Canon EOS R5C

[kye]

17 minutes ago, Ty Harper said:

As he mentions at around the 50sec mark, the Digital IS shines at around 35mm and gives good tripod like shots when hand held, and that's it. In my experience with the R5C and R5, I think IBIS, DIS, etc are really only good for that - and that alone. For everything else you need a gimbal, simple and plain. So in that sense, imo, I don't think the R5's IBIS is a feature that gives it much of an advantage over the R5C's DIS as they both can give you good handheld static shots. If I had fully understood this I probably would've saved up for another used R5C instead of buying the R5.

I noticed he said that, but to me it makes little sense.  

1) He said the shot looks like a tripod shot, yet it clearly has handheld motion

2) The shot he shows has both IOS and DIS enabled, and although he doesn't give a comparison on the 35mm, the other shots comparing different modes showed no real difference between the OIS only and OIS+DIS shots

3) Your conclusions about needing a gimbal may apply to your work and to the R5, but don't necessarily apply to the wider film-making environment.  The IBIS on the GH5 has a 'Locked' mode which really does look like a tripod, but the non-locked mode is much more reminiscent of a handheld heavy cinema camera to my eye, having movement but no jitter.  When you add a lens with OIS to get IBIS+OIS in what Panasonic call Dual-IS, the result is somewhere between a handheld heavy cinema camera and a gimbal, and can be very effective in harsh conditions, or can provide gimbal-like results in easier ones.

What surprises me is the poor performance of the DIS on that guys clips.  GoPros, for example, are DIS-only and are gimbal-like, so it is possible to get very high performance.  Perhaps Canon have implemented a very limited crop, or similar?

[Ty Harper]

32 minutes ago, kye said:

Your conclusions about needing a gimbal may apply to your work and to the R5, but don't necessarily apply to the wider film-making environment.

Of course, which is why I made sure to say "imo" and "in my experience". 

[Ty Harper]

59 minutes ago, kye said:

1) He said the shot looks like a tripod shot, yet it clearly has handheld motion

And yet he seems to think it's too tripod-like, lol, so I don't even get what he's looking for. To be clear, I agree that the Digital IS on the R5C is nothing to brag about at all. I think handheld it can give you good static shots with seemingly pleasing movement - but even that requires some degree of familiarity with the cam itself (which he didn't seem to have). Point is no one should be buying the R5C for its in-camera stabilization (I keep it off most of the time) - and I'd say the same for the R5 as well. They're both great cams (particularly the R5C which is so feature-rich otherwise, imo!) but as you say, there are cams out there with better stabilization features.

[gt3rs]

5 hours ago, kye said:

What surprises me is the poor performance of the DIS on that guys clips.  GoPros, for example, are DIS-only and are gimbal-like, so it is possible to get very high performance.  Perhaps Canon have implemented a very limited crop, or similar?

Gopro, uses a tiny sensor with extremely short lens and very high shutter speed. The movement magnification of a FF with a 35mm compared to a Gopro is just a complete other order of magnitude. 
Unfortunately any digital stabilization requires a high shutter speed to be more effective, put a ND on a Gopro and 1/50 and the great stabilization is gone.... 



In my experience, and I posted multiple times, any lens above 70mm that has IS for video performs better on the R5c than R5 (in my case 70-200, 100-500) and I do a lot of handled, of course I'm not walking or running, for this you need a gimbal.

Below 35mm on the R5 you will get wobble effect especially if you walk or pan rather fast. So a R5c with an IS lens wins here. 

IBIS is very useful from 35 to 70mm on non IS lens. I use quite a bit a 28-70 2.0 that does not have IS and I tend to use it handled on the R5 or on Gimbal on the R5c (there is really no contest against a gimbal if you walk.... gimbal wins by huge margin).

I did test but I never use Digital IS, I prefer to stabilize in post in Resolve if needed. I also shoot mostly in RAW so Digital IS is not available. Would be cool if Canon would embed the gyro data so we could do digital IS in post, but if you look at Sony catalyst or Gyroflow both requires high shutter speed to be effective.


Probably for @Django the question would be how well it compares R5+IBIS+RF 24-70 vs R5C + RF 27-70, handheld both static and walking. Unfortunately I don't have an RF 24-70.... but once I should try with the RF 35 1.8 IS to see...

 

[Ilkka Nissila]

19 hours ago, Django said:

So I've now tested out the Z8 and like I said in that thread, I got mixed feelings about it. I love the body size, build quality, LCD hinge system.. but I hate the UI, menus, layout. N-Log is a can of worms with currently horrible rec709 LUTs that kill DR and boost saturation. Camera has weird quirks like no IBIS when adapting certain lenses and other options that get greyed out depending on settings. The AF is a little sluggish. Etc. I guess to me its a great camera on paper but not really for me in actual use (I've found that to often be the case with Nikon cams).

IBIS with non-CPU lenses works if you type in the focal length and maximum aperture into the list of non-CPU lenses that you use. This includes mechanical-only lenses that don't have electrical contacts.

 

https://onlinemanual.nikonimglib.com/z8/en/sum_non-cpu_lens_data_guid-fac0444d-3965-c25a-4c18-84574cb10167_285.html

 

After typing in the data for the non-CPU lenses, you can then select from the list the actual one that you are using and the data is recalled. This can be programmed to a custom function button.

 

The AF speed in video recording is adjustable:

https://onlinemanual.nikonimglib.com/z8/en/csmg_af_speed_guid-a4c4cd1b-0ad3-5c90-eac7-5c2fb524a4b5_247.html

 

and tracking sensitivity also:

 

https://onlinemanual.nikonimglib.com/z8/en/csmg_af_tracking_sensitivity_guid-54657d66-753f-7fcb-b56b-2b78446094a0_248.html

 

For me the video AF has been excellent on the Z8.

[Emanuel]

2 hours ago, Ilkka Nissila said:

IBIS with non-CPU lenses works if you type in the focal length and maximum aperture into the list of non-CPU lenses that you use. This includes mechanical-only lenses that don't have electrical contacts.

 

https://onlinemanual.nikonimglib.com/z8/en/sum_non-cpu_lens_data_guid-fac0444d-3965-c25a-4c18-84574cb10167_285.html

 

After typing in the data for the non-CPU lenses, you can then select from the list the actual one that you are using and the data is recalled. This can be programmed to a custom function button.

 

The AF speed in video recording is adjustable:

https://onlinemanual.nikonimglib.com/z8/en/csmg_af_speed_guid-a4c4cd1b-0ad3-5c90-eac7-5c2fb524a4b5_247.html

 

and tracking sensitivity also:

 

https://onlinemanual.nikonimglib.com/z8/en/csmg_af_tracking_sensitivity_guid-54657d66-753f-7fcb-b56b-2b78446094a0_248.html

 

For me the video AF has been excellent on the Z8.

Reposted in the right thread... BTW, we know R5C has no overheating issues. What about the Z8?

[Django]

4 hours ago, gt3rs said:

Probably for @Django the question would be how well it compares R5+IBIS+RF 24-70 vs R5C + RF 27-70, handheld both static and walking. Unfortunately I don't have an RF 24-70.... but once I should try with the RF 35 1.8 IS to see...

 

Yeah I'm interested in knowing how R5+IBIS compares to R5C + lens IS mostly for handheld static shots and some slow movement. The best results I've had so far with the 24-70mm is with R3 thanks to that bodies weight distribution and ergonomics with the vertical grip. 

Would love to know your assessment of the R5 vs R5C with the RF 35mm IS. Let me know here when you try that!

3 hours ago, Ilkka Nissila said:

IBIS with non-CPU lenses works if you type in the focal length and maximum aperture into the list of non-CPU lenses that you use. This includes mechanical-only lenses that don't have electrical contacts.

 

https://onlinemanual.nikonimglib.com/z8/en/sum_non-cpu_lens_data_guid-fac0444d-3965-c25a-4c18-84574cb10167_285.html

 

After typing in the data for the non-CPU lenses, you can then select from the list the actual one that you are using and the data is recalled. This can be programmed to a custom function button.

 

The AF speed in video recording is adjustable:

https://onlinemanual.nikonimglib.com/z8/en/csmg_af_speed_guid-a4c4cd1b-0ad3-5c90-eac7-5c2fb524a4b5_247.html

 

and tracking sensitivity also:

 

https://onlinemanual.nikonimglib.com/z8/en/csmg_af_tracking_sensitivity_guid-54657d66-753f-7fcb-b56b-2b78446094a0_248.html

 

For me the video AF has been excellent on the Z8.

Good to know about the IBIS! I do think its great that Z8 can lock its IBIS on & off. Best of both worlds depending on situations. The wobble effect you get on wide angle lenses can ruin shots so that is very handy feature to have.

As for video AF, I only had a short time with the Z8 but I did try a few AF speed settings and again my experience was that the AF was a little sluggish in certain situations compared to Sony/Canon. It is still very usable, just not as blazing fast & smooth as the competition. Especially compared to R3 which has the fastest, stickiest eye-AF I've witnessed. 

[Emanuel]

IBIS is the selling point of the Nikon.

I believe with no much overheating issues or an efficient workaround we're set.

[kye]

6 hours ago, gt3rs said:

Gopro, uses a tiny sensor with extremely short lens and very high shutter speed. The movement magnification of a FF with a 35mm compared to a Gopro is just a complete other order of magnitude. 

I've seen people say things like this before, but it never made any sense.  Digital image stabilisation is a data processing operation done by a chip - you give it a stream of digital video and it does it's thing and gives you a modified stream of digital video.  It wouldn't matter if the source of the video was a GoPro or an array of telescopes the size of the entire planet - it's data crunching.

[gt3rs]

17 minutes ago, kye said:

I've seen people say things like this before, but it never made any sense.  Digital image stabilisation is a data processing operation done by a chip - you give it a stream of digital video and it does it's thing and gives you a modified stream of digital video.  It wouldn't matter if the source of the video was a GoPro or an array of telescopes the size of the entire planet - it's data crunching.

Is physics just try with your ASPC or FF camera disable IS whatever, move the camera with a 15mm and then with a 150mm you will see how much more movement, EIS would need much bigger crop, blur will be much more between frames and larger sensor (in general) will have more rolling shutter issue that also affect the software stabilizing.
Gopro lens is like 2.9mm not 15mm.... so the movement between frames is not that severe to start with and will have way less motion blur although to work well still need high shutter speed. 
 

[gt3rs]

https://docs.gyroflow.xyz/app/getting-started/common-filming-tips-and-issues

[kye]

11 hours ago, gt3rs said:

Is physics just try with your ASPC or FF camera disable IS whatever, move the camera with a 15mm and then with a 150mm you will see how much more movement, EIS would need much bigger crop, blur will be much more between frames and larger sensor (in general) will have more rolling shutter issue that also affect the software stabilizing.
Gopro lens is like 2.9mm not 15mm.... so the movement between frames is not that severe to start with and will have way less motion blur although to work well still need high shutter speed. 

That makes sense but has nothing to do with sensor size, it's lens FOV.  

Shutter speed also makes sense, but only so much that the edges can be detected easily, which would have been easy on that test clip of the guy as he was crisply in focus and contrasting sharply with the background.

[gt3rs]

8 hours ago, kye said:

That makes sense but has nothing to do with sensor size, it's lens FOV.  

Shutter speed also makes sense, but only so much that the edges can be detected easily, which would have been easy on that test clip of the guy as he was crisply in focus and contrasting sharply with the background.

It is the sensor size that dictates the lens length in mm for the same FOV. 

Let's assume you need the same framing so the same FOV of ~150°, Gopro needs a ~2.9mm lens, APSC ~9.5mm lens, FF ~15mm lens. FF 15mm will have more shake and blur than 2.9mm.
It is not the only reason but it also a key aspect why 360 cameras have even better stabilization than Gopros. Insta360 X3 has a FF 6.7mm equivalent where Gopro is FF 12mm equivalent.

Now if you take in consideration that Gopro is 12mm FF equivalent, rarely you will film with a FF at 12mm but more > 24mm this challenge is even bigger. 

Also the smaller the sensor size the less rolling shutter issue tends to have (assuming similar tech), as an example Gopro has a rs of 1/240 in video mode that is twice as fast as the fastest "consumer" FF camera A7s III at 1/120... 

I'm sure EIS could do better that the current status especially if you would allow much bigger crop, use really high shutter speed and have faster sensors but for the moment it cannot compete with Gopro size sensors.

[kye]

8 hours ago, gt3rs said:

It is the sensor size that dictates the lens length in mm for the same FOV. 

Let's assume you need the same framing so the same FOV of ~150°, Gopro needs a ~2.9mm lens, APSC ~9.5mm lens, FF ~15mm lens. FF 15mm will have more shake and blur than 2.9mm.
It is not the only reason but it also a key aspect why 360 cameras have even better stabilization than Gopros. Insta360 X3 has a FF 6.7mm equivalent where Gopro is FF 12mm equivalent.

Now if you take in consideration that Gopro is 12mm FF equivalent, rarely you will film with a FF at 12mm but more > 24mm this challenge is even bigger. 

Also the smaller the sensor size the less rolling shutter issue tends to have (assuming similar tech), as an example Gopro has a rs of 1/240 in video mode that is twice as fast as the fastest "consumer" FF camera A7s III at 1/120... 

I'm sure EIS could do better that the current status especially if you would allow much bigger crop, use really high shutter speed and have faster sensors but for the moment it cannot compete with Gopro size sensors.

Yeah, this isn't making any sense.  I think you're confused about how EIS actually works, although the RS considerations make sense and would be relevant.

Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread.  The EIS on the Canon wasn't very good and I was surprised.  I don't really care though, so carry on!

[gt3rs]

57 minutes ago, kye said:

Yeah, this isn't making any sense.  I think you're confused about how EIS actually works, although the RS considerations make sense and would be relevant.

Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread.  The EIS on the Canon wasn't very good and I was surprised.  I don't really care though, so carry on!

You are the one confused that has no idea why a gopro or insta360 or DJI Osmo have a much more effective image stabilization than Sony (including Catalyst) Nikon, Canon, etc. 
 

Is called physic and the longer the lens the bigger the shake will be amplified, it will have more motion blur, much bigger delta between same pixel and more rolling shutter effect due to sensor size, and the result is not comparable.
 

So please don’t call me confused when you have zero explanation why…. 

Btw I wrote software in the past for images alignment so I kind of know how eis algorithms works

[Django]

Here is a short blurb about Canon's various IS systems: 

https://www.canon.co.uk/pro/infobank/image-stabilisation-lenses/

I really think IBIS + OIS grants excel results on Canon systems.

Not a big fan of EIS in general as it crops the image but IBIS+OIS+EIS is almost gimbal like.

I agree with @gt3rs about sensor size + focal length having a great influence on IS. 

Not to mention action cams are rarely handheld so really not a great basis for comparison.

Anyways, another IS question for those owning R5 & R5C: do you notice a big difference in stills?

The image results I got from the R5's IBIS + RF 24-70mm f2.8 IS were just so sharp even at lower shutter speeds.

According to that Canon article that specific combo enables 8-stops of IS.

Should I expect much worst photography results if I were to go with R5C? I'm just a little worried because at 45MP sharpness really matters.

 

 

 

[Django]

On 7/2/2023 at 1:13 PM, gt3rs said:

As I shot 90% RAW (25,50) and 10% xfavc 4k 120 ….it is still THE issue for me, no 8k 50 with grip and forced to use the usb port. A dummy dtap battery with the right voltage or a new grip would solve the isse but nobody offere these…. I don’t mind using a small vmount battery but the usb port is a real pita….

So still currently only USB-C battery solution in order to use for 8K50p? What's the voltage needed and what options are out there?

[Emanuel]

53 minutes ago, Django said:

So still currently only USB-C battery solution in order to use for 8K50p? What's the voltage needed and what options are out there?

Straight from my bookmarks:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CcSnQZ4vqnl/

Canon R5C USB PD External Power - Power for 8k60 using USB PD- Record times on the Anker Power Bank | Anker USB Power Bank | FXLion Nano 2 Power bank + other adapters on the description

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1596728-REG/anton_bauer_8075_0271_p_tap_to_canon_9v.html

https://www.usa.canon.com/shop/cameras/camera-accessories

Canon R5C - Compact Rig & Battery Solutions

 

Hope it helps!

(still on Z8 wagon though for now... even though, overheating issues really concerns me!)

[Django]

Thanks although some of those solutions don't seem available any longer (anker 45w power bank).

Again what are the exact 8K60p power requirements? I know we've discussed this earlier in the thread but I don't feel like going through +35 pages lol.

As for the Z8, it is great that it can power 8K60p from its internal battery but yeah I've seen some 8K tests getting the camera to overheat in 10mn which is a concern. Other test show 25mn. I think the Z9 doesn't overheat and with second hand prices being around what a Z8 costs I think Z9 might be actually be a better choice if you don't mind the weight too much.

[Ty Harper]

1 hour ago, Django said:

Again what are the exact 8K60p power requirements? I know we've discussed this earlier in the thread but I don't feel like going through +35 pages lol.

Have no idea and I wager most owners don't either, lol - just get an FX-Lion Nano One (or Nano Two) or the Smallrig VB50 or VB99.

But this guy does great analysis of the R5C and says Canon has not given any official details about the exact requirements (he discusses all this in the second chapter of this video) - so basically it seems like we just know what works and what doesn't: