Prores is irrelevant, and also spectacular!

[webrunner5]

Yeah but all Blackmagic cameras use ProRes, CinemaDNG, and later ones Braw. You have a OG BMPCC you are using ProRes or Raw.

[Oliver Daniel]

1 hour ago, kye said:

Absolutely!  

I find that most camera discussions happen in a vacuum, where there is little consideration of anything else involved in the process, which is especially perplexing considering that the camera is one of the least important parts of making a good film.

In terms of workflow, I shoot the GH5 using its 1080p ALL-I codec, in preference to the 4K IPB one, because of workflow considerations.  I'll definitely be exploring the Prores options of the GH6, but will also be quite tempted by the Prores on the new iPhones, which are probably one of the cameras that would benefit most from having a larger bitrate and some gentle encouragement not to process the living hell out of the image before it's compressed and saved internally.

Yep, GH5 ALL-I is night and day compared to IPB for workflow. Very robust. 

Another poster mentioned ProRes being a standard. That’s it. I can’t count how many times I’ve been asked for ProRes files for both acquisition and delivery. 

Sometimes if there’s been a screw up with card space - I’ll shoot to H265 and transcode to ProRes later for workflow efficiency. I know full well the image quality trade off is incredibly incremental, so it doesn’t bother me if it means getting the footage shot. 

These ProRes critics are not to be listened to. They likely do not have the experience of working in certain environments where efficiency is paramount. It’s also another reason why most commercial video production companies don’t shoot RAW. 

[kye]

1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah but all Blackmagic cameras use ProRes, CinemaDNG, and later ones Braw. You have a OG BMPCC you are using ProRes or Raw.

True, but I'm not sure what you were referring to?

1 hour ago, Oliver Daniel said:

Yep, GH5 ALL-I is night and day compared to IPB for workflow. Very robust. 

Another poster mentioned ProRes being a standard. That’s it. I can’t count how many times I’ve been asked for ProRes files for both acquisition and delivery. 

Sometimes if there’s been a screw up with card space - I’ll shoot to H265 and transcode to ProRes later for workflow efficiency. I know full well the image quality trade off is incredibly incremental, so it doesn’t bother me if it means getting the footage shot. 

These ProRes critics are not to be listened to. They likely do not have the experience of working in certain environments where efficiency is paramount. It’s also another reason why most commercial video production companies don’t shoot RAW. 

I've heard that most professional productions shoot Prores rather than RAW, and that RAW is typically only used by the big budget productions and by amateurs.  

I'm keen to hear more about that.  it makes sense to me, but my experience of the internet camera ecosystem (YT, social media, forums like this) and also of most solo-operators is that they're completely insulated from the industry proper, who interact in parallel discussions like liftgammagain.com, the CML mailing list, etc, and who have very different working methods and mindsets to the whole topic of making films.

[webrunner5]

Well you sort of implied that if you didn't buy a GH6 you don't need ProRes. Some people Have to use it like it or not. And I think this GH6 is going to make a GH5 pretty obsolete in a damn short time. I Never liked mine but this new one seems damn tempting. They seem to have fixed everything I hated in the GH5. Poor AF never really bothered me.

If you are making a living doing video AF is about the bottom of the pile. Sure it would be nice but maybes are pretty weak way to make a living.

[mercer]

5 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

Not sure if you're being serious?

4K 60p 10-bit (the thing I most lament on an almost daily basis) 
Increased dynamic range (the GH5's biggest weakness)
High resolution mode stills (for landscapes, architectural, etc.)
4 channel audio recording....

I guess that depends...

If the GH6 didn't have ProRes, I would yawn at this release. But I acknowledge that some of the updates could be useful to some people.

But without a doubt, the ProRes propels the GH6 into next level territory... especially with the updated IBIS.

I'm hoping the future ProRes updates will offer the 48p/60p in 1080p/4K but since I don't really shoot too much slow motion, it's not that big of a deal.

The bump in dynamic range is minimal... what... about a stop and it's still under 12 stops. I'll take any extra they want to give, but that's not so great to go crazy over.

Actually, I know there are limitations to what m4/3 can do, but how did BM get 13 stops on the OG Pocket, 9 years ago, but Panasonic can't seem to break 11.5 stops, even with the Go-Go-Gadget-Boost mode and full vLog?

[webrunner5]

Well Glenn that 13 stops was only in CinemaDNG so that was a pretty big help, but yeah, we have not made too much of a gain over all those years it seems. 

Not too sure what ProRes was stops wise. Probably around 11?? But yeah Canon DSLRs were about 7 or 8 at the time.  The early Blackmagic stuff really lived up to its name. Magic no doubt. I just love my OG BMPCC.

[mercer]

27 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Well Glenn that 13 stops was only in CinemaDNG so that was a pretty big help, but yeah, we have not made too much of a gain over all those years it seems. 

Not too sure what ProRes was stops wise. Probably around 11?? But yeah Canon DSLRs were about 7 or 8 at the time.  The early Blackmagic stuff really lived up to its name. Magic no doubt. I just love my OG BMPCC.

Could be wrong, but I thought the DR was the same between Raw and ProRes... of course the 12bit raw gives the perception of more DR with the added color depth. Either way, it was impressive what they did. Even the ProResHQ looked amazing. You could set your WB to 4400 and still fix it in post without any issues.

No disrespect to anyone on the forum... but I don't understand people's disregard for ProRes as an acquisition codec.

But I think mjpeg looks better than h.264... so what do I know. 

[webrunner5]

Glenn you could be right about the DR being the same because they were claiming 13 stops even before Raw was even available.

Look what I found, I Never knew this, might explain why the battery goes so fast.

 

"An Update on Power Consumption; by John Brawley

The morning after this review first appeared, I received an email from John Brawley, an Australian based cinematographer and some-time camera beta tester for Black Magic. He pointed out that the camera uses a Peltier cooler, the type used in Astrophotography cameras, and this is why battery life is short and the camera feels so warm. This is not something that I knew, or have seen mentioned anywhere else. John’s comments are reproduced below, with permission.

“The sensor is actively cooled.  Like with some supercharged processors in computers, it uses a Peltier effect or thermoelectric cooling system to maintain consistent sensor temperature.  This is really important in maintaining and minimising fixed pattern noise (noise in the blacks) as well as dead pixels showing up and also to prevent what you would have experienced on dSLRs…overheating of the sensor causing the camera to have to stop to cool down.

The thing with thermoelectric cooling is that it uses power to cool.  The more it needs to cool, the more power it will suck.  So on a hot day when the camera is struggling to dissipate heat through the chasis it will use more power to maintain the sensor temperature. This is also the case with the larger BMCC, and why some users experience the chassis getting quite warm to touch.  It’s also why you see such wildly differing reports of battery duration.  It just depends on how hot the camera is.

So if you’ve had the camera on for a while then it’s warm.  Once it’s warm, it uses more power to stay cool.  

The advantages of thermoelectric cooling is absolutely consistent sensor performance and no requirement for a cooling fan.  The downside is that is sucks a lot of power and it’s variable.  The only other cinema camera to do this cooling approach is the 60K Arri Alexa. 😉 “

John Brawley, Cinematographer"

 

From this article. A totally legit site,

 

https://luminous-landscape.com/black-magic-pocket-camera/

 

[Mmmbeats]

16 hours ago, mercer said:

I guess that depends...

If the GH6 didn't have ProRes, I would yawn at this release. But I acknowledge that some of the updates could be useful to some people.

But without a doubt, the ProRes propels the GH6 into next level territory... especially with the updated IBIS.

I'm hoping the future ProRes updates will offer the 48p/60p in 1080p/4K but since I don't really shoot too much slow motion, it's not that big of a deal.

The bump in dynamic range is minimal... what... about a stop and it's still under 12 stops. I'll take any extra they want to give, but that's not so great to go crazy over.

Actually, I know there are limitations to what m4/3 can do, but how did BM get 13 stops on the OG Pocket, 9 years ago, but Panasonic can't seem to break 11.5 stops, even with the Go-Go-Gadget-Boost mode and full vLog?

I'm the complete opposite.  I wasn't really that excited for the release and had no real intention of updating. 

I assumed that Panny would go for some kind of headline-grabbing big feature, but instead they seem to have really gotten to the DNA of what makes the line so appealing - great useability, powerful processing, features for real-world filmmaking.  I have to say I'm impressed - and sold!

A stop of dynamic range is actually a huge deal.  If you're trying to bring a window into some kind of exposure range, that's half the amount of light you have to deal with.  That's like pulling a couple of big fixtures onto set.

There's really no point comparing the GHx to the BMPCC in my opinion because they are completely different tools.  No way you can engineer what BM made with full IBIS, mechanical shutter, weather sealing, etc.  They are just great at doing very different things.

[webrunner5]

Yeah but I think that was his point, they are just now great, why not 9 ,10 years ago. A little bitty company like BM seems odd. Panny Has Always been Videocentric. Why not push harder earlier.

The GH5 was mostly 8bit stuff, now the GH6 is mostly 10bit.

[PannySVHS]

2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah but I think that was his point, they are just now great, why not 9 ,10 years ago. A little bitty company like BM seems odd. Panny Has Always been Videocentric. Why not push harder earlier.

The GH5 was mostly 8bit stuff, now the GH6 is mostly 10bit.

Pixel perfect 10 bit 422 up to 60p in 100mbit and 200mbit ALL-I flavours is pretty much not mostly 8bit, nor up to 30p with 150mbit and 400mbit 10bit codecs. 🙂

Why not push harder- true @webrunner5,  regarding internal NDs and a S35 sensor behind the beautiful mft mount. All that for 2500 to 2700 USD and this camera would have been legendary from the start. Now it has to earn its reputation.

[mercer]

3 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

I'm the complete opposite.  I wasn't really that excited for the release and had no real intention of updating. 

I wasn't really either. I'm excited they're including ProRes, but I'm not an early adopter. Originally, I really liked the ProRes footage in that "The Storm" video but after a second watch on Vimeo, I must say I was a bit discouraged by the texture of the skin. It looks very plastic, which leads me to believe that Panasonic is doing more internal processing to the files than I would have liked. But it's way too early to tell.

To be honest, I may be a never adopter. Something like the Sigma FP suits me better, and I still dislike a Micro 4/3 camera that costs more than $2000... in fact I don't really like one that costs more than $1500. But that is what it is, I suppose. 

3 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

I assumed that Panny would go for some kind of headline-grabbing big feature, but instead they seem to have really gotten to the DNA of what makes the line so appealing - great useability, powerful processing, features for real-world filmmaking.  I have to say I'm impressed - and sold!

I think that ProRes is that headline grabbing feature. This is a professional acquisition codec used in Hollywood films/TV. This is a big deal. I understand that people on this site are often swayed by maths and that when you crunch the numbers, other codecs seem more or just as efficient, but I think there are other aspects, like motion cadence, image thickness, etc... that isn't being considered.

 

3 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

A stop of dynamic range is actually a huge deal.  If you're trying to bring a window into some kind of exposure range, that's half the amount of light you have to deal with.  That's like pulling a couple of big fixtures onto set.

Sure, a stop of dynamic range can be a big deal, once you get over 12+ stops. Without significantly lighting your interiors, or blocking scenes near the window, you won't get an "evenly" exposed interior shot with 11.5 stops. But I understand what you're saying.

3 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

There's really no point comparing the GHx to the BMPCC in my opinion because they are completely different tools.  No way you can engineer what BM made with full IBIS, mechanical shutter, weather sealing, etc.  They are just great at doing very different things.

I suppose, but I'm still a little suspect, especially since they're using full vLog now.

[webrunner5]

I found this interesting on the Blackmagic Forum.

 

   

"Re: 13 Stops of DR on an BMPCC? More like 10.

Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:06 pm

Matt Choules wrote:

Tom wrote:Pocket camera is lossless compressed Raw - so when unpacked it is uncompressed Raw.

Whereas the Red cameras compressed Lossy. So there is a difference.

What's considered visually lossless is a compression ratio of 3:1 or less.
The Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera is visually lossless, the Red Epic can also be visually lossless if you set the compression ratio low enough.

Neither of them are uncompressed.
Technically what you get from both Red and BMD is decompressed RAW.

The only camera I know of that is truly uncompressed is the ikonoskop a-cam dii. That camera took data straight off the AD converter and wrote it to the hard drive.

Anyway, I digress.


Sorry, but you are incorrect.

The red uses lossy compression, which reduces the data by cleverly disgarding data. The pocket cam uses lossless compression, where the raw and uncompressed data is all stored in a more efficient way which is later on, bit for bit uncompressed to be exactly identical to uncompressed data. The bmcc on the other hand is uncompressed also.

Neither bmd cam disgards the data, it is all retained.
The red cams do disgard the data permanantly.

How well the red compression works can alter its dynamic range."

 

The poster at the top admits a few replies down he was wrong. The guy at the bottom is right.

[kye]

On 3/2/2022 at 10:38 AM, mercer said:

I guess that depends...

If the GH6 didn't have ProRes, I would yawn at this release. But I acknowledge that some of the updates could be useful to some people.

But without a doubt, the ProRes propels the GH6 into next level territory... especially with the updated IBIS.

I'm hoping the future ProRes updates will offer the 48p/60p in 1080p/4K but since I don't really shoot too much slow motion, it's not that big of a deal.

The bump in dynamic range is minimal... what... about a stop and it's still under 12 stops. I'll take any extra they want to give, but that's not so great to go crazy over.

Actually, I know there are limitations to what m4/3 can do, but how did BM get 13 stops on the OG Pocket, 9 years ago, but Panasonic can't seem to break 11.5 stops, even with the Go-Go-Gadget-Boost mode and full vLog?

According to the CineD tests, here's the GH5 and BMPCC:

and the GH6 has 12.8 / 11.5, so it's almost 2 stops, and slightly over the BMPCC sensor, which has a size disadvantage, but it's a reasonable question - technology marches on and 2012 was a looooooong time ago in silicon technology.  

It'll be interesting to see how it feels when I get one - the differences between the DR on the two cameras is very obvious when you take them out in the real world on a sunny day, that's for sure! 

[KnightsFan]

CineD is measuring at different resolutions. Downscaling 4k to 1080p improves SNR by 0.5-1 stop. Probably the log curve on the GH5 doesn't take advantage of full sensor DR.

[Al Dolega]

IIRC the V-Log L on the GH5 doesn't use the whole curve because it's just the "full" V-Log curve with the ends cut off. Meaning it throws away some info at the top and bottom because it's not optimized for the lower DR of the m4/3 sensor.

So a bit of the higher DR of the B-GH1 and GH6 is probably simply due to them using the "full" V-Log curve.

[kye]

3 hours ago, Al Dolega said:

IIRC the V-Log L on the GH5 doesn't use the whole curve because it's just the "full" V-Log curve with the ends cut off. Meaning it throws away some info at the top and bottom because it's not optimized for the lower DR of the m4/3 sensor.

So a bit of the higher DR of the B-GH1 and GH6 is probably simply due to them using the "full" V-Log curve.

It seems rather odd that the GH6 dual-gain sensor only gets an extra two stops of DR compared to the GH5, and form what you're saying it could be even less than a two stop advantage.  The dual-gain sensor seems like it could be considerably more difficult to design / manufacture etc so only getting 1-2 additional stops seems rather odd.

Or is the GH6 sensor tech just not very high DR without the dual-gain function enabled?  It seems like they wouldn't have skimped on the DR after putting so much effort into this feature.

[webrunner5]

I may be wrong and not sure how the math works but DR depends on what the bit rate is like 10bit, 12, bit 14bit, 16bit on and on. I think an Arri is up at 16bit, 14bit at the least. So unless they come up with some way to get more bit rate on the processor it isn't going to happen.

It has something to do with siginal strength and the bigger the senor more strength.

[Django]

On 3/2/2022 at 2:43 AM, kye said:

I've heard that most professional productions shoot Prores rather than RAW, and that RAW is typically only used by the big budget productions and by amateurs.  

Depends. Very few cams actually offer both ProRes & Raw options.

Basically ARRI, RED & BMD.

RED & BMD have very efficient compressed RAW which incites to shoot with it.

ARRI has ProRes 4444 XQ which may tip the balance the other way.

RAW is always going to require a few extra steps so also depends on amount of footage and time/post constraints.

For the fastest workflow shooting Prores with a baked-in LUT is preferred.

So really, YMMV.

[kye]

6 hours ago, Django said:

Depends. Very few cams actually offer both ProRes & Raw options.

Basically ARRI, RED & BMD.

RED & BMD have very efficient compressed RAW which incites to shoot with it.

ARRI has ProRes 4444 XQ which may tip the balance the other way.

RAW is always going to require a few extra steps so also depends on amount of footage and time/post constraints.

For the fastest workflow shooting Prores with a baked-in LUT is preferred.

So really, YMMV.

Apart from RED, ARRI, and BMD, and the latest crop of RAW-internal cameras, were there any other cameras that shot RAW internally?

I didn't think there were many/any others that shot RAW internally?