adds vertical shooting buttons). 

IMO, I would definitely pick the R5 over the R3 any day, and just add a battery grip to it (which is exactly what I did). Another feature that I really like for photography with the R5 is that those 45MP files when using cRAW are actually smaller than the 32MP files that used to be produced by my 5DIV. 

To me the R3 is just too focused on sports/action and you pay a lot for that. It does have some great video side benefits and of course I've never heard anything about overheating with the R3. I'm still not 100% convinced it is fixed in the R5 for Florida summer heat.

6 hours ago, Django said:

You do raise a valid point about the 6K RAW. I didn't quite realise R3 didn't shoot 6K Mp4 files. Whereas R5 does 8K h26x right?

Its kind of funny, I have kept the R5 in 4K HQ mode since I got it (which disables and hides all of the 8K options in the menu), so I never bothered looking at the 8K options, I thought it only shot 8K RAW, but somewhere mixed in with all of those FW updates it now has RAW, RAW Light, ALL-I, IPB, and compressed IPB for 8K.  Unless you have an M1 Mac,  you would definitely need proxies for the compressed 8K files. 8K RAW though I can edit with no problems in DR.

Below were the available recording times with a 51GB CFExpress card in the R5 when set to 8K-D (8192x4320) @ 29.97FPS or 8K-U (7680x4320) @29.97FPS:

8K RAW - 24m 19s 

8K RAW Light - 37m 15s

8K ALL-I - 49m 55s

8K IPB - 1h 35m 32s

8K Compressed IPB - 3h 11m 11s

The 8K compressed IPB almost looks small enough to be useable to me, I might have to try it out one day on a shoot.

[Django]

@herein2020 Thanks for the feedback, good to know you've sorted out your issues with R5!

Well 8K compressed definitely tilts the balance more in R5 favour now. 

I really don't get why R3, the flagship doesn't have at least 6K ALL-I/IPB. Sounds like a real oversight.

Only problem I have with R5 is the line-skipped FF 4K60p.

It looks like for up to 4K60p R3 & R6ii are the best options. For higher resolution its R5/R5C followed by R3.

Decisions, decisions.

[herein2020]

2 hours ago, Django said:

@herein2020 Thanks for the feedback, good to know you've sorted out your issues with R5!

Well 8K compressed definitely tilts the balance more in R5 favour now. 

I really don't get why R3, the flagship doesn't have at least 6K ALL-I/IPB. Sounds like a real oversight.

Only problem I have with R5 is the line-skipped FF 4K60p.

It looks like for up to 4K60p R3 & R6ii are the best options. For higher resolution its R5/R5C followed by R3.

Decisions, decisions.

I really don't think the line skipped 4K60p is that big of a deal; its not like its obvious within the video. IMO only during side-by-side comparisons and even then only when you zoom into a scene which has fine detail is the differences even visible.  Obviously, yes on paper non-line skipped is better, but in practice I personally don't see a difference.

Of course if you are shooting at the TV commercial level with perfect lighting, full rigging, and fine details, then yes in those scenarios 4K60 line skipped might be noticeable, but at least for my projects its perfectly fine.

I know you can't wait that long, but I get the feeling the R5II is going to come along and really set the bar to another level, maybe the R6II would be a good stopgap until then since you consider the R7 a downgrade. 

I think if I had to do it all over again I would get the C70, R7, and wait for the R5II.  

This video is a mixture of 4K60FPS (line skipped) and 4K30FPS HQ (down sampled from 7K), using the R7 and I don't even remember which was which without looking at the source project. I would imagine the R5's line skipped 60FPS is even better but in most side-by-side comparisons, the IQ out of the R7 is nearly identical to the R5 at ISO800.

 

 

[gt3rs]

13 hours ago, Django said:

@herein2020 Thanks for the feedback, good to know you've sorted out your issues with R5!

Well 8K compressed definitely tilts the balance more in R5 favour now. 

I really don't get why R3, the flagship doesn't have at least 6K ALL-I/IPB. Sounds like a real oversight.

Only problem I have with R5 is the line-skipped FF 4K60p.

It looks like for up to 4K60p R3 & R6ii are the best options. For higher resolution its R5/R5C followed by R3.

Decisions, decisions.

R5c 4k60 is oversampled from 8k so same quality as the 4k 30HQ.
Yes R3 has only RAW in 6k while R5c and R5 have also 8k h265. But RAW in general is easier to edit but it really depends on the software and the machine, of course it takes more storage.

R5 4k 60 and 120 are not the best in class but I do agree with @herein2020 that are more than usable.
As pointed out by herein2020 R5 does not have the new hotshoe so you cannot use the Tascam xlr thingy.... not sure is a topic for you or not.

 

[Django]

Ok back to R5C. Taking a closer look at it and it does have a lot going on for it, including various crop modes, various RAW compressions, XF-AVC, 8K/5.9K/3K, anamorphic de squeeze, LUT support, focus assist etc. And active cooling (bye-bye overheat for good). I mean its basically like a high resolution C70 without NDs plus a 45MP camera. For 3500€. 

It's almost a no brainer on paper but I keep hearing about the dreadful battery life. I just have to wonder how bad is it? If the camera keeps dying on me this sounds like overheat caveat all over again. How many batteries do I need for a 4 to 5 hour shoot ? what portable USB-C external power works for it ?

Losing IBIS is going to suck but for handheld shoots I guess I could go for the IS RF STM lenses  (24mm, 35mm, 85mm) plus DIS.

Basically if I can sort out battery life and stabilisation, R5C could be the top contender.

17 hours ago, herein2020 said:

I know you can't wait that long, but I get the feeling the R5II is going to come along and really set the bar to another level, maybe the R6II would be a good stopgap until then since you consider the R7 a downgrade. 

Yeah I can't wait until R5ii and also Canon Europe will sell it with a premium just like R6ii which basically means 5K.

R6ii is 2900€ here which is equally ridiculous considering I can get an R5 now for 3000€ and an R5C for 3500€.

I'm trying to get best bang for buck which means not the latest Canon release.

[Ty Harper]

@Django consider buying the grip (which also gives you better overall cam balance imo) and make sure you have 6-8 LPE6NH batteries, a dual LPE6NH portable charger with USB chargeability + some kind of powerbank that will allow you to charge batteries in the field. The grip gives you 2 hours and with all the aforementioned stuff you should be good for a 6-8 hour shoot - particularly one with no access to a power outlet. 

[gt3rs]

47 minutes ago, Django said:

It's almost a no brainer on paper but I keep hearing about the dreadful battery life. I just have to wonder how bad is it? If the camera keeps dying on me this sounds like overheat caveat all over again. How many batteries do I need for a 4 to 5 hour shoot ? what portable USB-C external power works for it ?

 

The LPN6NH would give you around 50 min of continuous recording or 60 min standby and this is the real issue. No matter what it chews battery, one trick is that if you hit play then it does not chew battery in standby.
Two LPE6NH in the battery grip it will give you around 100+ min continuous recording. So for 4-5h you probably need at least 4 LPE6NH battery. 

If you don't care about 8k 50/60 one solution is kondor blue dummy battery https://kondorblue.com/products/d-tap-to-canon-lpe6-dummy-battery-cable  and if you have V Mount battery already you are set to go. A FXLion Nano One (one of the smaller V Mount battery around) gives me around 3h or recording a normal V Mount probably 6h+. The advantage of the dummy battery you don't risk to break any ports. I use this setup but with the FXLion that has a USB-C port too so when I use 8k 50/60 I simply plug the USB-C cable. 

USB-C you need a power bank that is 45w and there are now very common and quite cheap, smallrig has some mounting solutions https://www.smallrig.com/smallrig-holder-for-portable-power-banks-bub2336.html . The big issue is the fragility of the USB-C port so either you use the supplied cable protector (piece of crap) or at least an half cage and the small rig cable protector (more solid + you can have a full HDMI too). 
A 45w power bank will also charge the batteries while plugged in to the camera.

Bottom-line the more elegant solution is the battery grip, no need for a cage, no dangling cables, no ports to be broken. But no 8k50/60.

So my solution is no LPE6 at all, cage + dummy battery + FX Lion One Nano + USB C when needed. But ugly and expensive...
I wish they would do a battery grip that would supply enough power for 8k 50/60 then all this frankenmonster would be over...

[Django]

yeah I don't need 8K60p. so lets see, the grip + battery solution is elegant but expensive and you still need to swap batteries during the day:

3500€ body + 400€ grip + minimum 400€ (for 4 batteries). boom we're talking R3 money.

Kondor Blue Dummy battery ($40) to FXLion V-mount (180€) seems way more affordable plus no battery swap.

How is the V-mount attached to the cage? Almost looks like your on a hot/cold shoe.

What about Anton Bauer base battery kit (370€)? I like that it has quick release with mount holes. seems pretty elegant and they have a kit with dummy battery to P-Tap. 68Wh capacity should give you even more runtime than the FXLion?

[gt3rs]

9 minutes ago, Django said:

yeah I don't need 8K60p. so lets see, the grip + battery solution is elegant but expensive and you still need to swap batteries during the day:

3500€ body + 400€ grip + minimum 400€ (for 4 batteries). boom we're talking R3 money.

Kondor Blue Dummy battery ($40) to FXLion V-mount (180€) seems way more affordable plus no battery swap.

How is the V-mount attached to the cage? Almost looks like your on a hot/cold shoe.

What about Anton Bauer base battery kit (370€)? I like that it has quick release with mount holes. seems pretty elegant and they have a kit with dummy battery to P-Tap. 68Wh capacity should give you even more runtime than the FXLion?

I have this https://www.smallrig.com/smallrig-eos-r5-r5c-r6-black-mamba-camera-cage-3233b.html (there is also this one https://www.smallrig.com/smallrig-black-mamba-camera-cage-for-canon-eos-r5-c-3890.html  for the R5c version but covers the remote terminal and I need that for remotes ) this smaller one also would work https://www.smallrig.com/smallrig-black-mamba-camera-half-cage-cable-clamp-for-canon-eos-r5-r5-c-r6-3656.html

And this to mount the battery on top of the cage: https://www.smallrig.com/smallrig-mini-v-mount-battery-plate-2987.html
The setup is clumsy but very solid.

The grip here in CH went down to around 300 euro and you need 3 battery as one comes with the camera so around 600 euro. The R3 you would also need 1 more battery too.


The anton bauer is also an option, it is bigger and is heavier at 700g vs 300g of the FXLion Nano One (although if you add the cage ca 300g and the mount were are basically the same) but it does not have USB PD so for me is a no go. The FXLion Nano Two is 98wh and 520g will run for 5-6h. The Nano can be charged with any USB-C charger make it very practical. 
Would the anton bauer have USB-PD I would have probably gone that route. New there is this option too that 
Kondor blue offer that would make the anton bauer also PD enabled but the cable seems quite clumsy :  https://kondorblue.com/products/16-d-tap-to-usb-c-9v-3a-regulated-blue-braided-straight

A small anton bauer base + 9v dummy battery to dtap would be also a great solution but does not exist.

If you want to risk you could mount a 45w battery pack on the hotshoe and run the USB-C probably with 100 euro you cover all but for what I do is way too risky.

As you can see I did a lot of research, my solution works for me but is not great.
I still feel that a battery grip is the best option if no use of 8k 50/60. You can research a bit and some people have good luck with non oem LPE6 that are cheaper than the original.