Canon C70 User Experience

[herein2020]

On 6/8/2022 at 6:28 PM, Django said:

From what I've gathered from C70's CRL upgrade videos on YT, there seems to be minimal IQ increase when shooting RAW on this camera. I was expecting more sharpness/detail so I guess you could add that do the "disappointment" list although it is perhaps on the flip side proof of the XF-AVC codec robustness (pretty much ProRes equivalent).

The C70 has a pretty soft (non oversampled) 4K image generally speaking, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, although I mut say I've gotten used to the 5K oversampled 4K image from my R6. Just strikes that perfect balance of slightly oversampled but not insanely sharp 6K/8K. A bit like the C100 struck that right balance for FHD.

 

The sharpness bothered me at first, until I realized it only bothered me because YT reviewers were telling me I should be bothered. I typically shoot in the fashion industry and sharpness is not necessarily a good thing for fashion shoots and event type work; models and fashion designers don't really want you to see every detail which would include the blemishes. I did notice that in Davinci Resolve it only takes seconds to add sharpness, but I stopped doing that early on. Not to mention the Canon 24-105mm lens is far from being a sharp lens at any focal length. My 50mm and any prime for that matter is way sharper.

If I shot something like product videos or macro type shoots then I would definitely use a sharper lens and probably add sharpening in post. But with the content I shoot, I really like the footage with its current level of sharpness. I do wonder if adding sharpness in post compared to shooting with a sharper image like the one that comes out of the R6 could look identical.

So for me personally, the softness of the image out of the C70 is not a disappointment. The C70 just has its own "look" in my book and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

My R5 arrived today and I did some quick tests with the video out of it. I actually like the C70's "look" better, the R5's video looked a little too clinical for me not to mention Davinci Resolve immediately locked up trying to play the footage and I had to create proxies......the R5 and R6 really need the XF-AVC codec. Fortunately I only got the R5 for photography; the R7 looks like it would be a much better b-cam for the type of work I do.

On 6/8/2022 at 6:28 PM, Django said:

Lens wise if the 50mm 1.4 is your favourite, may I suggest you check out the RF 35mm 1.8 IS Macro lens. Its affordable, converts to 50mm on the C70, is very compact, has great IS, fast aperture and bonus macro. It's my run & gun choice on the R6 (doubles as a fast 35mm/50mm depending on FF/crop mode). I've noticed a lot of C70 users depend on it as well.. 

The speedbooster is bolted to the C70 and hasn't come off since the day the C70 arrived. With my investment in EF lenses I don't plan on getting any RF lenses anytime soon if ever not to mention I really like my extra stop of light since the C70 does not have dual native ISO. My current lens lineup works pretty well for me, I just need to do more testing with the 50mm handheld to see how bad it is without lens IS.

The 50mm is fantastic when I can mount the C70 to a tripod or for short handheld interviews where I have time to put it on. I would like to start using it more for handheld detail shots at events, if I am stable enough to do that then that would be perfect.

 

On 6/8/2022 at 6:39 PM, TomTheDP said:

I think the benefit of 12bit raw these days is really when you need to correct for WB and skintones are in the shot. The 4k-6k coming out of most cameras is pretty stellar in terms of detail.

I agree. For me, the ability to correct the WB just isn't worth the extra hassle of dealing with RAW. As far as skin tones go, with 10bit footage as long as the WB is correct and the lighting isn't too horribly mixed I think even that can be easily fixed in post. Maybe not to the Hollywood level, but good enough for my typical client.

I shoot a lot of runway fashion shows where the lighting is absolutely terrible and I have always managed to get something useable without needing raw.

[Django]

2 hours ago, herein2020 said:

The sharpness bothered me at first, until I realized it only bothered me because YT reviewers were telling me I should be bothered. I typically shoot in the fashion industry and sharpness is not necessarily a good thing for fashion shoots and event type work; models and fashion designers don't really want you to see every detail which would include the blemishes. I did notice that in Davinci Resolve it only takes seconds to add sharpness, but I stopped doing that early on. Not to mention the Canon 24-105mm lens is far from being a sharp lens at any focal length. My 50mm and any prime for that matter is way sharper.

If I shot something like product videos or macro type shoots then I would definitely use a sharper lens and probably add sharpening in post. But with the content I shoot, I really like the footage with its current level of sharpness. I do wonder if adding sharpness in post compared to shooting with a sharper image like the one that comes out of the R6 could look identical.

 

I'm not a fan of digital sharpening. Makes the image look cheap video. If a lens/sensor is soft just let it be.

All I'm saying is the slight oversample of the R6 just outputs that extra resolve detail from my L glass which is really nice. Its not like its a radically sharp 6K/8K image either.

You can also counteract softness of the C70's 4K with indeed sharper lenses than the EF 24-105 which brings me to the next point..

2 hours ago, herein2020 said:

The speedbooster is bolted to the C70 and hasn't come off since the day the C70 arrived. With my investment in EF lenses I don't plan on getting any RF lenses anytime soon if ever not to mention I really like my extra stop of light since the C70 does not have dual native ISO. My current lens lineup works pretty well for me, I just need to do more testing with the 50mm handheld to see how bad it is without lens IS.

The 50mm is fantastic when I can mount the C70 to a tripod or for short handheld interviews where I have time to put it on. I would like to start using it more for handheld detail shots at events, if I am stable enough to do that then that would be perfect.

Using the SB with EF glass is great, especially for that FF look and extra stop.. but the SB adds weight imbalance but also adds glass which softens the image and can result in ugly flares in direct or backlit scenarios.

This is where an RF lens like the 35mm F1.8 comes clutch. Its super compact, has superior IS than EF as it uses extra gyro info so excellent for handheld, is optically superior to EF adding that missing sharpness & is pretty fast at F1.8 so good for lowlight. Also being a native lens, the AF is gonna be bit more responsive. Give it a try sometime. Again its super popular with C70 users for a reason.. oh and best part is its like under $500.

 

..that said it is not a mojo lens.. great for run & gun but for a more high-end commercial or cine look I'd probably go anamorphic with the new sirui RF lenses if/when I get a C70.

or go vintage for straight up anamorphic dream mode..

 

[herein2020]

21 hours ago, Django said:

I'm not a fan of digital sharpening. Makes the image look cheap video. If a lens/sensor is soft just let it be.

All I'm saying is the slight oversample of the R6 just outputs that extra resolve detail from my L glass which is really nice. Its not like its a radically sharp 6K/8K image either.

You can also counteract softness of the C70's 4K with indeed sharper lenses than the EF 24-105 which brings me to the next point..

Using the SB with EF glass is great, especially for that FF look and extra stop.. but the SB adds weight imbalance but also adds glass which softens the image and can result in ugly flares in direct or backlit scenarios.

This is where an RF lens like the 35mm F1.8 comes clutch. Its super compact, has superior IS than EF as it uses extra gyro info so excellent for handheld, is optically superior to EF adding that missing sharpness & is pretty fast at F1.8 so good for lowlight. Also being a native lens, the AF is gonna be bit more responsive. Give it a try sometime. Again its super popular with C70 users for a reason.. oh and best part is its like under $500.

 

..that said it is not a mojo lens.. great for run & gun but for a more high-end commercial or cine look I'd probably go anamorphic with the new sirui RF lenses if/when I get a C70.

or go vintage for straight up anamorphic dream mode..

 

 

That lens does look really good, if I ever do decide to switch to RF that lens would be one of the first one's I would get. For now my current setup works for me.  I believe in simplicity and a single lens mount for all of my cameras works best for me, that stabilization handheld though really looked good.

The Sirui lens definitely transforms the look, although I can't tell how much is the color grade and how much is the lens. For a more locked down controlled environment where you could properly pull focus, that would definitely be a good lens to have.

[TomTheDP]

The affordable RF, L and E mount anamorphics coming out are really making mirrorless cameras a great option. Although it really makes little sense to shoot anamorphic for content that will end up online. It is an artistic choice at that point.

[herein2020]

14 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

The affordable RF, L and E mount anamorphics coming out are really making mirrorless cameras a great option. Although it really makes little sense to shoot anamorphic for content that will end up online. It is an artistic choice at that point.

Very true, or you could just shoot with a regular lens then add the bars on the top and bottom and call it anamorphic, your average YT viewer won't know the difference especially not on a cell phone.

[webrunner5]

Ahh my mother told me about people like you. 😬

[TomTheDP]

27 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

Very true, or you could just shoot with a regular lens then add the bars on the top and bottom and call it anamorphic, your average YT viewer won't know the difference especially not on a cell phone.

True but what about the more cool bokeh and unique perspective. Everything is overkill these days though. My friend AC'ed a 10 second social media ad with the fx9 and after seeing it on instagram I concluded it could have been shot on a phone.

[herein2020]

16 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

True but what about the more cool bokeh and unique perspective. Everything is overkill these days though. My friend AC'ed a 10 second social media ad with the fx9 and after seeing it on instagram I concluded it could have been shot on a phone.

So true, I have added many details and focused on subtle nuances when shooting and editing and none of them were visible on a cell phone nor could you really communicate the original intent within the few seconds you could keep people's attention span so why bother.

That's why I am perfectly fine with my middle of the road Canon 24-105mm and EF mount lenses.....I am shooting for my clients, not for myself and if the final product is good enough for them then it is good enough for me.

When I am shooting a creative passion project for myself that's when I tend to try to refine the details.

[Django]

14 hours ago, herein2020 said:

So true, I have added many details and focused on subtle nuances when shooting and editing and none of them were visible on a cell phone nor could you really communicate the original intent within the few seconds you could keep people's attention span so why bother.

That's why I am perfectly fine with my middle of the road Canon 24-105mm and EF mount lenses.....I am shooting for my clients, not for myself and if the final product is good enough for them then it is good enough for me.

When I am shooting a creative passion project for myself that's when I tend to try to refine the details.

We've all been there, that said I try and strive to do more than "good enough" these days. Maybe its because my scene is very competitive since post-COVID (videographers are hungry), so that keeps me on my toes. Also my clients are more and more savvy when it comes to video, phones can do a lot these days and they pay for results that show. The infamous "cinematic" term gets thrown often.

That doesn't mean shooting RAW anamorphic (although I'd like to give it a shot in near future) but I mainly shoot with primes (Canon L, Zeiss & vintage Leica) and spend time grading (to the point where I now charge extra budget for that).

As for details vanishing on social media/smartphones, that's true but shooting vertical may be an interesting option to make most of the limited display real-estate. The C70 is one of the only cameras out there that has a vertical mode. Open Gate is also good for this but not an option here.

 

[herein2020]

2 hours ago, Django said:

We've all been there, that said I try and strive to do more than "good enough" these days. Maybe its because my scene is very competitive since post-COVID (videographers are hungry), so that keeps me on my toes. Also my clients are more and more savvy when it comes to video, phones can do a lot these days and they pay for results that show. The infamous "cinematic" term gets thrown often.

That doesn't mean shooting RAW anamorphic (although I'd like to give it a shot in near future) but I mainly shoot with primes (Canon L, Zeiss & vintage Leica) and spend time grading (to the point where I now charge extra budget for that).

As for details vanishing on social media/smartphones, that's true but shooting vertical may be an interesting option to make most of the limited display real-estate. The C70 is one of the only cameras out there that has a vertical mode. Open Gate is also good for this but not an option here.

 

 

You actually do not have to shoot vertical to get vertical video, most of my content I post on YT and IG and the content fits perfectly on both platforms. I would much rather shoot landscape and have the option of posting a vertical version vs shooting vertical with no ability to post a landscape version. The trick is to set up the aspect ratios in Davinci Resolve, and when you are shooting, frame the content in a way where it will work in both orientations. 

One of my favorite features of the S5 was the ability to set up aspect ratio guides which I used to frame the social media content within the landscape orientation. This is also why I discovered the bug in the C70 which does not let you set a custom aspect ratio; so far Canon hasn't bothered to do anything about it. I've been shooting this way so long though that I mentally adjust the framing to accommodate both in post.

Here is a sample video where it is in landscape:

 

 

And here is the same video on Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cdq3QJtlyQs/

 

 

 

[Django]

New firmware update bringing more ALL-I options, Eye-AF & new Canon 709 profile:

@herein2020 Sadly still no (vertical) aspect ratio markers, I'm sure that would have been easy and very handy to have 

[herein2020]

4 hours ago, Django said:

New firmware update bringing more ALL-I options, Eye-AF & new Canon 709 profile:

@herein2020 Sadly still no (vertical) aspect ratio markers, I'm sure that would have been easy and very handy to have 

Very nice, the AF definitely feels light years behind the R7 and R5. Of course, I use adapted EF lenses and a speedbooster so it remains to be seen how well the eye AF works in that situation. None of the other new features interests me, I always use CLOG2 or CLOG3 so I don't care about the new color profile and I have never cared about ALL-I. ALL-I has always seemed like a massive increase in storage requirements without any visible increase in quality.

The C70 has the custom aspect ratio framing guides but it has a bug in the FW that prevents you from setting custom aspect ratios that aren't built in. You can pick from the preset ones, but none of the presets include the 4:5 ratio. The R5, R7, and my drones don't have it either so I've gotten pretty used to just keeping the main subject near the center of the screen for video.

For photos though, the aspect ratio guides are far more useful because with photography if you want to shoot landscape but also ensure it will work for both social media the original composition it's guesswork when it comes to how much will be cropped for social media which is why I hope they add this feature to the R5 and R7.

[Django]

Eye-AF should work ok, it does on my R6 with adapted EF lenses. The new Canon 709 is a modified version of the popular WideDR profile with better highlight curve and added contrast. Perfect for fast turnaround projects imo. ALL-I is nice when you want ultimate compressed quality, difference is noticeable in water scenes and motion. Bigger files for sure but easier to edit. 

I think its just nice to see updates with added new features. Not something Canon is known for. I'm assuming the FX30 and its aggressive price point is probably prompting Canon to do so. Competition is good for us customers. C70 keeps getting better!

They should put out a C50 in a R6/R7 body with full C70 video features under $3K.

[herein2020]

19 hours ago, Django said:

Eye-AF should work ok, it does on my R6 with adapted EF lenses. The new Canon 709 is a modified version of the popular WideDR profile with better highlight curve and added contrast. Perfect for fast turnaround projects imo. ALL-I is nice when you want ultimate compressed quality, difference is noticeable in water scenes and motion. Bigger files for sure but easier to edit. 

I think its just nice to see updates with added new features. Not something Canon is known for. I'm assuming the FX30 and its aggressive price point is probably prompting Canon to do so. Competition is good for us customers. C70 keeps getting better!

They should put out a C50 in a R6/R7 body with full C70 video features under $3K.

I agree 100% if it weren't for Sony all we would have right now is the 1DXIII and a 5DV from Canon. 

I will be surprised if they release a C50 at least anytime soon. They already released an R5C, there are rumors the R7 might get the same treatment next year, haven't really heard anything about the R6 and haven't heard anything about a C50 in awhile. I think if they were going to release a C50 they would not have released the R5C. If anything, the R6II is already a C50 except it has IBIS, an electronic level, better AF, and can take pictures as well. The only thing it is missing is some of the video tools from the Cinema OS, XFAVC, internal Cinema Raw LT, and of course a fan.

[utisz]

Hello,

do you have any idea what is causing that teribble jitter of antialising in my footage that I recorded with my C70?
Is the digital stabilization which is messing up my clip or something else?

Thanks very much for sharing your expertise on this.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1T9DeIdrt7t61vzGiP5h1h8HA0jZ1aPuY/view?usp=share_link

[herein2020]

On 11/23/2022 at 6:46 PM, utisz said:

Hello,

do you have any idea what is causing that teribble jitter of antialising in my footage that I recorded with my C70?
Is the digital stabilization which is messing up my clip or something else?

Thanks very much for sharing your expertise on this.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1T9DeIdrt7t61vzGiP5h1h8HA0jZ1aPuY/view?usp=share_link

 

Mine does not do that with digital IS on or off in XFAVC or RAW. I would open a ticket with Canon. Are you using native lenses, lens adapters, speedbooster, lens with IS?

After seeing your video I tested my C70 on a tripod with the Canon speedbooster, Sigma EF mount 50mm F1.8 and with digital IS on and off. I also tested it in XFAVC and then switched to Cinema Raw LT......there was absolutely no movement in the image.

If you are using a lens with IS I would try turning off the lens IS, also if you are using a 3rd party lens adapter maybe try using the native mount or a Canon adapter. When you turn off digital IS does it fix the issue? Are you sure there are no micro vibrations coming from somewhere like the floor that the tripod is sitting on?

[BenEricson]

On 11/23/2022 at 3:46 PM, utisz said:

Hello,

do you have any idea what is causing that teribble jitter of antialising in my footage that I recorded with my C70?
Is the digital stabilization which is messing up my clip or something else?

Thanks very much for sharing your expertise on this.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1T9DeIdrt7t61vzGiP5h1h8HA0jZ1aPuY/view?usp=share_link

That looks like the Digital IS. Looks pretty similar to the result of applying warp stablizer to shaky footage shot with a 1/48 shutter.

[FHDcrew]

43 minutes ago, BenEricson said:

That looks like the Digital IS. Looks pretty similar to the result of applying warp stablizer to shaky footage shot with a 1/48 shutter.

Agreed.  If you want to rely on Digital IS, the best option is to shoot with a high shutterspeed to avoid motion blur.  Of course that won't work well for indoor footage, and if you want motion blur still you will need to apply it in post.  Davinci Resolve Studio and RSMB both can give you decent post-motion blur, and I've heard RSMB is essentially the best out there in this regard.