Canon EOS R5C

[BTM_Pix]

23 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I see it repeated a lot that heat held the EOS R5 back.

Did you not witness the explosive climax of the story though?

With the battery pull trick, timers, not reading temp until a firmware update, 2 hours of continuous 8K, Philip bloom's cats escaping a fire, Magic Lantern, EXIF data, wi-fi apps and all the rest?

How can people be so forgetful?!

Canon rep at the launch whilst simultaneously neglecting to mention the 8 second delay when switching modes between stills and cine whilst also taking some of the AF capability from you.

 

 

[Emanuel]

2 hours ago, mkabi said:

If you check out Kai's video where he tests O.I.S + E.I.S... it isn't half bad.... in my opinion.

Looks like pretty decent the electronic stabilization with a few myriad of settings : ) I must confess I feel myself tempted to buy it... who knows? ; ) These Canon cameras are a tank, inside me there's still a happy 5DII camper... This time there's no overheating excuse, well done Canon !

Separated stills mode doesn't bother me at all :- )

[Emanuel]

As side note, I support people's criticism no matter what... Without it, we hadn't arrived to this model, count on it :- )

[kye]

1 hour ago, Emanuel said:

I agree with Ben but I guess kye is also right when claims there's no actually need for ultra high-definition race, except for reframing and/or large format printing IMO : )

I believe frame rate will be the next trend for upcoming camera generations, what else? ; ) Low light, HDR look like to follow the resolution mantra :- )

You might be right about the next race being frame rates, but sadly there's not a lot of creative space left there either.

The way I see it is:

• 24/25/30p = normal.  Some might distinguish between 24/25 and 30p, but it's subtle
• 50/60p = emotional.  Motion looks the way that it looks when we experience heightened states of emotion and "time slows down"
• 120p = special effect.  Motion looks like a special effect, with things hanging in mid-air artificially, ripples moving through objects surreally, etc.  It's potentially only useful creatively to simulate extreme drug use or be used outright as a special effect for the spectacle of it.
• >120p is the same as 120p only some things happen faster and you have to slow them down more, but the aesthetic is the same.  

I'm not saying there is no benefit to, say, 500fps or 1000fps over 120p, but the times you'd need it are few, and the look is the same as 120p, so it's not anything "new".

[Django]

@kye I use 240fps A LOT on my FS7. I'd even say I use way more than 4K60 even though its FHD. It does wonders on liquid shots and sport/action. My clients really love it. Its true its not a HFR we see a lot even in todays latest hybrids. I'll admit sometimes whip out the FS7 for this feature alone!

 

[herein2020]

6 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Sort of the same...but slightly different...

I went from tripod  (various predecessors) to freestanding monopod (XT3) to handheld (S5 and S1H) because for my needs, the speed/flexibility of IBIS is key.

I have however just treated my S5 to a Crane 3 gimbal to give it a bit more flexibility. It's now going to be living on a tripod (with the gimbal and everything locked), but I've mounted it on a QR plate so it can go into gimbal mode whenever required and takes around 10 seconds to unlock, switch on etc.

I am opposed (for my needs) to:

Monopods/tripods if and where possible.

Gimbals. (I've tried twice before and hated it, but this new Crane 3 for the first time is small and light enough I can justify it for the 5% of the day I will actually use it and for under 400 euros, brings something of value to the table).

External rigging of monitors/recorders. 

External battery packs. OK, I have one welded to my tripod for such times any camera is on a tripod, but otherwise...

Surely, ALL Canon had to do here was add a fan to the back of the R5, maybe charge 500 extra and job done?

Otherwise I don't understand. Any of it...

Please please please Panasonic bring PDAF to your next line of S1/S5/Swhatever cameras and/or Fuji, just get the XH2 right and one of you will get my money next time round/possibly 2023.

But the R5C, - it WILL and DOES have appeal to some people, but they are very few people which means Canon either really are stupid, or they really are playing a very stupid game. Either way, I can't give them any of my money, so that is a fail on their part.

A very common gig for me is shooting a conference, car show, boat race, fashion show, etc. For those events I am typically hired to do everything by one of the vendors or sponsors (video, photos, drone photos, drone video, short interviews with some vendors, etc). 

My current setup is to stage all of my gear somewhere, sometimes in my car, sometimes behind the DJ booth, etc. and run back and fourth shooting stills with the 5DIV then shooting video with the S5 then back to the 5D. With the R5c I would be able to have a single body and just switch back and fourth from photos to video. What those gigs do not give me time to do is fiddle with gimbals and tripods and monopods. To make it even better; I live in FL and a lot of events are on the beaches where it is impossible to sit anything on the ground without getting it covered in sand so you have to hand hold your gear for the whole event. 

So for the people saying IBIS isn't a big deal it really wouldn't be if I was shooting stationary interviews, or mostly video, or always had the luxury of a gimbal. But for me and my particular use cases and typical gigs it is a bigger deal than for people who mostly use stabilization equipment. It remains to be seen at least to me if Canon's digital IS + lens IS is a sufficient replacement for IBIS. I'd rather continue with my current setup than have a camera that I cannot stabilize handheld.

[Video Hummus]

16 hours ago, kye said:

The form-factor and external power requirements will make it less attractive to productions that can afford a cinema camera like a C200 or C300, and the lack of IBIS will make it less attractive to low-budget single-shooters.  

Clearly this camera is not for large productions and large productions know exactly what they want. So I've they buy this cameras as an A cam they are idiots. That's what the C500 Mark II is for or any other suitable A-cam cinema camera.

With regards to IBIS: assuming Canon solicited feedback it was clearly not a high priority feature request. GH5S didn't have IBIS either.

17 hours ago, kye said:

but try and make an argument that 8K60 is more important than, well, anything....

You could make that argument about 4K 5 years ago. 8K is beneficial for many things: better downsampled footage, VR, effects.

 

14 hours ago, herein2020 said:

Gordon Lang did a better test and it was still jittery.

Gordon Lang has very shaky hands. I've seen it in other videos as well when he is just holding up something to camera.

[Video Hummus]

10 hours ago, seanzzxx said:

We use the r6 and r5 as b cams for video at work. If you’d shot with them for any amount of time you know the ibis is not up to the task for professional work. The amount of times we got back to see weird warps on our footage is simply too high to trust it.

This is probably why they removed IBIS in the first place. People complain about IBIS wobble all the time.

3 hours ago, gt3rs said:

Now is the same quality or even better than the R5?

I believe its the same quality as R5, ie line skipped or pixel binned of some sort. It still looks really good.

[Django]

I disagree the IBIS on R5/R6 is really good. Obviously on a ultra wide angle walking you're going to get wobbles, it's not miraculous or a gimbal but for locked shots and careful movements using normal lens it works great, especially combined with lens IS. 

I'm pretty sure removing IBIS was a segmenting decision. or cripple hammer if you prefer. In order to protect R5 and C70..

[herein2020]

46 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

This is probably why they removed IBIS in the first place. People complain about IBIS wobble all the time.

I believe its the same quality as R5, ie line skipped or pixel binned of some sort. It still looks really good.

Maybe Canon's IBIS just isn't as good as Panasonic's considering it was their first attempt at it. I typically shoot at 24mm+ on my S5 and have never had IBIS wobble at those focal lengths; instead of removing it maybe they just need to improve it. For wider lenses if you turn IBIS off it fixes it. I do think digital IS has a lot of potential and can easily be better than the best IBIS; especially if it were combined with some kind of gyro metadata system like I've seen demo'd; but to me it looks like Canon's digital IS just isn't that good yet or maybe someone with steady hands and proper technique just hasn't posted a YouTube review video yet.

From what I've seen so far, the digital IS seems to introduce more jitter into the footage in more situations than IBIS does unless it is turned way up with a serious crop; at least with IBIS the only problems I've ever encountered are with wide angle lenses. Of course YouTube playback could also be part of the problem, it will be great to see a dedicated digital IS test with the R5c.

 

56 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

With regards to IBIS: assuming Canon solicited feedback it was clearly not a high priority feature request. GH5S didn't have IBIS either.

Another possibility is Canon didn't have a choice due to heat concerns. Yes the GH5S didn't have IBIS but the S1H does; so possibly the GH5S didn't sell that well or possibly Panasonic's IBIS is simply better than Canon's or it can be turned off in a way to where the sensor is stable when the IBIS is off.

32 minutes ago, Django said:

I disagree the IBIS on R5/R6 is really good. Obviously on a ultra wide angle walking you're going to get wobbles, it's not miraculous or a gimbal but for locked shots and careful movements using normal lens it works great, especially combined with lens IS. 

I'm pretty sure removing IBIS was a segmenting decision. or cripple hammer if you prefer. In order to protect R5 and C70..

 

I will almost believe the heat excuse, maybe in the time they were given to make the R5c and the way they completely missed the mark with overheating in the R5 maybe they went to the other extreme and ripped out IBIS to make certain it does not overheat. But without IBIS this camera ends up in a really strange place as others have mentioned. I do think it would be awesome if the digital IS were improved to be better than IBIS.

[Django]

51 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

I will almost believe the heat excuse, maybe in the time they were given to make the R5c and the way they completely missed the mark with overheating in the R5 maybe they went to the other extreme and ripped out IBIS to make certain it does not overheat. But without IBIS this camera ends up in a really strange place as others have mentioned. I do think it would be awesome if the digital IS were improved to be better than IBIS.

Maybe but I'm not sure I buy the heat excuse. Not with a fan on-board but who knows. Could also be price, IBIS would certainly add a few hundred bucks. In the end no C line camera has ever had IBIS and I guess that isn't changing anytime soon. Maybe we'll see it on a R5C mk2? 

[kye]

3 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

You could make that argument about 4K 5 years ago. 8K is beneficial for many things: better downsampled footage, VR, effects.

I disagree that it's the same.  

Firstly, the human eye has limits, and depending on a range of factors those are somewhere between 2K and 4K.  Most of the time publishing in anything over 4K will be a complete and utter waste of time, with exceptions being things like Omni, which are super rare.

The downsampling argument is reasonable but the GH5 downsamples from 5K to 4K, and has been doing so since 2017, and there are very serious diminishing returns that kick in for this.  Downsampling 8K to 4K would not have much advantage over downsampling 6K to 4K for example.

VFX is fine, but how many productions were saying "we need 8K RAW for VFX but somehow couldn't just rent an UMP12K" or "we shoot VFX on so many productions that it's commercially viable to buy a R5C, but we couldn't justify buying a UMP12K".  I totally understand that there are lots of shooters who would like the form-factor of a R5C and wouldn't be able to use a UMP12K, but these users are not heavy VFX users.  It's a different audience.

VR is a completely different beast and this is where resolution really does matter (because that 2K limit to human vision is over a narrow FOV) but anyone filming VR isn't using a R5C to do it.  They're using a dedicated VR camera like the Insta360 Pro 2, which means no messing around with lenses, sensor plane alignments, inter-eye distance calibration, etc etc etc.

Fast forward a bit and think about the statement "we need 24K because it's the year 2030" and see how ridiculous that is.  Therefore there's a point at which mostly we have enough resolution for most things on most cameras.  That point is now in our rear-view mirror...

[gt3rs]

On the ProAV live stream with Canon they did answer a lot of questions.

For powering the R5c over USB-C you need a PD 45w (btw exactly the same as the R5)

Apparently you may get away with 8k 50 RAW with the internal battery if you don't use hot shoe accessories and depending on the lens IS apparently looking forward to see some tests. 8k 60 only manual focus and manual aperture lens works with the internal battery. The original R5 battery grip does not help other than more run time.

They explain a bit that IBIS as it cannot be locked is not good for video. I have also seen issue with my R5 when on gimbal and car and the wobble on wide angle lens. But I also love it above 35mm as it almost acts as tripod. I wish they would have a fully lockable IBIS.  

Up to 60p is all oversampled even HD from 8k, 4k 120 is not and is the same as the R5.

[ajay]

From what I understand when using the R5C in video mode, the autofocus is not Dual Pixel CMOS AF II. it is Dual Pixel CMOS AF / iTR AFX. If this is true, will it suffer from the same autofocus issues found on the C70? I have not seen anyone who has/had the camera really test the autofocus to its fullest. It seems to be a spec that has been overlooked by all the giddiness out there.

[Django]

17 minutes ago, ajay said:

From what I understand when using the R5C in video mode, the autofocus is not Dual Pixel CMOS AF II. it is Dual Pixel CMOS AF / iTR AFX. If this is true, will it suffer from the same autofocus issues found on the C70? I have not seen anyone who has/had the camera really test the autofocus to its fullest. It seems to be a spec that has been overlooked by all the giddiness out there.

It's been noted, also Canon rep had this to say in the ProAV stream chat:

Quote

The AF is not the same as the C70. It's the same as the XF605 with eye AF and improved performance

 

[herein2020]

Ok, so I consider this a good representation of both the AF and handheld by someone who shoots for a living (vs reviews gear). It was still hard to tell how stable it is hand held since he was adding a lot of deliberate camera movement, he also did not mention if he had digital IS on or how far it was turned up, but the AF was impressive and for once I did not see that jitter from handholding without IBIS.

 

 

53 minutes ago, ajay said:

From what I understand when using the R5C in video mode, the autofocus is not Dual Pixel CMOS AF II. it is Dual Pixel CMOS AF / iTR AFX. If this is true, will it suffer from the same autofocus issues found on the C70? I have not seen anyone who has/had the camera really test the autofocus to its fullest. It seems to be a spec that has been overlooked by all the giddiness out there.

A lot of people are now saying that the R5 also does not have DPAF II for video, and that DPAF II is only for photos and that the AF in the R5c is much better than in the C70. No idea what is true at this point.

 

1 hour ago, gt3rs said:

They explain a bit that IBIS as it cannot be locked is not good for video. I have also seen issue with my R5 when on gimbal and car and the wobble on wide angle lens. But I also love it above 35mm as it almost acts as tripod. I wish they would have a fully lockable IBIS.  

I have seen the same on the S5...anything over 24mm is tripod steady handheld.

[BenEricson]

7 hours ago, kye said:

Are you noticing this look from the RAW as well?

If not, it's rather odd and indicates perhaps excessive NR perhaps?  If it is in the RAW then that's even more strange and I really would know where that would be coming from...

Pretty positive this is due to noise reduction. If raw has "more noise," then there will certainly be more texture and gradation. The Komodo can be REALLY noisy if exposed poorly, but it also has more detail and color. The benefit of the Canon is that it is basically dummy proof. It looks good in 95 percent of situations. You certainly don't need any post noise reduction.

I'm not completely sure what this means. Maybe this is a way to get the noise reduction fully removed from the camera. Record in the raw and just use the 10 bit files without the NR?

10 hours ago, kaylee said:

this is the elephant in the room.

wheres my 5d3 raw color? "clay" is right, skintones seem flat with no depth or translucency

Exactly. Or 1DC.

[ajay]

15 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

A lot of people are now saying that the R5 also does not have DPAF II for video, and that DPAF II is only for photos and that the AF in the R5c is much better than in the C70. No idea what is true at this point.

I just found that too. Maybe it's a non-issue. Thanks.

[Video Hummus]

5 hours ago, kye said:

the GH5 downsamples from 5K to 4K, and has been doing so since 2017, and there are very serious diminishing returns that kick in for this.

The R6 downsamples from 5K too and there is a clear difference between the image in clog3 from R6 and from R5. R5 has better noise control with the 8K -> 4K oversample. I see no downsides to oversampling if it doesn't impact RS.

5 hours ago, kye said:

Firstly, the human eye has limits, and depending on a range of factors those are somewhere between 2K and 4K.

Well get on the phone to Canon, Sony, Fujifilm and the rest and let them know. There are some clear benefits in signal processing that have nothing to do with how the human eye works. I am in agreement that we don't need to be racing to 24K because we can. Dynamic range is a far more important factor but has things stand DR is very slow to improve.

[kye]

4 hours ago, BenEricson said:

Pretty positive this is due to noise reduction. If raw has "more noise," then there will certainly be more texture and gradation. The Komodo can be REALLY noisy if exposed poorly, but it also has more detail and color. The benefit of the Canon is that it is basically dummy proof. It looks good in 95 percent of situations. You certainly don't need any post noise reduction.

I'm not completely sure what this means. Maybe this is a way to get the noise reduction fully removed from the camera. Record in the raw and just use the 10 bit files without the NR?

Sounds like shooting RAW is the solution then.  

It's a pity, as RAW makes you have huge file sizes or dramatic sensor crops, but it's better than nothing I guess.  Maybe you could also go old-school and partner these with an external recorder that does a high-end Prores variation?

21 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

Well get on the phone to Canon, Sony, Fujifilm and the rest and let them know. There are some clear benefits in signal processing that have nothing to do with how the human eye works. I am in agreement that we don't need to be racing to 24K because we can. Dynamic range is a far more important factor but has things stand DR is very slow to improve.

The manufacturers know that resolution above 2K is borderline invisible - the problem is the consumer market which is uneducated and thinks that MORE = BETTER.

Just look at threads like this and see how many people are asking about the quality of the 2K codecs and modes.......  none.  But every time there's a new camera oh boy are people interested to know if there's a 2% difference in something that makes zero difference whatsoever.

There's a phrase in business 'what gets measured gets managed' and resolution gets measured and image quality most certainly does not.