Former GH5 videographers, what did you upgrade to afterwards?

[thehebrewhammer]

Also, I can't help but imagine how successful Panasonic would have been if they just made a gh5s with IBIS a few years ago.

[webrunner5]

Then they would have defeated the purpose of the GH5s.

[MrSMW]

The biggest question of all is will the OP ever log in to respond to or thank folks for their contribution...or is this another case of, "a friend of someone I don't know was told by someone on the internet who once took some pictures at someone's wedding as a guest, reckoned that the Canon R6 was the best camera for video, so I'm getting one of those. And all the lenses".

If not, at least we had a chat about the subject eh? 😜

[scotchtape]

Went to Sony land.  More or less satisfied. Any system has its pros and cons. A7SIII does many things sufficiently to make money with.  Also went with FX6 for a bigger camera but I only use it on sticks. Otherwise I use a gimbal with the A7SIII.  Depending on your style the IBIS may work - it's decent for static shots, but for walking shots it's not so great unless you're using a gimbal.  On the other hand if you can live with the current process for the gyro stabilization, you can use that as well.

I much prefer what I can get out of the Sony color wise.  I use the usual slog3 except I typically use the Phantom luts, although I must say I don't like the current version and still use the older version. I will say that the NR is very heavy handed in low light. Since COVID times I haven't done any events so I haven't explored that area myself, but I know the A7III I used was streets ahead of the GH5 so I think I'll be fine.

I really hated the color and DR from my GH5 even if the weight and IBIS were good.  Most GH5 footage seems to be from either (no offense) wannabe filmmakers where the grade always looks like something is wrong with the contrast curve, or from videographers who don't have an eye for color. There's a few people who can make it sing and I definitely couldn't, but maybe you can.

Otherwise the S5 low light looked very very good color wise, but there's the trash Panasonic AF and the lens selection... Manual focus during fast paced weddings - good luck for the average person. 

 

[kye]

6 hours ago, scotchtape said:

Most GH5 footage seems to be from either (no offense) wannabe filmmakers where the grade always looks like something is wrong with the contrast curve, or from videographers who don't have an eye for color. There's a few people who can make it sing and I definitely couldn't, but maybe you can.

I think this is the fate of many cameras.  

The camera market seems to be oriented around camera size being a prerequisite for image quality, despite the fact it doesn't have to be (as evidenced by BMMCC and OG BMPCC which were affordable a decade ago).  This means that there is little support in-post for the lighter cameras and less reputation.

This creates a feedback loop where people who want to shoot light don't make good-looking videos because the expectation isn't there, and people who have the expectation of great images shoot with larger cameras, reinforcing the concept that small and budget friendly isn't the way to go.  

In response to this completely made up size=quality concept, BM decided to make the BMPCC 4K literally 3x the total size of the OG BMPCC and abandoned the delightful S16 sensor for one that looks like any other camera, and almost all evidence that small could be great was swept under the rug.  

Those who shoot small typically shoot in uncontrolled conditions where the lighting is mixed colour temperature and lighting ratios are difficult to deal with, leaving those who shoot in the most difficult conditions and have the least ability in post production to shoot with the cameras least able to handle those conditions, and unaware that it could have been any different.

[fuzzynormal]

27 minutes ago, kye said:

Those who shoot small typically shoot in uncontrolled conditions

Yeah, Shooting with good cinematography will always be the best solution.  Wish more people took that tack.  It's a hard skill to learn.  Certainly easier to buy a new camera!

[webrunner5]

This video was interesting I watched today. Red Scarlet versus the Pocket 6K.  I didn't realize you could buy a Red that cheap. Damn good looking footage out of it. Kills the 6K.

 

[kye]

2 hours ago, fuzzynormal said:

Yeah, Shooting with good cinematography will always be the best solution.  Wish more people took that tack.  It's a hard skill to learn.  Certainly easier to buy a new camera!

You want people to shoot travel videos, adventure videos, home videos, weddings, outdoor sports, and everything else that happens outside in a studio instead?

[fuzzynormal]

1 hour ago, kye said:

You want people to shoot travel videos, adventure videos, home videos, weddings, outdoor sports, and everything else that happens outside in a studio instead?

Nah. Not at all. But that’s not always what cinematography is about, right?

It’s also about knowing how to shoot when the light is right. Or adjusting to use the available light in a smart way. —or just Being there to take advantage in creative ways with what the situation allows. Pointing the camera in the right direction. 
 

knowing what to avoid as much as knowing what to get. 
 

I just think all those things go farther than worrying about which Canon camera you’re using or which Panasonic camera you’re using; concentrating on an extra 1 stop of DR with gear without knowing how to get the most out of the 10 you already have… etc, etc.  the same old debate we’ve all had hundreds of times.

All that said, having an awesome camera that can cover your ass and recover a bad ill-advised shot is fun too…

[kye]

9 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

Nah. Not at all. But that’s not always what cinematography is about, right?

It’s also about knowing how to shoot when the light is right. Or adjusting to use the available light in a smart way. —or just Being there to take advantage in creative ways with what the situation allows. Pointing the camera in the right direction. 
 

knowing what to avoid as much as knowing what to get. 
 

I just think all those things go farther than worrying about which Canon camera you’re using or which Panasonic camera you’re using; concentrating on an extra 1 stop of DR with gear without knowing how to get the most out of the 10 you already have… etc, etc.  the same old debate we’ve all had hundreds of times.

All that said, having an awesome camera that can cover your ass and recover a bad ill-advised shot is fun too…

Me sitting in a row boat:

a shot I got from where I was sitting:

Obviously if you can light or expose better then you should, and it depends on what you're filming about how much control you have over the variables, but most of the time the most difficult shots to film are the ones where I have basically no control over what is going on.

I regularly find myself right at the limits of what the GH5 can do, and I just find it annoying that the generic response is to just "film better".  I asked the question on the colourist forums too and they basically had no advice except to say that shooting in nicer conditions and using a better camera were the only answers.

PS, if you're not aware, standing up one one side of a row boat is ill-advised unless you want to immediately transition into underwater photography.

[fuzzynormal]

3 hours ago, kye said:

find myself right at the limits of what the GH5

That's cool.  Experiment with other cameras. (or lenses)  I do.  We should play around with stuff like the OG's did with film stock.  The new tech is awesome, let's enjoy it.

The OP frets about making a mistake buying a certain cam.  If any of us feel up against it, by all means change gear.  I've just become content with what I got; doesn't mean anyone else needs to or should.

BTW, I enjoy the particular shot you're showing us.  The irony is that it would turn out okay on any camera with a good lens --from the 5dII to a Samsung NX, to an Olympus EM10III.  They'd all have different strengths  and weaknesses, but the shot would pretty much be the shot, right?  I mean, if you're not gonna move yourself or light it, what can you do?

However, let's say you had an Alexa Mini with you.  Our digital gold-standard, right?  The IQ would be better, but, you know, not exactly wildly better either...

I'm old enough to remember the indy film debates about 16mm vs. 35mm.  Everyone knows which format is superior, but sometimes it really didn't matter enough to spend for 35.  Folks kind of had their median when it came to balancing budget with IQ.  And super 16 always had it's own mojo anyway, so you'd just embrace what it offered.

[kye]

2 hours ago, fuzzynormal said:

That's cool.  Experiment with other cameras. (or lenses)  I do.  We should play around with stuff like the OG's did with film stock.  The new tech is awesome, let's enjoy it.

The OP frets about making a mistake buying a certain cam.  If any of us feel up against it, by all means change gear.  I've just become content with what I got; doesn't mean anyone else needs to or should.

I suppose it's really about how close you are to the edge of what the equipment is capable of.  

I've posted about the GH5's limitations and how the GH6 is better in many ways, and probably not worse in that many, cost being a notable exception of course.  Truth is that I'd be nervous about buying any camera other than a GH6.  I've been around long enough to hear that camera manufacturers fill them with all kind of stupid stuff that can really bite you in the backside if you don't know about it.  It's normally certain combinations of things, like in certain modes certain features aren't available or don't work as well, etc.  I heard semi-recently from somewhere that in full-auto a camera doesn't smoothly adjust the exposure level, but goes up or down in steps while recording.  I was stunned to hear this and made me wonder what the hell else that camera (and others) does or doesn't do that is completely ridiculous.

2 hours ago, fuzzynormal said:

BTW, I enjoy the particular shot you're showing us.  The irony is that it would turn out okay on any camera with a good lens --from the 5dII to a Samsung NX, to an Olympus EM10III.  They'd all have different strengths  and weaknesses, but the shot would pretty much be the shot, right?  I mean, if you're not gonna move yourself or light it, what can you do?

However, let's say you had an Alexa Mini with you.  Our digital gold-standard, right?  The IQ would be better, but, you know, not exactly wildly better either...

I'm old enough to remember the indy film debates about 16mm vs. 35mm.  Everyone knows which format is superior, but sometimes it really didn't matter enough to spend for 35.  Folks kind of had their median when it came to balancing budget with IQ.  And super 16 always had it's own mojo anyway, so you'd just embrace what it offered.

Actually, the irony is that the shot in question would probably be unusable from a 5d2 or an NX (I don't know the Oly well enough to comment).  The camera was on auto-ISO and auto-SS and the Voigtlander 17.5mm was fully open at F0.95, so the SS would have been 360-degrees and there's enough noise in the shot for me to know the ISO was really being pushed.  IIRC I also lowered the exposure (using exp compensation) so that the background wasn't completely obscured, pushing the subject lower into the exposure range.  
Note that the BTS shot, which was taken with a modern iPhone, is out-of-focus.  Think about how low-light the situation must have been for a phone to not be able to focus on anything in the frame!

This is one of the shots that shows how well the GH5 operates under pressure - many of my shots are right at the limits of the IBIS, SS, lens T-stop, ISO performance, and right at the limits of my ability to grade the footage and bring out the best in it.  I know that many of my shots are right at this limit because many are actually past that limit and I can't salvage.  

That's kind of the unspoken undercurrent of this thread.  Depending on how heavily you rely on the features of the GH5, there may literally not be a better camera in existence (except the GH6).
Many brands offering better low-light, colour science, DR, etc etc, but IBIS is substantially worse on all options except Olympus who can match the IBIS, but don't offer every feature of the GH5 still, and definitely not the GH6.  
Even the FF Panasonics have their own drawbacks, the S1 and S5 are cripple-hammered because they're not the S1H, and the S1H is large and expensive and still lacks all the features
I hit the limits of the stabilisation of the GH5 quite often.  Mostly it's due to being cold or low blood sugar.  I'm shooting with manual lenses of course, so could get better stabilisation by using an OIS lens, but you'll lose a couple of stops of low-light, and guess when you often get cold - at night..  when it's dark!

In reality, there could just as easily be a thread about who hasn't upgraded from the GH5 because it is still the best compromise for all the things that you need in a camera.  The image quality is actually the worst feature of the GH5 - the best features are all the ones that add up to you being able to get the shot in the first place.  

I took the OG BMPCC out to shoot once, for a visit to a festival in a park, and that was enough to tell me it wasn't going to work for me.  The screen couldn't tilt, I couldn't see it in daylight, I could solve that with a monitor but that would double the size of the camera which defeated the point, and the poor screen meant that I couldn't focus properly, etc...  I spent so long getting each nice b-roll shot (and once graded they were genuinely lovely, the ones in focus that is) that I literally lost where my wife went and had to skip part of the place to find her again.  Most of the spontaneous moments had evaporated before I was able to get the focus and exposure dialled in.  This is all completely appropriate and not the fault of the BMPCC - it IS a cinema camera after all!  It's that life doesn't wait for the camera to be ready.

Of course, the easier your shoots are, the less these things matter to you.  If you hit record on your camera and know what's going to happen with the lighting and composition of the shot, even 20s from now, then the demands on the camera you choose are significantly less.  

Anyone who can control the action to wait for the camera has such a different experience of shooting that they practically live in a separate universe.

[Stab]

These are the camera's I have owned:

- Canon 60D
Then saw footage of the GH2 and was blown away. Since the GH3 was 'around the corner', I waited for that and bought it on the day of release.
- GH3
- GH5 
- GH5-S
- S1

And later added S5 and S1H to the fleet because I need multiple bodies for wedding shooting. 

I'm happy for now. Shooting anamorphic. Great photo capabilities as wel. I don't mind the 1.5x crop in 4k 50p, I think S35 is the sweet spot for videography work. Shooting at f1.8 is still doable focus wise, but has nice separation and is better in low light than shooting at f2.8 in full frame mode. Image quality is virtually the same in full frame mode / s35 mode with much better rolling shutter in s35 mode. With the 1.33x anamorphic lenses and shooting in the 4:3 crop, I'm actually getting about 1.39x crop since the 4:3 sensor crop is a bit taller than the 16:9 s35 crop.

So that's almost APS-H territory. 10-bit colors. V-log. Good rolling shutter. Small file sizes. Great dynamic range. Good low light performance. A great viewfinder (not the s5 though). Good IBIS and even compensates for anamorphic lenses.  I'm done really. New camera's don't even interest me anymore. I got everything I want in a camera and more.

The only things that could be improved in an S2 or so are:

- Video AF, obviously, but I don't care about it since I use manual anamorphic lenses
- Better rolling shutter in full frame mode. Again, I don't care cause I barely use that mode.
- Maybe a ProRes mode of RAW mode for even better colors (won't use it for weddings though)
- OLPF should be fitted on all S-bodies cause there is a lot of moiré / alliassing going on. The S1H is clearly the best in that regard since it's the only body with one equipped.
- The 120 fps full HD modes aren't very good. Riddled with aliassing, low detail and noise. 

I now have 4 S-line bodies and I'm invested deeply in the L-mount so I won't change anytime soon. Very happy with the images coming out of them.

[jgharding]

On 3/16/2022 at 5:20 AM, thehebrewhammer said:

One thing that I love about the S line is the Fotodiox ND Throttle adapter, which essentially gives me an EF mount with a built in variable ND behind the lens. I have the L mount 24-105 but I never really use it. My Contax kit has been a thrill to use with this, and for a zoom I just piked up and am testing a Tokina 28-70mm 2.8.

I should definitely get one of those!

[MrSMW]

3 hours ago, Stab said:

The only things that could be improved in an S2 or so are:

- Video AF, obviously
- OLPF should be fitted on all S-bodies cause there is a lot of moiré / aliasing going on. The S1H is clearly the best in that regard since it's the only body with one equipped.

I'm done right there!

A slightly smaller/lighter series 2 would be welcome, but otherwise the above.

But that will never be...even if they do continue the line because all new cameras have to be some great leap over what came before or just get labelled mkii versions.

I was all set to make my S5 my primary video tool for this year, but have just decided to reverse that decision and put the S1H back rightly where it belongs, - as my primary.

S1H A cam because it's the best video camera I have with the best rear screen and best IBIS, plus the OLPF...and it just takes one groom all day long with a shiny suit...

S5 reverts back to B cam because despite it being the smallest and lightest of my trio, it does lag by the tiniest margin behind the S1H in the IBIS department and arguably the S1H by virtue of it's size/weight makes it a better platform anyway. Plus I really hate having to use a rear screen not in line with the lens. 

S1R principally stills but will also be used this year as a C cam, purely during the ceremony. A + B are on tripods front left and front right, the S1H just rolling rolling rolling with fixed subject (The Ceremony) and the S5 rolling for the duration and focused mainly on The Ceremony, but will also be turned for some front row(s) capture. Meanwhile, the S1R will get flipped over to video mode for a few seconds here and there as I rove, particularly from the rear whilst shooting stills.

I was going to flip to OM Systems and their new OM-1, but too soon for me.

This year is now 100% nailed down as L Mount, - zero chance of change, even if I won the lottery and something 100% perfect for me was launched.

Next year however...

1: Hoping for a next gen S2-H/R and S52-HR but not holding my breath on either.

2: Keeping an eye on Sigma, but as their FP/L has 6 'faults' in my eyes, not holding my breath there either.

3: Fuji XH2 could be a contender, but no change for change sake here unless it is 'better' than what I have already by a quantifiable margin.

4: OM-1 still in the running.

5: Nikon/Canon/Sony not in the running for me.

Nothing else even remotely meeting my needs.

[thehebrewhammer]

On 3/16/2022 at 6:25 AM, webrunner5 said:

Then they would have defeated the purpose of the GH5s.

Not for me. I do run and gun documentary and IBIS makes a big difference. The low light and dynamic range of the GH5 were always its weak spots. GH6 offers this and more, though, and I'm still not too inclined to switch back over to MFT.

[kye]

1 hour ago, thehebrewhammer said:

Not for me. I do run and gun documentary and IBIS makes a big difference. The low light and dynamic range of the GH5 were always its weak spots. GH6 offers this and more, though, and I'm still not too inclined to switch back over to MFT.

I think you missed the point.  The GH5S was a non-IBIS camera designed for use in externally stabilised circumstances (ie, gimbals, tripods, steadicams, vehicle mounts, etc) where the IBIS mechanism would cause problems (eg, the sensor would wobble after a bump) and a fixed sensor is the preferred design.  

If you rely on IBIS (as I do) the GH5ii or GH6 are the upgrades to the GH5.  The GH5S was the start of a parallel line of fixed-sensor cameras that happened to come out with some improved specs and happened to come out around when the GH5 replacement would have been nice and happened to have a similar body and happened to have a similar name.

Saying that "imagine how successful Panasonic would have been if they just made a gh5s with IBIS a few years ago" is basically saying that you wanted a hypothetical camera that would have been popular.  So on that note....

Imagine how successful Panasonic would have been if they just made a GH6 with 18 stops of DR and internal RAW in 2014!

[Thpriest]

I had a GH5 and GH5S and eventually changed to the S5 and S1. I had a Sony A73 for a year but sold it as it would over heat and the sensor was always blotchy. The menus were tedious and the VF and LCD weren't very good. It could make nice images but I just didn't enjoy the camera.

I use my S5 and S1 for all sorts of filming, corporate, fashion, interviews, weddings and I also use them for streaming or filming events were you have to leave the camera to film 2 hours non stop. For the price there are no other cameras that can do that.

I'd love a FX3 and A7S3 but that would cost me 7500€ whereas my 2 Panasonics cost me less than 3000€.

But I do think about AF a lot! If money wasn't a problem I'd probably have gone with Sony for the AF (I'm 47 and my eyes aren't what they were!). 

[TomTheDP]

I believe I got a Fuji XT3 after getting rid of my GH5. Definitely a step up in terms of color and dynamic range. Having 4k 60p in 10 bit and a nice HD 120p was cool. I still think the XT3 is an amazing price at $900 used right now. Its an awesome stills camera to boot. Only downside is the 30 minute record limit.

I think I got an S1 after that and ended up getting rid of the Fuji. I like Fuji color more but the S1 image is a step up in every other way and color with full VLOG is fine. Its hard to argue the image on the S1. It's up there with the RED komodo if you are shooting RAW.

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

I still think the XT3 is an amazing price at $900 used right now. Its an awesome stills camera to boot.

Indeed and one of the absolute bargain cameras of recent times.

I never went from mine to the XT4 as I thought I would, a mixture of timing due to Covid and the launch of the S5.

OK, I would rather have the battery of the XT4 and it's IBIS, but otherwise would rather have an XT3 for it's rear screen.

I absolutely hate hate hate (and hate is a strong word) these flippy out rear screens.

Tilt up, tilt down, in-line with the lens. Job done.

It's one of my 2 big grievances with the S5:

A: The non-damped shutter which the S1H and S1R have. BIG for me as a photographer.

B: The flip out rear screen which I absolutely hate. BIG for me as a videographer.

It keeps coming back to the same thing for me and that is no camera company currently makes my 'perfect' camera.

Panny for me has be the combo of the S1R/S1H/S5 with tweaked AF as a whole, but no single body is quite right. The closest out there however. They need to have a threesome and make a child.

Fuji frustrate me with my preference for the rear screen of the XT3, but the battery and IBIS of the XT4. Maybe the XH2 will solve this...

OM System OM-1 ticks all my size, weight and video specs, but has a question mark over it's stills capability for my needs.

Ditto the GH6 as in the video spec is even better, but for stills... I'd need to test it but don't believe it would match an S5/S1 never mind an S1R.

Canon too expensive and too problematic with the overheating issues.

Not really a Sony fan, but the A7iv paired with an FX3 comes closest, but the cost man, - at least double the price of my current set up to achieve what, better AF, but that's about it.

Nikon. I like Nikon. They were my tools of choice for the first 10 years of my career. Film and then digital and if they can get the spec of the Z9 into the next gen Z6 and Z7, it could be an option.

Leica. Great quality of video (SL2-S) and stills (both SL2 and the S), but lacking any form of tilt screen which would frustrate me as a run & gun hybrid wedding shooter. Plus the cost is waaaaaay above my pay grade. At least to go full system.

Sigma? The FP-L ticks several boxes but has more boxes un-ticked than any other manufacturer. IBIS, tilt screen, 4k 50/60p, twin back up card slots, not good enough e:shutter only... How much can you give up to use something before it won't do what you need it to do no matter how much you want to like it?

Ultimately it's always about compromise somewhere.

I think we're so close to eliminating it, at least for my needs but not quite yet.