Canon EOS R7 and R10 have released...

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, kye said:

The wedding shooters I've seen (those that actually run real businesses - eg Scott McKenna) basically say that the amount of work and learning curve for hiring one person (or coming to have your business rely on services that require another contractor to deliver) is so large that you should only do it if your plan is to scale the business to the point where you're not shooting, you've got half-a-dozen crews going each weekend, and your exit strategy is to sell the business in a few years and pocket the money.

Yep.

Unless your second shooter/assistant is your spouse, it can and usually does have so many issues.

More issues created than solved.

Been there, done that and there are times when I wish I had one, or at least a roadie, but the amount of time is too little vs the effort/cost/reliability.

My ‘solution’ is my ongoing quest to have the most minimalist kit I can and further to that, know it inside out so it gets out of the way and is not cumbersome.

I’m still on that path. Pretty close, but not quite with my current set up. Next gen L Mount or another system next year will iron out those few final kinks.

Quite a bit of being a one man (hybrid) band these days is due to the tech…

I probably could do what I do today 10 years back…in fact know I could because I was doing it, just not at the same level. But 20 years back? Nah.

Some like to say it’s not about the tools, but actually, increasingly so, it is. For certain things.

[Django]

20 hours ago, herein2020 said:

 

I wouldn't mind slowly going all native RF lenses, but due to the crop, the cost of the speedbooster which I already purchased, the fact the speedbooster is bolted to the C70 (making switching lens mounts harder), and the additional stop of light gained with the speedbooster for a camera that is not that great in low light (C70), I will probably just permanently be stuck with EF glass. 

 

 

I like the 18-135 EF-S as well for when I am shooting for personal use, it is a very useful lens for simple shoots during daylight hours. The Canon ND adapter converter is so expensive it is easier to just stick with screw on ND filters to me, my current filters I use for photography already and with the Canon set you still have to buy a clear drop in for when  you don't have an ND filter in the adapter.

For me the crop sensor agony is that I like to keep my kit simple, the fewest lenses possible, a single system, etc. I shoot crazy chaotic events and do it all solo (photography, video, audio, drone, lighting, etc.) I don't want to have to fiddle with multiple lens mounts, crop sensor vs FF, etc. in addition to everything else that is out of my control. 

The problem with crop sensor cameras is you need to buy lenses for them that you won't use on a FF camera. My photography camera is FF and I don't want lenses in my bag that I can't use on every camera at the event completely interchangeably. With the C70 this was fixed by the speed booster. If I got the R7 it would need a speedbooster as well.

I want to be able to grab a 50mm, or 24-105mm, or 70-200 and have the same FOV regardless of what camera I put it on vs buying 16mm or the 15-35mm just because I have a crop sensor camera. I've even had to swap lenses between my photography bodies and video bodies mid shoot to get a certain focal length....that would be harder with a mixture of crop sensor, S35, and FF all with different crop conversions.

So individually yes....a crop sensor is no big deal, but when you have to use it with a mixture of other cameras and need complete interchangeability and simplicity it can become a thorn in your side at the worse possible moment. I have had to grab a body, rig it for an interview (audio, lighting, stabilizer) within minutes then after the interview is over grab a light stand, flash trigger, modifier, and studio strobe and head to the other side of the venue for a photo shoot. So for my particular needs, my kit just needs to work and everything needs to interchange with everything else as quickly and simply as possible. 

The R7 does look promising to me though, maybe I can put a single "hero" lens on it like the 24-105 F4 with a speedbooster opening that aperture up to an F2.8 and just never take off that lens and use it for everything like a walkaround lens for both photography and video. Currently the EF 24-105mm F4 is almost the only lens I use on the C70; that extra stop of light really turns that mediocre lens into something way more useable.

hmm.. so you're exclusively into EF FF lenses & FoV.. but your main cam is a S35 RF C70 & you're considering the APS-C R7 which is also RF?  Obviously you could put speed boosters on both but what a convoluted approach. Not taking a dig at your gear choices as I understand the paradigm you are faced with. As for now the only FF mirrorless that don't overheat are the R5C & R3, but one doesn't have IBIS and the other is ridiculously expensive. Canon needs to release a sub $3K FF with IBIS that doesn't overheat as well as sub $6K FF cine cam. In the mean time, yeah R7 is probably as you say the accidental best choice for an affordable Canon hybrid.

But in your shoes it would make better sense to go with Sony as they now have a very wide range of native compact FF lenses that compares to EF as well as FF cine cams (FX3, FX6, FX9). No adapters/boosters needed. Lot less headache. 

But of course, switching systems isn't a meagre affair and you're well invested in Canon so not an option I assume.

I am on a dual system and even though I better appreciate the ergonomics, shooting experience, AF and skin tones of Canon, I am also at the same time tempted to dump them and go all-in with Sony. I already have the metabones speed booster so I could even keep my favourite EF lenses, and by setting the Sony to S35 mode gain the stop of light. But 90% of the time I'd probably be on native Sony lenses as I simply hate messing around with adapters (including on my R6). Also very tempted to go back to Fuji with the XH2S.

Staying put at the moment but if within 6 months nothing really moves in the right direction from Canon I might seriously reconsider.

 

 

[ade towell]

https://www.canonrumors.com/canon-to-finally-bring-a-successor-to-the-cinema-eos-c200/

Looks like there may be a C200 mk2 coming, sounds like a C300 mk3 with swappable EF and Rf mount.

Seems Canon are investing in apsc they just need some decent RF lenses to show they're fully committed as I agree the lens situation isn't great at the moment

[Django]

interesting, also missed the rumours of an R7C:

The Canon EOS R7 C will record 7K60P in Cinema RAW Light and will reportedly have the same codec options as other Cinema EOS cameras, including the Canon EOS R5 C.

https://www.canonrumors.com/a-canon-eos-r7-c-is-on-the-way-but-not-in-2022-cr3/

If priced nice and with IBIS that could be a real winner..

[herein2020]

On 7/5/2022 at 6:27 PM, webrunner5 said:

The only negative I have about Canon EF lenses are that they are Huge and Heavy, even the 24-105 F4 is a moose. I will give Sony credit their FF FE lenses are pretty small and light. 

That 24-105 F4 on the R7 would probably be front heavy as heck I bet.

 

I actually like big heavy kit, it keeps everything more stable and I've been shooting on it so long it doesn't seem big or heavy to me, but yes, now that you mention it, the 24-105mm on a body smaller than the R5 especially with the adapter will be greatly imbalanced. I used the 24-105 on the S5 with an adapter all the time though and it felt fine to me, but that was with a cage and handles, something I am not sure if I would add to the R7.

@Kisaha @kye nailed it. Everything seems like it has an easy answer until you have tried it.  Bringing in a second shooter exponentially increases the complexity of everything; risk to the equipment, risk to the project if the second shooter doesn't show, or doesn't match your style, or has a setting wrong, increases the cost of the project which already has razor thin margins, greatly increases the tax paperwork at the end of the year, etc. etc.  That's all assuming the person is even reliable and actually shows up. 

I have had to bring in second shooters in the past and most of the time it ended up being a lot more work for me. Once I hired a second shooter for an extremely simple drone job because I was not available that day. They just had to film a construction site, I barely made more than a referral fee and was going to edit the raw files. The person parked his car and the client's car right in the middle of the construction site and took all 100 images that were needed. To me it was very unprofessional to have him and the client in the footage....so I had to spend 2hrs on what should have been 20min of work Photoshopping out his car, the client's car, and him and the client from every photo.

Once I had a client mandate two shooters, a dedicated videographer and a dedicated photographer. I hired a photographer, but due to my paranoia I took my own photos as well. Second shooter showed up with dual 1DXIII's and full kit. I thought this was going to be a good shoot. I got his footage home and every image had the horizon horribly tilted....once again took me hours to fix his footage and I had to throw away a lot of it because there was nothing left after cropping in enough to straighten the horizon. Fortunately I had taken my own images as well.

Also, my particular area is very competitive; I work the biggest fashion shows and events in the area and next week I am shooting the biggest swimwear fashion show in the world (Miami Swim Week). Anyone I brought on I would have to risk them handing out their cards, trying to get my client lists, wearing my shirts and possibly giving my company a bad name, etc.....its happened to many people I know. There's always someone in line behind you waiting for you to trip or fall.

So yes, I analyze my business all the time as well as my kit and look for every second of efficiencies that I can; like @kye said, its easy to imagine ways to improve and on paper they might seem great until you are in that person's shoes. 

Also, like Kye mentioned, backups are very important and not discussed very often. I still pack a fully rigged S5 with me as a just in case backup for the C70. That's where equivalent focal lengths are also important. The R7 could serve as a backup to both my C70 and R5 if it had a speedbooster attached.

 

@MrSMW also hit the nail on the head and was the exact thing I was going to say; the most successful two person teams that I have seen are nearly always a couple. With a couple many of the challenges I mentioned earlier go away, even the tax problems, liability, reliability, etc. etc. It introduces other problems 🙂 but that's a different story for a different day.

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Django said:

hmm.. so you're exclusively into EF FF lenses & FoV.. but your main cam is a S35 RF C70 & you're considering the APS-C R7 which is also RF?  Obviously you could put speed boosters on both but what a convoluted approach. Not taking a dig at your gear choices as I understand the paradigm you are faced with. As for now the only FF mirrorless that don't overheat are the R5C & R3, but one doesn't have IBIS and the other is ridiculously expensive. Canon needs to release a sub $3K FF with IBIS that doesn't overheat as well as sub $6K FF cine cam. In the mean time, yeah R7 is probably as you say the accidental best choice for an affordable Canon hybrid.

But in your shoes it would make better sense to go with Sony as they now have a very wide range of native compact FF lenses that compares to EF as well as FF cine cams (FX3, FX6, FX9). No adapters/boosters needed. Lot less headache. 

But of course, switching systems isn't a meagre affair and you're well invested in Canon so not an option I assume.

I am on a dual system and even though I better appreciate the ergonomics, shooting experience, AF and skin tones of Canon, I am also at the same time tempted to dump them and go all-in with Sony. I already have the metabones speed booster so I could even keep my favourite EF lenses, and by setting the Sony to S35 mode gain the stop of light. But 90% of the time I'd probably be on native Sony lenses as I simply hate messing around with adapters (including on my R6). Also very tempted to go back to Fuji with the XH2S.

Staying put at the moment but if within 6 months nothing really moves in the right direction from Canon I might seriously reconsider.

 

 

 

Yes that is my conundrum...but I am used to odd kit decisions; my S5 with no CAF due to the EF adapter was an odd setup as well but it worked perfectly for my needs at the time. For me economics is a big part of my decision making process; I have technically never left Canon since I still had the 5DIV and the EF lenses and the C200.  I am still not a fan of Sony, but I do think if I was starting over with no lenses and no bodies Sony would be the better fit. I am trying to twist and turn Canon's solutions to force them to fit my workflow and needs; is it optimal...no, but is it the most economical approach...so far I think so.

With dual crop bodies and dual speedboosters along with my existing EF glass I would have everything I need; full immediate toolless interchangeability between all bodies and all lenses, battery sharing between the R5 and R7, SD card sharing between all 3 bodies, lens sharing between all 3 bodies, IBIS in the R7 for video, RAW in the C70, a backup to both the R5 and the C70 (the R7) for both video and photography, a lighter gimbal camera with the R7, excellent AF in all 3 bodies, XLR audio in the C70 and R7...etc, etc. Just the other day I left one of my SD cards in the card reader at home and when I got onsite for the shoot I just pulled the SD card out of the C70 and threw it in the R5....it was fantastic. 

I am in no hurry to get the R7 though, so I am curious about the R7C rumors, the body is so small even if it needs a fan it might still be good on battery life, so I may keep my spare S5 until I get more details on the R7C. If it turns out to be a clunky battery hog like the R5C then I'll probably just get the R7 instead.

 

[IronFilm]

7 hours ago, ade towell said:

https://www.canonrumors.com/canon-to-finally-bring-a-successor-to-the-cinema-eos-c200/

Looks like there may be a C200 mk2 coming, sounds like a C300 mk3 with swappable EF and Rf mount.

Seems Canon are investing in apsc they just need some decent RF lenses to show they're fully committed as I agree the lens situation isn't great at the moment

So it is a C300 mk3 with a RF Mount? Sounds good! Better than the C200 mk1 was. 

But what will the cripple about the C200 mk2 so they can price it lower? Refuse to give us a middle codec again?

[Kisaha]

I hear you guys, but then truth is that video is a team based job. Even having to carry everything from the car, having a camera on a totally different and remote place, running 2/3/4 cameras simultaneously or whatever..

..whatever you are writing against it, I can write back a few dozen pages. 

Just say you have a different workflow, and I respect that, but assistance is always helpful. I only do the smaller of the jobs alone these days.

Of course my background is film and tv series, so I am more used to work with people, working alone is a photographer's stance, while moving images is more of a team orientated work, especially we that started with a NO leds and a NO mirrorless cameras work environment. Only to move the medium lights (have you ever seen a 6K?!) you needed 2-3 persons back then..

Anyways, let's stick to the R7, I would be willing to wait for the R7C one, as I have plenty of cameras at the moment, but how close is this camera is still largely unknown, and at what price that would be available? 3.000-3.500? I am quite puzzled at the moment. damn rumors!

[Django]

9 hours ago, IronFilm said:

So it is a C300 mk3 with a RF Mount? Sounds good! Better than the C200 mk1 was. 

But what will the cripple about the C200 mk2 so they can price it lower? Refuse to give us a middle codec again?

No way. The C70 is already an RF C300 mk3 just without EVF/SDI etc. They didn't cripple it, in fact they recently gave it RAW. Besides middle codec is now standard across the range including $1500 R7.

My guess is C300 mk3 will get a significant drop before being phased out for a mk4 with RF mount and new sensor, high resolution etc.

[IronFilm]

True, the C70 (plus others) limits greatly just how much a C200 mk2 could be crippled. Rather this is just a sign that the C300mk3 is on its way out, and a C300mk4 is coming next year??

[PannySVHS]

Hmm, love the image and the colours coming out of this thing. Good battery life, no overheating, full hdmi and with 15ms or sub 15ms rolling shutter, this could be an appealing camera to me. This footage below is my favorite so far from all the new bunch, including Z9, GH6, XH2s, R5, which I´ve seen on youtube. Looks like a BMMCC or BMPCC on roids. 🙂

 

[webrunner5]

It might kind of look like a BMMCC or BMPCC on roids, but it also looks like it has 8, 9 stops of DR. That is where it is going to fall on it's ass. That is the downfall with most cameras, crap DR. No free lunch.

[herein2020]

9 hours ago, Kisaha said:

I hear you guys, but then truth is that video is a team based job. Even having to carry everything from the car, having a camera on a totally different and remote place, running 2/3/4 cameras simultaneously or whatever..

..whatever you are writing against it, I can write back a few dozen pages. 

Just say you have a different workflow, and I respect that, but assistance is always helpful. I only do the smaller of the jobs alone these days.

Yes but you are skipping budget, the types of work you are referencing had the budget for it, event work which I do has razor thin margins and the organizers question the ROI on my services probably every year....with a big enough budget anything is possible, for event work the budget simply isn't there so any assistant that I hire would come out of my own profits and because the hourly rate would be low for the assistant you get what you pay for. And yes, I do hire assistants for things like talent management, talent direction, etc for larger modeling shoots but I am still the only shooter.

If I had the budget to pay assistants $50/hr+ I am sure I'd have a great team by now....but that's not going to happen in my particular niche of the industry.

9 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Anyways, let's stick to the R7, I would be willing to wait for the R7C one, as I have plenty of cameras at the moment, but how close is this camera is still largely unknown, and at what price that would be available? 3.000-3.500? I am quite puzzled at the moment. damn rumors!

I don't think it would be much more than $2500USD, it is still a crop sensor, and still has plenty of competition from Sony and Panasonic, and it still has very few actual crop sensor lenses, it also remains to be seen how it performs in general against the competition. 

[newfoundmass]

11 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

no overheating

I really wish we'd get consistent information on this. Some insist there's no overheating, while others say it overheats after 45 or so minutes even in air conditioning. 

[MrSMW]

13 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

This footage below is my favorite so far from all the new bunch, including Z9, GH6, XH2s, R5, which I´ve seen on youtube. Looks like a BMMCC or BMPCC on roids.

No offence or criticism of you personally, but it looked like graded camcorder footage to me.

I wouldn't even call it 'filmic' never mind 'cinematic'.

I took a look both on my phone and full screen desktop PC.

It could just be a matter of taste, but as an example, this would not tempt me to buy this camera.

I suspect it's probably the grade rather than the camera...

Sorry, didn't like it at all!

[MrSMW]

22 hours ago, Kisaha said:

I hear you guys, but then truth is that video is a team based job. Even having to carry everything from the car, having a camera on a totally different and remote place, running 2/3/4 cameras simultaneously or whatever..

..whatever you are writing against it, I can write back a few dozen pages. 

Just say you have a different workflow, and I respect that, but assistance is always helpful. I only do the smaller of the jobs alone these days.

I think it depends on the specific job and the market/budget.

Most wedding/event videographers that I personally know, do work alone.

Not necessarily because they want to because of course, an assistant at least, never mind a second shooter would be welcome, but 9/10, you'd just price yourself out of the job and have no business.

I don't shoot anything more than weddings really. From time to time, something else, but really, just weddings and do so fully hybrid and I have to manage; 4 principle cameras, 1 back up camera/angle, drone, 6 audio devices, sometimes lighting and with 3 tripods at certain key times. 

Would I like a second shooter? Not really, - wouldn't really add anything that would make up for the increased cost to the client and overall, it would just harm my business.

An assistant/roadie? For sure...but finding someone with the reliability I would need and never mind the fact that I live out of my caravan/travel trailer for sometimes 1+ weeks peak season, wouldn't work from a personal perspective having someone 24/7.

It is of course very much a specific job/market thing and like many others, I make, or have made it work, but yes, ideally, I'd have a small team, but it's just not reality.

If only the missus was interested... But then we have a child, 2 dogs and a cat and anything over a single day just gets complicated.

Nope, I am resigned to the fact that I am a one man band and hence why I have an ongoing 'project' to finding the most minimal set up that I can.

Quite close regarding the latter, but not quite there though I suspect the next gen set up whenever I move to that, 2023 or 2024 latest, will have cracked that as far as it can be cracked.

Still working on:

A. Number of principle cameras. I need to get it from 4 to 3 and ideally, 3 identical hybrid bodies.

B. Size & weight of cameras and lenses. These are not bad, but slightly more than my personal ideal.

C. Tracking AF.

Horses for courses and all that... These are just my thoughts/opinions/needs 😬

[PannySVHS]

That's good. Would be dull if there was only one taste. @MrSMW I liked the lush colors while still providing subtle hues and the choice of grading in harsh light to go a bit over board with the highlights. Everything has a plasticity and physicality to it. But that is just what makes it sing to me. I love the look, the color palette and how colors still stay intact within this demanding grade. It reminds me of one of my favorite GH1 videos:

 

[kye]

19 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

Hmm, love the image and the colours coming out of this thing. Good battery life, no overheating, full hdmi and with 15ms or sub 15ms rolling shutter, this could be an appealing camera to me. This footage below is my favorite so far from all the new bunch, including Z9, GH6, XH2s, R5, which I´ve seen on youtube. Looks like a BMMCC or BMPCC on roids. 🙂

 

Looks nice, but not at all like BMMCC or OG BMPCC to me.  Those cameras mimicked the resolution and texture and noise of film, but this is too clean and modern and high-resolution to really give me that cinematic feel.  It is high-resolution, but it also LOOKS high resolution, which film never does, unless maybe you're talking 70mm or something, but that's not what I associate with cinema.

The aesthetic of cinema to me is like a dream.  Seeing actors on the big screen isn't real, it's not realistic, the stories and characters are not human beings - if you met the people in real life (or even see the actors being interviewed on TV) the illusion collapses into them being normal human beings, but that's not what cinema is, it's not how it feels.

Modern cameras seem to be getting closer to the dynamic range of film, which can be very nice when graded well, but they're moving away from film with resolution and clean noise-free images, which ultimately make the images less cinematic overall.

I think all the people on here who think that 4K can be cinematic (without enormous degradation in-post) have forgotten what film actually looks like, what cinema feels like.  That's fine - not everything needs to be cinematic - the market demands what it demands and that's fine, but it doesn't matter if you acclimate to something different (sterile ultra-resolution images) the subconscious still knows and it still misses the mark even if you're not aware of it consciously.

7 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I really wish we'd get consistent information on this. Some insist there's no overheating, while others say it overheats after 45 or so minutes even in air conditioning. 

We don't want consistency - in 1400ad there was consistency about the shape of the earth (flat) - we want a time-lapse video of the camera recording in a temperature-controlled cabinet.

[webrunner5]

5 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

That's good. Would be dull if there was only one taste. @MrSMW I liked the lush colors while still providing subtle hues and the choice of grading in harsh light to go a bit over board with the highlights. Everything has a plasticity and physicality to it. But that is just what makes it sing to me. I love the look, the color palette and how colors still stay intact within this demanding grade. It reminds me of one of my favorite GH1 videos:

 

I think it is a wonderful video. Just goes to show sometimes less is better in video. 

[herein2020]

This looks like a pretty good lowlight test for the R7, IMO as I expected, it is more than sufficient for my needs, it was very interesting seeing it compared to the R5C as well. Also, I did not realize until watching this video that the R5C and I assume the R5 has dual native ISO.

 

 

[webrunner5]

It looks like it is doing something good.