Andrew... you went with a RED?!

[TomTheDP]

51 minutes ago, Django said:

I disagree. In between CS, DR, codecs and specific IQ related features there is a lot to gain by going with one of these top tier cine cams. I mean look at all the cool IQ features in the Dragon-X including various OLPFs and highlight roll off options:

I have owned the Scarlet, the dynamic range is ok, color science was ok. The Epic Dragon 6k sensor is better but the color science is still a bit off.  The Komodo is right next to ARRI color science wise but dynamic range isn't there. Raptor has the color science spot on and the dynamic range is there too. It keeps the information in the shadows vs in the highlights like ARRI. I assume the Helium and Monstro image are pretty nice but I have never worked with them.

The dynamic range on an A7S3 or S1H in RAW would be greater than a Scarlet, with way better light sensitivity. But you have to deal with a poor HDMI output(poor latency, less sturdy, not accurate rec709 image).

Of course RED has a patent on the best codec available so that puts them up pretty high even on their 10 year old models.

 

[mercer]

3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Decided to get a proper RAW cine camera. It was between RED and Blackmagic. The RED seems to have more mojo, especially the older EPIC and Scarlet. I am also trying a RAVEN out.

The older REDs are not expensive now. Paid £1790 for an EPIC-X, with 5K 120fps RAW.

But when building it out, that's when the costs start rising.

But for under $3500 you can definitely get a good kit.

It's about the dynamic range and RED raw for me. The colour science is also very nice.

That seems like a decent price, did you find it locally? I'm very curious about your thoughts on the Raven. From what I've watched online, the Scarlet and the Raven have a really interesting IQ. I'm looking forward to your tests!

[kaylee]

congrats, @Andrew Reid!

could you all broadly expand on the progress in color science between these REDs? I haven't kept up...

[TomTheDP]

16 minutes ago, kaylee said:

congrats, @Andrew Reid!

could you all broadly expand on the progress in color science between these REDs? I haven't kept up...

Well my opinion is that RED rushed their products to the Market. If you look at the image from an Alexa Classic, which came out around 2011 same time as the Scarlet, it's image aside from resolution is pretty much identical to the more recent Alexa LF. If you compare the RED Scarlet to the most recent RED you can't say the same thing.

 Red has continually put completely different sensors in next gen cameras since the start. The image pipeline from RED has also changed. The older RED cameras are known for being pretty dang accurate in Daylight but not so much tungsten. It improved with the 6K epic dragon sensor. I really think they have nailed it with the Komodo. I compared all three cameras Epic Dragon, Komodo and the Alexa Classic. The Komodo was pretty much identical, the Drgaon looked quite a bit different.

I mean that was part of the appeal of REDRAW, you can get any look you want. It was meant to be something you had to fiddle with in post. The ARRI look has been known to be life like, what you see is what you get. Can't say the same for RED, at least in the past. Cameras in general are much more color accurate now though. I was really shocked how easily the Sigma FP matched to the Alexa. The gap is closing in on ARRI.

That said older RED cameras definitely have an appeal. The name still stands high in film circles and there are a lot of advantages to a camera designed for cinema use. It pisses me off incredibly that RED has their RAW patent, but you can't get around that 16 bit REDraw is a joy to work with.

[IronFilm]

7 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

The dynamic range on an A7S3 or S1H in RAW would be greater than a Scarlet, with way better light sensitivity. But you have to deal with a poor HDMI output(poor latency, less sturdy, not accurate rec709 image).

The Panasonic BS1H has no latency on their SDI output?

I guess the BS1H is a way you could get some of the benefits of a cinema camera, at the low price of a S1H with its great image as well. 

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, TomTheDP said:

Well my opinion is that RED rushed their products to the Market. If you look at the image from an Alexa Classic, which came out around 2011 same time as the Scarlet, it's image aside from resolution is pretty much identical to the more recent Alexa LF. If you compare the RED Scarlet to the most recent RED you can't say the same thing.

Makes it a pain to mix and match REDs from different eras in a production 

But mixing and matching an ARRI Alexa Classic with an ARRI Mini LF?? Even in the same shot? No big deal 

  

1 hour ago, TomTheDP said:

Cameras in general are much more color accurate now though. I was really shocked how easily the Sigma FP matched to the Alexa. The gap is closing in on ARRI.

A pity the Sigma FP is such a pain to shoot with.

[TomTheDP]

32 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

The Panasonic BS1H has no latency on their SDI output?

I guess the BS1H is a way you could get some of the benefits of a cinema camera, at the low price of a S1H with its great image as well. 

I heard it has the same poor latency. Don't ask me how with SDI.

 

29 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Makes it a pain to mix and match REDs from different eras in a production 

But mixing and matching an ARRI Alexa Classic with an ARRI Mini LF?? Even in the same shot? No big deal 

  

A pity the Sigma FP is such a pain to shoot with.

Yeah I mean all I really need is full HDMI, you can rig the rest out, may not be the best rig but it so small it makes up for it kind of. Not really for high end sets at the end of the day.

But hey if the micro HDMI breaks I suppose you can just have another another cam on standby at the price point they go for. It is annoying though.

[MrSMW]

I’d only had a couple of gins (honest) but I read that Andrew had bought a red kimono.

It’s not the same thing is it?

Looking forward to seeing where this Red path leads…

[tupp]

26 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

I read that Andrew had bought a red kimono.

It’s not the same thing is it?

 

One is for fan boys, the other is for fan girls:

[mercer]

@Andrew Reid I saw your Raven build at the site's Twitter feed. Is that a Red Volt battery or can it take V Mounts or even Micro V Mounts? It seems like a tidy little set up. Also what lens do you have on it? And finally, have you made any decisions?

[PannySVHS]

I think Gemini is an interesting prospect. A few less exiting things Read about Red Raven:) Sensor size closer to mft than to S35, noisy and subpar compared to the other cams. Next music video I would love to do with a Red, next paid musicvideo, I must add .:)

[webrunner5]

The only praise I will give to Red back in the day was they did, with the Raven, introduce a cheaper solution that an average person could somewhat afford. They did sell a boat load of them.

[Andrew Reid]

23 hours ago, mercer said:

@Andrew Reid I saw your Raven build at the site's Twitter feed. Is that a Red Volt battery or can it take V Mounts or even Micro V Mounts? It seems like a tidy little set up. Also what lens do you have on it? And finally, have you made any decisions?

You can mount any V-lock battery including the tiny modern ones on Amazon from Fxlion directly to the RED I/O expander or RED V-mount adapter that bolts to the back of the RAVEN or other DSMC2 RED cameras. No cables or rods required. Can't seem to do same with EPIC and SCARLET, they just have a lemo connector and you need D-tap to lemo cable plus rods and mounting solution for your V-lock battery.

[mercer]

@Andrew Reid that's convenient. Those smaller V Mounts aren't too bulky. How much of a charge can you get off a 99?

[Andrew Reid]

I have a 50Wh and a 99Wh. Both under 500g in weight. All still to test in anger. I'll put it all in the review.