Crunch Time For Panasonic Autofocus

[jgharding]

So you may have see that Olympus latest M4/3 camera the OM-D EM1 iii (I'm not sure I could come up with a worse name as a joke) has "1053 phase-detect Cross Quad Pixel AF". 

I feel this is going to be the make or break generation for Panasonic. I recently bought a b-cam for the S1H and went for a Sony, not a Panasonic S5, due to the AF alone. In the latest Sony bodies it is nigh-on flawless for interviews, you can leave it on its own, wide open and it doesn't miss a beat. On the S1H i pull it myself, and the massive HDMI delay means I have to use the tiny screen to do it. Rumours for GH6 say it still uses DFD autofocus, now adding "AI" to the end of it and claiming this works five-times better. Which I assume means a future S body will also have some variation of DFD too... I'm waiting to see what happens, but don't have too much hope. If it isn't as good as Sony's I don't think I'll stay in the system regardless of Panasonic's superior colour and DR.

I do know the mantra "pros don't use AF" but that's just untrue in the real world, it's typical forum dogma. Pro does not just mean "working with a massive crew for a cinema film or Netflix", it means making a living from moving image making. Not everyone has a focus puller, most people don't. Professional crews are smaller these days, and AF is really useful in more circumstances than not and thus translates to sales, which translates to camera being supported, updated and made in the first place. I'm not just speaking for myself when I say AF is going to end up making me pick an inferior image quality for more convenience, it's all over the Panasonic groups too, loads of people jumping to second hand A7S3.

As much as one can worry about cameras, I worry that Panasonic will stick rigidly to their contrast AF, pretending as they do that it is usable for video or even in the same league as their competitors... I get it, it allows the sensor to remain unadulterated, but as it stands it just... doesn't work. I'd love to be proven wrong but... I think I'm out of faith.

I just think it's such a weird hill to die on. We know the other system works. Why persist with trying to fix something broken, when you could switch to a system that performs said function properly?

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, jgharding said:

So you may have see that Olympus latest M4/3 camera the OM-D EM1 iii (I'm not sure I could come up with a worse name as a joke) has "1053 phase-detect Cross Quad Pixel AF". 

I think you'll find that the new camera is the OM Systems Olympus OM-1 and the camera name you have quoted is a couple of years old, but otherwise, yes, Panasonic are probably doomed unless they sort the AF out.

I'm not part of the tin foil hat brigade but the few individuals who do have their heads screwed on, don't make up enough of any market to really influence it.

The simple reality is Panasonic have a fundamental marketing problem that comprises 2 parts:

Part A is that their 'ambassadors' seem to be jumping ship in recent times, mostly I presume as they individually wish to move to other camera systems.

Part A2 is that none of them are trendy YouTube influencers.

Part A3 is that they do not allow comments on any of their official channels, ie, kill any kind of community, so all 'community' is unofficial channels such as Facebook groups and a handful of YouTubers.

Part B is the AF tracking issue. It doesn't matter whether it's real or not real or it's adequate in some instances or total shit in all, it's a HUGE reputation/marketing issue directly affecting sales.

And before anyone says, "how do you know it's affecting sales?"

Because it's fucking obvious to anyone who has even the slightest understanding of how business works!

The bottom line is it may already be too late and it's just a question on time now, but the issue isn't contrast vs phase IMO, but simply one of whether it works or not that is the issue.

I don't care if the next gen is DFD, providing the AI bit does what they claim.

And what they claim is slightly vague... 5x faster.

5x faster than what?

I don't know if they even said 'faster' but they have stated it's 5x something along those lines and implying they have something they are confident in.

I hope so anyway, because I'm also a S1H/S5 user for video (and S1R for stills) and really don't want to have to move to another system for a whole load of reasons.

And am not as things stand, at least for this year, but at some point, new kit will happen because I'm a business user and what I have will not work forever.

Let's see what the GH6 is first and go from there...

[projectwoofer]

I’ll only buy a new Panasonic camera if I can get continuous AF with my Helios 44M. Everything else is for amateurs.

[Video Hummus]

52 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

contrast vs phase IMO, but simply one of whether it works or not that is the issue.

Nailed it. They can maybe get away with DfD in the GH6 but if their next FF S-series camera does not offer a major upgrade to AF reliability, consistency, and performance then I am of the opinion LUMIX will be on its way out. We now have cheaper cinema level cameras available with less need to buy something like the S1H for cheaper and put up with its limitations. Other video people, driven mostly my YT'ers, will buy something with amazing AF like a Sony or Canon, and maybe even Fuji.

It is literally the only feature that matters for them. They have all the rest. But it will remain a mystery why they don't put PDAF in their cameras.

At this point it would make a good investigative documentary. 

[MrSMW]

Maybe it’s a corporate level suicide pact? 🤪

[jgharding]

3 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I think you'll find that the new camera is the OM Systems Olympus OM-1 and the camera name you have quoted is a couple of years old, but otherwise, yes, Panasonic are probably doomed unless they sort the AF out.

Yeah TBH I'm not great with M4/3 I don't follow too closely these days, so likely I've gotten it wrong.

I'm with you 100%. Damn the image is good, and it is like a baby Alexa, which obviously doesn't have AF. But AF is SO convenient.

I just got back from a shoot with it and a ZV E10 B-cam, and the ZV E10 was wide open 85,, 1.8 the whole time, never missed focus on the face for a moment. There's no way in hell I could do that! 

Yes if the new DFD AI really does work then that'll be great, but this is the same company that released a 40 page manual on how to use video CAF in the S1 series, and just seems to believe it works when it basically doesn't.

I only own one L lens, which I bought for CAF, and TBH I wish I had just bought an EF equivalent for that, as I have ever since I realise the AF was poor. That's a terrible advert for a lens system really. I've zero intention of buying any more of their very expensive lenses til AF works, otherwise I may as well just go get the vintage glass out of the cupboard

[aaa123jc]

After using the Sony A7S3 in one occasion, I quickly realized how reliable and convenient modern AF systems have become. It makes me question why I have decided to stick with my FS7 and not upgrade to a A7S3 or FX3 (well, because I have no budget😆). The new AF system just saves so much time. 

Why Panasonic still doesn't offer a good AF system is beyond me. Almost always the improvements on the AF system are for stills. For stills, that system is great. Very accurate and fast. Somehow the AF for video mode is just bad, and in my experience, worse than even some older contrast detection AF systems. I suspect the problem is not entirely the DFD system. 

Panasonic cameras are always very close to a perfect camera. IMO, they just have to fix the AF system, and they can easily out sale other brands. 

[jgharding]

22 minutes ago, aaa123jc said:

Panasonic cameras are always very close to a perfect camera. IMO, they just have to fix the AF system, and they can easily out sale other brands. 

yeah that's what i mean. the CUSP of perfection... on AF system away from it.

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, aaa123jc said:

Panasonic cameras are always very close to a perfect camera. IMO, they just have to fix the AF system, and they can easily out sale other brands. 

I don’t think simply fixing the AF situation alone would be enough.

It would be a start, but then needs some shouting about as a brand/system.

My fingers are crossed, but I’m not holding my breath.

The ‘savior’ of the DFD could be computing power from what I understand…but that’s not something I know too much about.

GH6 will be an indicator. 

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

18 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I don’t think simply fixing the AF situation alone would be enough.

It would be a start, but then needs some shouting about as a brand/system.

My fingers are crossed, but I’m not holding my breath.

The ‘savior’ of the DFD could be computing power from what I understand…but that’s not something I know too much about.

GH6 will be an indicator. 

Specially because, as the GH5 II got some features using the S5 processor, probably the GH6 have the same processor that will be used in the next generation of their L mount cameras.

[Andrew Reid]

I agree on the importance of AF.

Especially in a mirrorless camera.

In terms of the market, Blackmagic seems to have got a free pass though. Shit AF all round from them, and nobody complains and the cameras sell like hot cakes.

So what's going on?

Sony, Canon and Nikon all AF obsessed and producing very capable systems in both video and stills mode. Fuji is patchy.

I thought maybe it's Sony patents holding Panasonic to ransom, or past mistakes. But then a literal Olympus CORPSE comes out of a graveyard and gives us Quad Pixel phase-detect AF on sensor.

It's absolutely bizarre the whole thing isn't it?

As for GH6, I have one but am under NDA so can't say anything about it until it launches for real.

[Andrew Reid]

20 hours ago, jgharding said:

I only own one L lens, which I bought for CAF, and TBH I wish I had just bought an EF equivalent for that, as I have ever since I realise the AF was poor. That's a terrible advert for a lens system really. I've zero intention of buying any more of their very expensive lenses til AF works, otherwise I may as well just go get the vintage glass out of the cupboard

Indeed, when given the choice between buying a Sigma lens in E or L mount, one of the big reasons for buying a modern lens rather than using classic stuff is AF. So if they can't sort out AF, the entire mount dies. No rush then!

[projectwoofer]

30 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

As for GH6, I have one but am under NDA so can't say anything about it until it launches for real.

!!!!!!!!!

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

As for GH6, I have one but am under NDA so can't say anything about it until it launches for real.

How many PM's have you received asking if you can only just give them a few clues and they won't tell anybody honest/

Have you received mine?

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

2 hours ago, MrSMW said:

How many PM's have you received asking if you can only just give them a few clues and they won't tell anybody honest/

Have you received mine?

@MrSMW, full leak in the GH6 thread.

The camera is so S1Hish that I can see you itching. 🙂

[kye]

9 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

As for GH6, I have one but am under NDA so can't say anything about it until it launches for real.

Looking forward to your thoughts, I'd imagine you're scanning the threads for the questions people are curious about.

Are you allowed to confirm when the release date will be?

[MrSMW]

13 hours ago, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

@MrSMW, full leak in the GH6 thread.

The camera is so S1Hish that I can see you itching. 🙂

Well based on what I have seen/has been revealed so far, I prefer the OM-1.

GH6 for the win for pure video almost certainly.

For stills/hybrid use, probably the OM-1 based on what we know so far...

Right now, I'd take the OM-1 system as it suits my needs better; a smaller, lighter, more compact package with great AF compared with a larger, heavier, less compact set up with unknown AF.

Andrew might/probably has the answer regarding the latter already 🤐

I guess probably slightly more expensive GH6 bodies, but that wouldn't bother me too much in the overall scheme of things...

The only real negative for me would be regarding stills. I don't care what anyone says but there is no way on Earth any M4/3 matches my FF 47mp S1R in that department. Can't deny physics!

[jgharding]

 

 

20 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I thought maybe it's Sony patents holding Panasonic to ransom, or past mistakes. But then a literal Olympus CORPSE comes out of a graveyard and gives us Quad Pixel phase-detect AF on sensor.

It's absolutely bizarre the whole thing isn't it?

As for GH6, I have one but am under NDA so can't say anything about it until it launches for real.

Thats great news!

One request from me: the AF test in the leaked video is the old "run back and forth in the middle of the camera" one, complete with lots of lovely pulsing bokeh lights. Its not really that useful tbh, whats more useful i think is "can it hold focus on someone chatting while they lean in and out reasonably naturally on a wider and a  longer lens", as thats one of the most common uses both center frame, and a more natural interview framing.

Whether vlogging, shooting interview, shooting and actor, thats what you need for the most part and is what Sony do with aplomb.

If one was after a monster M4/3 cam itd be hard to turn down the new OM1 with some of those specs AND good AF. Its an interesting sector again in that regard, though I did always think the point of M4/3 was both lower price and small size. As they get bigger and more expensive a bit of charm is lost, and you start to think "well I may as well have full frame then".

[BTM_Pix]

1 hour ago, jgharding said:

One request from me: the AF test in the leaked video is the old "run back and forth in the middle of the camera" one, complete with lots of lovely pulsing bokeh lights. Its not really that useful tbh, whats more useful i think is "can it hold focus on someone chatting while they lean in and out reasonably naturally on a wider and a  longer lens", as thats one of the most common uses both center frame, and a more natural interview framing.

 

One of the AF features that I spotted on the leaked GH6 video is that it appears to have a focus limiter function that looks very similar to the one that (*own trumpet blowing alert*) I have in my AFX product.

On the AFX, you store a near and far focus point and it will only respond to subject movement between those two distances. So you can define the range of movement of the interviewee, put it in AF-C mode and guarantee that it won't go off focusing on things in the background etc. 

With judicious use of the aperture you can set near and far distances up in such a way that you have enough overall focus range to have a safety net without massively comprising the shallow depth of field aesthetic.

It remains to be seen how Panasonic have implemented their limiter in terms of it is just for AF-S but if it is AF-C like the AFX then it is a boon for interview applications in particular.

The AFX also has a separate absolute limiter function so you can selectively limit maximum AF-C focus range to, say, 2 metres which can negate a lot of the AF issues which present themselves when people are vlogging both indoors and outdoors.

Not sure if Panasonic have implemented that in the GH6 too though.

 

 

[kye]

On 2/17/2022 at 6:17 PM, jgharding said:

Its not really that useful tbh, whats more useful i think is "can it hold focus on someone chatting while they lean in and out reasonably naturally on a wider and a  longer lens", as thats one of the most common uses both center frame, and a more natural interview framing.

I agree.  AF testing is one of the tests that is done the least realistically and also the least consistently.

I'd prefer someone like DXO or similar to setup an automated test that simulated the various common scenarios can be repeated reliably between various cameras, lenses, firmware updates and various modes.