Canon C70 User Experience

[Mmmbeats]

There is also 'shot noise', which is to do with photon interaction prior to the sensor circuitry as far as I understand it (which admittedly is not an enormous amount).  It is determined by overall light gathered and not the 'light per area' density that exposure is measured in.  This would also make any crop-in mode noisier than a full sensor mode regardless of other factors.

[TomTheDP]

22 hours ago, herein2020 said:

I guess I just don't understand why that would be. If you are using the same number of photosites on the sensor for a given resolution how could there be more noise since you are not increasing the gain when cropping in? It would make more sense to me if say the native ISO increased when switching to the S16 mode, but without an increase in gain how is there an increase in noise? Maybe the S1 line skips when in cropped mode or some maybe some kind of upscaling is occurring which decreases the image quality or maybe its circuits are just more noisy when handling the crop mode.

There is no lineskipping or bixel binning on the S1. It is a full frame 6k sensor. The S35 mode simply uses the 4k portion of the sensor which works out to S35. There isn't more noise, the noise is just bigger.

If you have an image with noise present and you crop in post, the noise will be more apparent as it will be larger. There isn't more noise, it's just larger. It's like looking at an image from far away or on a small screen it might be unnoticeable. But if you blow the image up you start to see everything better. Hopefully that makes sense.

Same with the Alexa LF vs S35. The LF appears to have less noise but in reality its just smaller, both cameras generate the same amount of noise at any given exposure. It's why Roger Deacons was comfortable shooting the LF at 1600 iso where as he wasn't on previous cameras.

[Mmmbeats]

This two part article on noise is quite interesting and, I believe, relevant to this topic:

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/8189925268/what-s-that-noise-shedding-some-light-on-the-sources-of-noise

[Mark Romero 2]

3 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

There is no lineskipping or bixel binning on the S1. It is a full frame 6k sensor. The S35 mode simply uses the 4k portion of the sensor which works out to S35. There isn't more noise, the noise is just bigger.

BTW: Saw a test from the S1H done by The DP Journey and he noted that shooting in 6K then downrezzing to a 4K timeline reduced more noise than shooting in 4K from the full-width 6K sensor.

It wasn't night and day difference, but it was noticeable.

FWIW.

[herein2020]

On 3/28/2022 at 11:24 AM, TomTheDP said:

There is no lineskipping or bixel binning on the S1. It is a full frame 6k sensor. The S35 mode simply uses the 4k portion of the sensor which works out to S35. There isn't more noise, the noise is just bigger.

If you have an image with noise present and you crop in post, the noise will be more apparent as it will be larger. There isn't more noise, it's just larger. It's like looking at an image from far away or on a small screen it might be unnoticeable. But if you blow the image up you start to see everything better. Hopefully that makes sense.

Same with the Alexa LF vs S35. The LF appears to have less noise but in reality its just smaller, both cameras generate the same amount of noise at any given exposure. It's why Roger Deacons was comfortable shooting the LF at 1600 iso where as he wasn't on previous cameras.

I think the way the S1 crops in explains why there is more noise.....the photosite to resolution ratio does change in the scenario you described. In FF mode it is using an oversampled 6K image and the full sensor to produce a 4K image so there are 6K worth of photosites being used to produce the smaller image which means the noise will be less than when you crop in where you are using less of the sensor but still creating a 4K image. In that scenario yes, I can definitely see where noise would increase. I wouldn't be surprised if the oversampling is turned off completely and only the S35 (8MP) worth of photosites is used.

On the C70 it would be a different story because the photosite to resolution ration stays the same; in S35 mode the full 8MP sensor is being used and a 4K image is produced; in S16 mode the crop exactly matches 2K so a 2K image is produced. Now if the S16 mode let you record in 4K that's where the noise would increase because now the photosite to resolution ratio changed. 

Of course I could be completely wrong and the noise could still increase noticeably in the C70 in crop mode, but on paper at least it seems like it should remain constant when looking at the fact the photosite to resolution ratio does not change.

The following video was a pretty interesting test of the S1 from a crop mode to noise relationship.

 

 

On 3/28/2022 at 11:55 AM, Mmmbeats said:

This two part article on noise is quite interesting and, I believe, relevant to this topic:

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/8189925268/what-s-that-noise-shedding-some-light-on-the-sources-of-noise

That is a pretty fascinating analysis. Of course I was already aware of how important getting the exposure as perfect as possible in camera is, but their explanation of other sources of noise and the randomness of light itself definitely sheds more light on the issue.

23 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

BTW: Saw a test from the S1H done by The DP Journey and he noted that shooting in 6K then downrezzing to a 4K timeline reduced more noise than shooting in 4K from the full-width 6K sensor.

It wasn't night and day difference, but it was noticeable.

FWIW.

 

Maybe the oversampling process itself adds noise to the image. I think it all goes full circle...the only real way to know if the C70 specifically has more noise in S16 mode is to test it. At the moment I still think it is a 50:50 chance. Another question is....is there any camera out there that doesn't have increased noise in crop mode?

[TomTheDP]

On 3/28/2022 at 2:03 PM, Mark Romero 2 said:

BTW: Saw a test from the S1H done by The DP Journey and he noted that shooting in 6K then downrezzing to a 4K timeline reduced more noise than shooting in 4K from the full-width 6K sensor.

It wasn't night and day difference, but it was noticeable.

FWIW.

The S1H and S1 seem to have more noise reduction going on in the 6K 420 H265 modes, looks less organic.

 

8 hours ago, herein2020 said:

I think the way the S1 crops in explains why there is more noise.....the photosite to resolution ratio does change in the scenario you described. In FF mode it is using an oversampled 6K image and the full sensor to produce a 4K image so there are 6K worth of photosites being used to produce the smaller image which means the noise will be less than when you crop in where you are using less of the sensor but still creating a 4K image. In that scenario yes, I can definitely see where noise would increase. I wouldn't be surprised if the oversampling is turned off completely and only the S35 (8MP) worth of photosites is used.

On the C70 it would be a different story because the photosite to resolution ration stays the same; in S35 mode the full 8MP sensor is being used and a 4K image is produced; in S16 mode the crop exactly matches 2K so a 2K image is produced. Now if the S16 mode let you record in 4K that's where the noise would increase because now the photosite to resolution ratio changed. 

Of course I could be completely wrong and the noise could still increase noticeably in the C70 in crop mode, but on paper at least it seems like it should remain constant when looking at the fact the photosite to resolution ratio does not change.

The following video was a pretty interesting test of the S1 from a crop mode to noise relationship.

 

I don't understand. On the S1 you can't oversample when shooting in S35 as there is only 4k to work with. You need additional resolution to oversample. Same situation with the C70, if its using a 2k crop in S16 mode there is nothing to oversample from. It could oversample 4k to 2k if it was 2k S35.

It should have the same issue unless there is something that is really flying over my head.

[Mark Romero 2]

11 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

The S1H and S1 seem to have more noise reduction going on in the 6K 420 H265 modes, looks less organic

Huh... hadn't noticed that, but I have only shot a couple of clips in a couple of projects in 6K internally  on the S1 (never shot an S1H... don't know if there is any difference if they are both shot in Long GOP). I will have to try it out. Probably just my fading eyesight that makes me not notice.

[herein2020]

15 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

The S1H and S1 seem to have more noise reduction going on in the 6K 420 H265 modes, looks less organic.

 

I don't understand. On the S1 you can't oversample when shooting in S35 as there is only 4k to work with. You need additional resolution to oversample. Same situation with the C70, if its using a 2k crop in S16 mode there is nothing to oversample from. It could oversample 4k to 2k if it was 2k S35.

It should have the same issue unless there is something that is really flying over my head.

 

That's my point, when shooting in FF mode with the S1 you are using the full 6K sensor's worth of photosites to create the 4K image so there would be less noise than when using the S35 mode on the S1 which drops the photosites in use to only an 8MP region of the sensor.

With the C70 it is never oversampling, so the number of photosites per MP stays the same regardless of it is in S35 mode or S16 mode. 

[webrunner5]

Pretty interesting match of different company's grip.

 

 

[herein2020]

     So, I have now used the C70 for approximately 4 months for fashion shows, car shows, weddings, modeling promo videos....a decent mixture of the type of content I typically get hired to create.  I can say that the C70 is hands down the perfect fit for my type of work and I feel like a follow up was in order after using it quite a bit.

     The funny thing is, a lot of my initial observations I feel are still valid after using it for those projects, so the things that have stayed the same for me are:

 

CONTINUED DISLIKES

• No electronic level - very annoying I find myself having to straighten the horizon in post quite a bit, with everything else going on especially outdoors it can be difficult keeping the horizon level
• Digital IS - It is still jittery at times, but surprisingly when digital IS is jittery, Davinci Resolve's stabilization can usually remove it, unlike the warping effect that happens with wide angle lenses and IBIS

SURPRISES

• Stabilization - I know I made a big deal about no IBIS, and yes, I do still think with IBIS it would be easier to work with...but...Davinci Resolve is so good at stabilizing the footage in post that I feel like the C70 was the right decision. gaining useable AF for me was worth losing IBIS. Also, the new DJI Ronin RS2 is so much better than the previous model that I find myself using it as a gimbal more than I used to.
• Audio Settings - I always struggle with audio, at events things can get loud quickly or at an impromptu interview the person may suddenly talk too low or too loud so in run and gun scenarios audio is always tough for me. One of my surprise favorite features is the ability to record 3 separate audio tracks from a single XLR input. I set track one to where I think it should be, track 2 to 6dB below that, and track 3 is set to auto. Out of the 3 tracks I usually end up with something perfect. I use the Azden SGM-250MX shotgun mic with the built in Mini-XLR cable to plug directly into the C70 and the setup is perfect for what I need.
• Favorite Lens - My favorite lens of all time for video work is the Sigma 50mm EF mount F1.4 Art lens but it does not have lens IS and I shoot mostly handheld so another surprise for me was that the Canon EF 24-105mm F4 L lens has become my favorite video lens with the C70. Thanks to the speedbooster it drops down to F2.8 which is still no lowlight monster, but with a Falcon Eyes F7 mounted to the top handle it gets the job done as long as the subject is close enough.

DISAPPOINTMENTS

• Sensor - Yes, believe it or not, I think the DGO sensor is a little overhyped. IMO the S5's sensor was on par or slightly better than the C70's DGO sensor. The S5 with its clean ISO4000 was more useful in more situations than the C70's DGO sensor. I would actually take the S5's FF sensor in the C70 body and with the C70's AF over the C70's sensor.
• Autofocus - This was another surprise to me. Canon's DPAF is pretty legendary, and I know the C70 got the cinema version of that which is not as good as say the R5's AF, but the C70's AF is downright unusable in strongly backlit scenarios and low light scenarios. By lowlight I mean late dusk, not completely dark at all. I had to switch to MF a few times during low light scenarios just to record something useable.

NEW DISLIKES

• AF Racking Speed - I don't know why, but with all of the EF lenses I have tested so far, it is not possible to change the AF speed when racking from far to near or vice versa. The speed setting is there but it is greyed out. Not sure if it is the lenses, or maybe it doesn't work through the speedbooster, or maybe it needs RF lenses to work, but it is annoying sometimes to not be able to control that.

NEW LIKES

• Storage - I can say with confidence that SanDisk 1TB Extreme PRO SD cards combined with the C70 is an awesome combination. I never even think about running out of space no matter how much I shoot in a day. I mainly shoot XF-AVC 4K 60FPS and for this, these cards can shoot all day without any buffer problems.  I can even shoot Cinema Raw LT at 4K 30FPS with no problems. 120FPS, ALL-I, and Raw 60FPS are all not possible with these cards, but I don't shoot those formats anyway.

OVERALL

  At the end of the day I am happy with the C70, it checks enough boxes for me and improves my workflow and shooting style enough that it was definitely worth it. Gaining a 95% solution for AF, integrated ND filters, and integrated XLR inputs while still being able to use all of my EF glass is exactly what I wanted. I hope to get at least 5yrs out of it.

  Here is a video I shot 100% handheld for a series on an upcoming runway show. All ground video work was done with the C70, handheld, and with a single lens; the Canon 24-105mm F4. I didn't have time to change lenses, and I didn't trust no lens IS with the 50mm so I stuck with the Canon 24-105mm EF mount F4 lens. I need to do more testing handheld with the 50mm before I will trust no lens IS for a project.

 

 

[QuickHitRecord]

4 hours ago, herein2020 said:

I don't know why, but with all of the EF lenses I have tested so far, it is not possible to change the AF speed when racking from far to near or vice versa. The speed setting is there but it is greyed out.

I have control over AF speed with my Canon 24-105mm f4 ii on the C70. Don't know about the first version of the lens though.

[mercer]

How many C70 users shoot in Raw Lite? I found some pretty nice looking samples on YT? I wish I had an extra 5 grand lying around.

[gt3rs]

7 hours ago, QuickHitRecord said:

I have control over AF speed with my Canon 24-105mm f4 ii on the C70. Don't know about the first version of the lens though.

It is lens dependent all the RF you can do but EF only a subset, R5 you can change for all lenses go figure.... R5c is the same as the C70

[herein2020]

13 hours ago, QuickHitRecord said:

I have control over AF speed with my Canon 24-105mm f4 ii on the C70. Don't know about the first version of the lens though.

I had to check, mine is not a Mark II. I actually purchased it in Jan of 2016 and the II came out in August of 2016 so that explains why I do not have focus speed control.

12 hours ago, mercer said:

How many C70 users shoot in Raw Lite? I found some pretty nice looking samples on YT? I wish I had an extra 5 grand lying around.

For me and the type of things I shoot, the XF-AVC CODEC is all I need. My typical content ends up on websites and social media where the typical user is viewing it on their cell phone at 480P, so for me the extra storage, data rates, editing workflow, and the fact I would need faster cards to shoot at 4K60FPS isn't worth the small benefit of being able to change the WB. It is really nice though knowing I could shoot in RAW if I had a high enough paying commercial gig.

 

6 hours ago, gt3rs said:

It is lens dependent all the RF you can do but EF only a subset, R5 you can change for all lenses go figure.... R5c is the same as the C70

 

That is probably because they added fewer photography grade lenses into their CinemaOS database vs their photography OS. Its a minor annoyance and I am almost always shooting in 4K60FPS anyway so I can slow down the focus speed by up to 50% if I choose to in post.

[mercer]

49 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

For me and the type of things I shoot, the XF-AVC CODEC is all I need. My typical content ends up on websites and social media where the typical user is viewing it on their cell phone at 480P, so for me the extra storage, data rates, editing workflow, and the fact I would need faster cards to shoot at 4K60FPS isn't worth the small benefit of being able to change the WB. It is really nice though knowing I could shoot in RAW if I had a high enough paying commercial gig.

That makes sense. If I shot professionally at all, I'd probably shoot 1080p on a camcorder or C100 Mark II for social media content.

I am kinda curious about the camera though. Do you know how fast of cards are needed for up to 4K 60p Raw Lite? I'd mostly shoot in 24p. I'm thinking of renting one this summer for a short film and to just try out the camera. As much as I love my 5D3, I still get curious about these new cameras.

[herein2020]

20 minutes ago, mercer said:

That makes sense. If I shot professionally at all, I'd probably shoot 1080p on a camcorder or C100 Mark II for social media content.

I am kinda curious about the camera though. Do you know how fast of cards are needed for up to 4K 60p Raw Lite? I'd mostly shoot in 24p. I'm thinking of renting one this summer for a short film and to just try out the camera. As much as I love my 5D3, I still get curious about these new cameras.

I have a pair of these for when I want to shoot at the higher bitrates.

[mercer]

1 minute ago, herein2020 said:

I have a pair of these in case I want to shoot at the higher bitrates.

V60s are fast enough for the Raw Lite? That's not bad. The C70 doesn't have a CF Express slot, right? 

[herein2020]

Just now, mercer said:

V60s are fast enough for the Raw Lite? That's not bad. The C70 doesn't have a CF Express slot, right? 

I updated my link, I put V90 Prograde into Amazon but didn't notice it came back with V60 cards. Here is the right link as well.

It does not have a CFExpress slot.

[Django]

From what I've gathered from C70's CRL upgrade videos on YT, there seems to be minimal IQ increase when shooting RAW on this camera. I was expecting more sharpness/detail so I guess you could add that do the "disappointment" list although it is perhaps on the flip side proof of the XF-AVC codec robustness (pretty much ProRes equivalent).

The C70 has a pretty soft (non oversampled) 4K image generally speaking, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, although I mut say I've gotten used to the 5K oversampled 4K image from my R6. Just strikes that perfect balance of slightly oversampled but not insanely sharp 6K/8K. A bit like the C100 struck that right balance for FHD.

Anyways, thanks for the update, some interesting user feedback & video content (pretty exotic scene from a central European perspective!). Lens wise if the 50mm 1.4 is your favourite, may I suggest you check out the RF 35mm 1.8 IS Macro lens. Its affordable, converts to 50mm on the C70, is very compact, has great IS, fast aperture and bonus macro. It's my run & gun choice on the R6 (doubles as a fast 35mm/50mm depending on FF/crop mode). I've noticed a lot of C70 users depend on it as well.. 

[TomTheDP]

9 minutes ago, Django said:

From what I've gathered from C70's CRL upgrade videos on YT, there seems to be minimal IQ increase when shooting RAW on this camera. I was expecting more sharpness/detail so I guess you could add that do the "disappointment" list although it is perhaps on the flip side proof of the XF-AVC codec robustness (pretty much ProRes equivalent).

The C70 has a pretty soft (non oversampled) 4K image generally speaking, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, although I mut say I've gotten used to the 5K oversampled 4K image from my R6. Just strikes that perfect balance of slightly oversampled but not insanely sharp 6K/8K. A bit like the C100 struck that right balance for FHD.

Anyways, thanks for the update, some interesting user feedback & video content (pretty exotic scene from a central European perspective!). Lens wise if the 50mm 1.4 is your favourite, may I suggest you check out the RF 35mm 1.8 IS Macro lens. Its affordable, converts to 50mm on the C70, is very compact, has great IS, fast aperture and bonus macro. It's my run & gun choice on the R6 (doubles as a fast 35mm/50mm depending on FF/crop mode). I've noticed a lot of C70 users depend on it as well.. 

I think the benefit of 12bit raw these days is really when you need to correct for WB and skintones are in the shot. The 4k-6k coming out of most cameras is pretty stellar in terms of detail.