Canon C70 User Experience

[Mmmbeats]

On 2/27/2022 at 3:38 PM, M_Williams said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "DOF remains the original DOF." It would be the same as if you mounted the lens on a full-frame sensor camera, but the DOF would be shallower with the speedbooster than if you used a regular adapter on the C70's sensor. The 1-stop extra light and shallower DOF go hand-in-hand; can't have one without the other.

 

On 2/28/2022 at 1:44 AM, herein2020 said:

You are incorrect, the speed booster adds a stop of light so it turns a 50mm F1.4 into a 50mm F1.0, however, the DOF is still the same as an F1.4, vs a true F1.0.

You are both correct, as this is just a different way of describing the apparent DoF.

@herein2020 is technically correct (yes, yes everybody - 'the best kind of correct' 😉), and @M_Williams is correct for practical purposes.

DoF is in fact the same whether using the speedbooster or not.  However, in order to achieve the same framing on the 50mm lens example you would have to alter the distance between the camera and the subject, thus altering the DoF.

I much prefer herein2020's way of stating it, but I have come to acknowledge that endlessly explaining this introduces just as much confusion as it clears up. 

[Mmmbeats]

In other news - I just purchased a C70, which I will be collecting on Monday 😍.

[Django]

12 hours ago, herein2020 said:

I still am not 100% convinced the C70 has more DR than the S5, if anything I would say they are even, but the AF is so good even is good enough for me. 

Cined measures 12.8 stops of DR on C70 vs 12.1 for the S5. So it's pretty close. Latitude is where the C70 seems to really shine with low noise floor. also keep in mind when shooting 4K120p the DGO sensor disengages and the DR drops and the image gets noisier.

By the way out of curiosity what frame rate was the video shot/exported, it looks 30p in some shots? 

[herein2020]

5 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

In other news - I just purchased a C70, which I will be collecting on Monday 😍.

Congrats, I am sure you will love it. Mine is great so far.

4 hours ago, Django said:

Cined measures 12.8 stops of DR on C70 vs 12.1 for the S5. So it's pretty close. Latitude is where the C70 seems to really shine with low noise floor. also keep in mind when shooting 4K120p the DGO sensor disengages and the DR drops and the image gets noisier.

By the way out of curiosity what frame rate was the video shot/exported, it looks 30p in some shots? 

That sounds about right....not enough difference to notice in real world shooting.

I was aware of the 4K120p limitation, funny how I always thought 120FPS would be nice to have but now that I have it I doubt that I will use it much if at all.

I still think the S5 might be better in low light due to the FF sensor and dual native ISO, that 4000ISO was incredibly useful; I haven't had a low light shoot yet so that's the last thing I need to test.

I do think that the C70 and CLOG2 is easier to grade right out of camera and easier to expose than VLOG. I just set the exposure for the WFM so that the highlights touch 80 for outdoors shoots. If the sun is in the frame I let that peak hit 100. 

The video was shot at 60fps and output at 30fps. I don't like the motion blur from 24fps so I never use that frame rate.

[Django]

1 hour ago, herein2020 said:

I still think the S5 might be better in low light due to the FF sensor and dual native ISO, that 4000ISO was incredibly useful; I haven't had a low light shoot yet so that's the last thing I need to test.

Different sensor tech DGO vs Dual ISO. S5 should do better high ISO, C70 less noise at base ISO.

Speedbooster on C70 should help mitigate the need to crank ISO if you've got fast glass.

1 hour ago, herein2020 said:

The video was shot at 60fps and output at 30fps. I don't like the motion blur from 24fps so I never use that frame rate.

That's what I figured. Not a fan of 30fps, but yeah it gives more fluid motion and is popular on social.

[kye]

6 hours ago, herein2020 said:

I was aware of the 4K120p limitation, funny how I always thought 120FPS would be nice to have but now that I have it I doubt that I will use it much if at all.

I find the aesthetic of 120p to be very artificial - it's absolutely a special effect that calls attention to itself.

The aesthetic of 60p conformed to 24/25/30p is still connected to reality but is more surreal, like we experience in moments of intoxication or high-emotional states.  I notice it used in narrative work regularly.

I think there's a reason that the cinema cameras have offered 24/25/30/48/50/60p for decades and 120p is a relatively recent arrival.  The triplet of ALEV sensor, DGO sensor and the new GH6 sensor all offer the dual-gain up to 60p and I think this correlates with this application.  I don't think I'll miss it above 60p really.

[Django]

FYI, over cranking above 100fps has been around since pre-digital age..

 

[Mmmbeats]

16 hours ago, herein2020 said:

 think that the C70 and CLOG2 is easier to grade right out of camera and easier to expose than VLOG. I just set the exposure for the WFM so that the highlights touch 80 for outdoors shoots. If the sun is in the frame I let that peak hit 100. 

V log and C log 2 are very similar. I mainly use target skintone IRE's to fix exposure and the figures (which I can't recall from the top of my head) are very similar for each. 

I've found V Log (and V Log L) very easy to work with both in exposure and grade to be honest. 

[herein2020]

7 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

V log and C log 2 are very similar. I mainly use target skintone IRE's to fix exposure and the figures (which I can't recall from the top of my head) are very similar for each. 

I've found V Log (and V Log L) very easy to work with both in exposure and grade to be honest. 

With the S5 I typically exposed a bit to the right and to me anytime to have to do that it is a bit of a guessing game, with the C70 you just property expose so to me that is easier especially when you have time to check the false color.

[Mmmbeats]

16 hours ago, herein2020 said:

With the S5 I typically exposed a bit to the right and to me anytime to have to do that it is a bit of a guessing game, with the C70 you just property expose so to me that is easier especially when you have time to check the false color.

Exposure is very much a personal thing, but I do now find that the built in exposure meter is probably the worst way to do it. 

V Log and C Log 2 are so similar I'm hoping I'll be able to use very similar, or even identical skintone targets with both (I'll be using C70 and likely a GH6 as B-cam). 

On my GH5S the inbuilt meter does a surprisingly good job at making exposure for linear profiles but it's all over the place when it comes to V Log. 

The exposure targets I use are:

Darkest skintone highlights : 42 IRE

Lightest skintone highlights : 55 IRE

Of course you still have to make adjustment decisions once these targets have been considered, but it's a system that has worked very well for me up to now. 

No grey card, no meter, no trouble with noise. Just zebras or false colour required. 

I'm expecting the targets for C Log 2 to be very similar. I'm going to do some tests this week. 

[M_Williams]

On 3/4/2022 at 8:56 AM, Mmmbeats said:

You are both correct, as this is just a different way of describing the apparent DoF.

@herein2020 is technically correct (yes, yes everybody - 'the best kind of correct' 😉), and @M_Williams is correct for practical purposes.

DoF is in fact the same whether using the speedbooster or not.  However, in order to achieve the same framing on the 50mm lens example you would have to alter the distance between the camera and the subject, thus altering the DoF.

I much prefer herein2020's way of stating it, but I have come to acknowledge that endlessly explaining this introduces just as much confusion as it clears up. 

He's actually not correct at all. The speedbooster doesn't make it a 50 f/1 lens as he states it. It makes it (roughly) a 35mm f/1 lens. Which on APS-C gives you... a 50mm FOV with the DOF of a 50/1.4. As I said, you cannot get the extra stop of light without shallower DOF, or vice versa. A speedbooster can't make the DOF shallower than the lens would be on FF, which seems to be his issue with it. And the lens is still transmitting the same TOTAL light as a 50/1.4, and the sensor captures the same TOTAL light as a full-frame sensor, hence the DOF is the same.

If it made the lens a 50 f/1.0 then it would have the same FOV with and without the speedbooster.. obviously we know speedboosters widen the FOV. From the same distance, a 35mm f/1.0 will have about the same DOF and FOV as a 50/1.4 on FF.

[Mmmbeats]

7 hours ago, M_Williams said:

He's actually not correct at all. The speedbooster doesn't make it a 50 f/1 lens as he states it. It makes it (roughly) a 35mm f/1 lens. Which on APS-C gives you... a 50mm FOV with the DOF of a 50/1.4. As I said, you cannot get the extra stop of light without shallower DOF, or vice versa. A speedbooster can't make the DOF shallower than the lens would be on FF, which seems to be his issue with it. And the lens is still transmitting the same TOTAL light as a 50/1.4, and the sensor captures the same TOTAL light as a full-frame sensor, hence the DOF is the same.

If it made the lens a 50 f/1.0 then it would have the same FOV with and without the speedbooster.. obviously we know speedboosters widen the FOV. From the same distance, a 35mm f/1.0 will have about the same DOF and FOV as a 50/1.4 on FF.

I'm coming round more to your (field) of view now.  I haven't gone back over all your statements, but I do realise I was fundamentally misstating the role of focal reducers in the imaging chain, so I'll take another look at this.

That's twice this week I've been wrong about something.  Disconcerting, as I am usually only wrong about something around once a decade.  I had an exhilarating run from my 13th birthday till turning 30 when I was right about *absolutely everything* 😅. 

[Django]

actually @herein2020 is correct: 

Quote

the speedbooster gives you a stop of light with EF glass, but the DOF remains the original DOF.

a speed booster as its name indicates .. boosts the aperture speed. you gain a stop of light. but DoF remains the same. that's where sometimes the confusion comes in.

8 hours ago, M_Williams said:

And the lens is still transmitting the same TOTAL light as a 50/1.4, 

it is until it hits the speed booster. a speed booster adds an extra glass element changing the optical design of the original lens. It demagnifies and hence concentrates light adding a stop when it hits the sensor. this article explains it better using the same 50mm example too:

I've already explained above that the entrance pupil does not change. However, given that we've now reduced the focal length (from 50 to 35), the formula for calculating f-number has changed. The entrance pupil is still 25mm in diameter, so it now gives us 35/25=1.4. So a 50mm f/2 lens, speedboosted, becomes (not effectively, but actually) a 35mm f/1.4. That's how Speedboosters 'magically' create an extra stop of light. To clarify, our 35mm f/1.4 will give you an exposure one stop brighter than the original 50mm f/2, whether that 50mm is used on full frame or S35.

https://www.alex-stone.com/2020/10/29/busting-speedbooster-myths/

 

[Mmmbeats]

18 minutes ago, Django said:

actually @herein2020 is correct: 

a speed booster as its name indicates .. boosts the aperture speed. you gain a stop of light. but DoF remains the same. that's where sometimes the confusion comes in.

it is until it hits the speed booster. a speed booster adds an extra glass element changing the optical design of the original lens. It demagnifies and hence concentrates light adding a stop when it hits the sensor. this article explains it better using the same 50mm example too:

I've already explained above that the entrance pupil does not change. However, given that we've now reduced the focal length (from 50 to 35), the formula for calculating f-number has changed. The entrance pupil is still 25mm in diameter, so it now gives us 35/25=1.4. So a 50mm f/2 lens, speedboosted, becomes (not effectively, but actually) a 35mm f/1.4. That's how Speedboosters 'magically' create an extra stop of light. To clarify, our 35mm f/1.4 will give you an exposure one stop brighter than the original 50mm f/2, whether that 50mm is used on full frame or S35.

https://www.alex-stone.com/2020/10/29/busting-speedbooster-myths/

 

I was just looking at the same resource to check my thinking on this. 

I'll give it another look tonight. 

(unless I'm too busy playing with my new C70, which I'm literally on the way to collect!). 

[Mmmbeats]

On 2/22/2022 at 1:25 AM, herein2020 said:

 

Paris France? Paris is legendary in the fashion world, along with Milan, NY, and Miami. I am in Tampa FL, so the shows here are nowhere near the Paris league. Even Miami is a massive difference, I shot the Miami Swim week show last year and the lighting was picture perfect. Here in Tampa FL, I've literally had to light the models with not much more than an on camera light.

Since COVID hit, it has been even worse because most of them are held outdoors now and outdoors at night there's no guarantee of a power source to power my bigger lights.

That video looked great, I have the 50mm F1.4 so with the speedbooster and a little fill light I should be able to make it work. I will definitely do everything I can to stick to 800ISO, but when you are shooting wide open sometimes your only choice is to start cranking the ISO if it is still too dark. I've even had to drop my shutter speed to 1:1 in the past just to get more light. The increased motion blur was worth the alternative.

 

I remember that discussion, personally I'd just be happy with 32bit float audio, but it wouldn't really help me in many situations. When using wireless lavs/mics the audio can clip at the transmitter or receiver before it even reaches the camera so even with 32bit float audio, it wouldn't help my typical audio scenario.

My main problem is there's not that many stabilized EF lenses, so I will be stuck with no stabilization or digital stabilization for lenses like the 50mm F1.4.  I don't know how good Sony's stabilization is, but I know my GoPro's stabilization is incredible as well. The latest GoPro also performs horizon leveling which mine does not have. The C70's stabilization on the other hand is nowhere near as good.

I noticed that as well, I never shot ALL-I with the GH5 but when I tried it, the cards failed almost immediately. I do think the C70 will be fine at 4K30FPS which is only 160Mb/s, 4K60FPS is 260Mb/s and it is the main framerate I use when handholding or using a gimbal, so I will need to do a lot of testing with that one. Longform talking heads stuff is all 30FPS anyway, so I already ordered the 1TB cards.

 

Everything I've read says don't ETTR with the C70. Just shoot down the middle and it will be fine. For lowlight use CLOG3, for everything else use CLOG2.

The DGO sensor really takes care of noise spectacularly well.  From what I have seen, read and experienced so far there's really no need to use C Log 3 at all with this camera. 

[Mmmbeats]

Yeah, I'm now very much in the @herein2020 was right camp.

I think that description of the effect of the speedbooster was spot on. 

From a practical point of view, I'm not sure that the speedbooster actually needs to be held in place by the screws. I suspect it may be optional. 

I run a dual system strategy on my GH5S (native lenses and adapted lenses jumping on and off during the day) and it works absolutely fine. The whole thing is second nature to me now. 

[herein2020]

8 hours ago, M_Williams said:

He's actually not correct at all. The speedbooster doesn't make it a 50 f/1 lens as he states it. It makes it (roughly) a 35mm f/1 lens. Which on APS-C gives you... a 50mm FOV with the DOF of a 50/1.4. As I said, you cannot get the extra stop of light without shallower DOF, or vice versa. A speedbooster can't make the DOF shallower than the lens would be on FF, which seems to be his issue with it. And the lens is still transmitting the same TOTAL light as a 50/1.4, and the sensor captures the same TOTAL light as a full-frame sensor, hence the DOF is the same.

If it made the lens a 50 f/1.0 then it would have the same FOV with and without the speedbooster.. obviously we know speedboosters widen the FOV. From the same distance, a 35mm f/1.0 will have about the same DOF and FOV as a 50/1.4 on FF.

 

You are saying the same thing I said...all I said was the lenses gain a stop of light but without gaining the typical shallower DOF, regardless of how the math works out at the end of the day the 50mm gains a stop of light and is still a 50mm FOV without a shallower DOF at F1.0.  And yes, the 50mm is 1 stop brighter (F1.0) than if it were mounted to a camera without the speedbooster.

I refer back to the same video that I already posted that shows the exact same thing I said:

 

 

22 minutes ago, Mmmbeats said:

The DGO sensor really takes care of noise spectacularly well.  From what I have seen, read and experienced so far there's really no need to use C Log 3 at all with this camera. 

 

I have read that in a true lowlight situation that CLOG3 would be the better color profile, but I haven't shot at night yet with it so I have no idea. 

[herein2020]

11 minutes ago, Mmmbeats said:

Yeah, I'm now very much in the @herein2020 was right camp.

I think that description of the effect of the speedbooster was spot on. 

From a practical point of view, I'm not sure that the speedbooster actually needs to be held in place by the screws. I suspect it may be optional. 

I run a dual system strategy on my GH5S (native lenses and adapted lenses jumping on and off during the day) and it works absolutely fine. The whole thing is second nature to me now. 

 

It definitely does not need to be bolted on, but I have no RF glass and I do not own the straight through adapter plus I like the extra support that bolting it on gives me so I did bolt it on.

[Mmmbeats]

1 hour ago, herein2020 said:

 

 

 

I have read that in a true lowlight situation that CLOG3 would be the better color profile, but I haven't shot at night yet with it so I have no idea. 

I did some proper low light shooting with the camera (a completely unlit tunnel deep underground, lit only by somebody's helmet torch). The results blew me away. I truly think c log 3 is redundant on this generation of cameras. 

Regards the straight adaptor, the simplest one (no drops-ins, etc.) is only £80. Probably worth getting just for the extra flexibility it offers. 

[Mmmbeats]

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