Canon EOS R7 and R10 have released...

[Kisaha]

Sorry to stay on topic.

I decided to go with the R7, is not available yet in my country but I will probably pre-order, as they offer the EF adapter for free if you do.

I am not sure if I go with the bundle option though, R7 + the 18-150mm EF-S..I already own the 18-135mm EF-S with the nano motors (used once!), which is amazing, ultra silent and super fast (for what it is..).

The RF-S says "lead screw type STM", which I translate "lesser technology" than the older EF-S.

Does anyone have an opinion on this?

I will try to find the Meike ND adapter also, seems like a nice addition and works a bit better than the Canon (on a more logical price range).

If I do not get the bundle, I will probably get one of the cheap RF primes, currently between the 35 or the 85. Reading mixed reviews on both those lenses..

Also, any suggestions for SD cards? What type do you think I will need?

[webrunner5]

Oh come on, they have the worse AF of Any camera manufacturer out here. That is not something you want on your tombstone. I got rid of my GH5 because I do birding and you can sure as hell forget that with that F ing camera. And I thought the color science was not so hot either.

I will Never buy another newer Panasonic camera until they come up with phase detect AF. And I sure as heck am not alone. They risk going belly up, I think the L alliance was a dumb ass move also. Leica played them like a fiddle. Leica took but didn't give.

[ntblowz]

3 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Sorry to stay on topic.

I decided to go with the R7, is not available yet in my country but I will probably pre-order, as they offer the EF adapter for free if you do.

I am not sure if I go with the bundle option though, R7 + the 18-150mm EF-S..I already own the 18-135mm EF-S with the nano motors (used once!), which is amazing, ultra silent and super fast (for what it is..).

The RF-S says "lead screw type STM", which I translate "lesser technology" than the older EF-S.

Does anyone have an opinion on this?

I will try to find the Meike ND adapter also, seems like a nice addition and works a bit better than the Canon (on a more logical price range).

If I do not get the bundle, I will probably get one of the cheap RF primes, currently between the 35 or the 85. Reading mixed reviews on both those lenses..

Also, any suggestions for SD cards? What type do you think I will need?

Your 18-135 have the better motor indeed with nano USM so paired with ND adapter will be very useful for video, I probably gonna use 18-35 1.8 for video work and the 18-150 for travel. I got m6 ii with 18-150 which i plan to sell once I got the r7 with 18-150. R5 with 24-240 is just a tad big/heavy for casual outting/trips for me.

R7 with IPB lite you can get away with v30 cards on 4k60p, just photos will be slower if shooting burst on uhs-1 cards. On normal IPB you do need v60 or more or camera will stop recording due to slow speed.

I have the breakthrough X4 VND drop in filter which is a lot better than Canon one with no blue colour shift between min to max ND level, that is really nice with 1.4 lens in bright daylight. ( I have to stop down with canon VND or unless you shoot day for night scene lol)

Both the 35mm and 85mm's focus speed is not as good as their EF counterpart due to their "macro" feature, but image quality is not bad. I used to have them but only have the RF 16 and 50mm left for much lighter setup. RF 16 will be nice on R7 as it becomes 25mm.  I m waiting for the RF 24mm 1.8 which is more useful for me focal length wise (becomes 38mm on R7), you can also go for the 24mm ef-s pancake for a more casual setup.

[newfoundmass]

12 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Oh come on, they have the worse AF of Any camera manufacturer out here. That is not something you want on your tombstone. I got rid of my GH5 because I do birding and you can sure as hell forget that with that F ing camera. And I thought the color science was not so hot either.

I will Never buy another newer Panasonic camera until they come up with phase detect AF. And I sure as heck am not alone. They risk going belly up, I think the L alliance was a dumb ass move also. Leica played them like a fiddle. Leica took but didn't give.

They need to switch AF if only for the PR/marketing. 

The issue I have is that a lot of people spew the "Panasonic auto focus is useless" stuff without having used it. They're basing it off of YouTubers that only had the camera for a brief period and who did unrealistic tests. It's different when it's @herein2020, @MurtlandPhoto, or you saying it because you guys have used the cameras, learned how to work around the limitations, but ultimately decided that AF was necessary for your needs.

My work would greatly benefit from Sony or Canon AF. But Panasonic ticks every other box, giving me things that I value more. All cameras have limitations, unfortunately, it's just a matter of finding a camera that matches most of your needs. 

To bring this back to the R7, that's part of the reason I am complimentary about this camera even though it isn't perfect. Assuming the overheating isn't an issue, the R7 is a really good option for a lot of people like me that shoot events. And it's competitively priced. An event shooter could buy 3 of these and have a really strong multicam set up for under $4,000. That could be a huge deal.

I was leaning towards leaving Panasonic because I have concerns about its long term viability if it doesn't improve the AF and eliminate that stigma. To me, the long term viability of a company matters when investing in equipment. I don't want to sink money into a camera system that could be gone in 5 years, leaving me SOL if I need customer support, etc. Getting such a good deal on the Lumix S5 though got me to stay, at least for now. Things could change in a few years, but until then I'll keep getting the most that I can put of these cameras. 

[MrSMW]

5 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I was leaning towards leaving Panasonic because I have concerns about its long term viability if it doesn't improve the AF and eliminate that stigma. To me, the long term viability of a company matters when investing in equipment. I don't want to sink money into a camera system that could be gone in 5 years, leaving me SOL if I need customer support, etc. Getting such a good deal on the Lumix S5 though got me to stay, at least for now. Things could change in a few years, but until then I'll keep getting the most that I can put of these cameras. 

That's pretty much the sum of it for me.

I was maybe a little hasty moving to L Mount from Fuji and if Covid had not happened and things had been as they should have been, I probably would not and have soldiered on with Fuji. Almost 99% sure that would have been the case as I had sold off almost all of my kit and had a pre-order in for a pair of XH4's and a couple of new lenses.

But Covid did happen and I did switch to an L Mount system and I am happy with it, - especially the output I get from it.

However, it's a concern as a business user, - the stability and longevity of their camera division.

I made a decision recently I would wait until the end of my season, so early Oct, this year.

Then if a Series 2 S line is on it's way either with phase or a proven excellent tracking DFD AF system, I shall probably stick with L Mount but have some kind of reshuffle because although my 4 cam approach works, I'd rather switch to a 3 cam system and have all 3 cameras preferably identical.

The only system that actually meets my requirements is a Fuji XH2s based on. Or possibly r or whatever the next camera coming this Autumn is like, but essentially they now have the bodies and the lenses that work for me and 2.5 years ago, they kind of didn't.

Sony and Canon are both viable options but as much as I'd like Nikon to be, I don't think it is...but would have to check the latest spec etc, especially after firmware upgrades.

A 3x body R7 approach could be my next best option after Fuji...

But, I need to see what happens first with Lumix and Sigma body-wise towards the end of this year as that will be the deciding factor.

I feel I am 'almost there' with my current set up, but from a logistical POV more than anything, not quite...

[kye]

2 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I feel I am 'almost there' with my current set up

Nah, just as you get close you'll arbitrarily move the goal posts again to 6K or 8K or some other thing that makes very little difference except making you re-buy all your equipment again and be forced to choose between cameras that are severely stretched and limited in many ways.

.......just like everyone did when they went from 1080p to 4K, mostly for very little reason except to sell more TVs.

[MrSMW]

39 minutes ago, kye said:

Nah, just as you get close you'll arbitrarily move the goal posts again to 6K or 8K or some other thing that makes very little difference except making you re-buy all your equipment again and be forced to choose between cameras that are severely stretched and limited in many ways.

Nope. But I appreciate you knowing my mind better than I do myself Kye 🤨

[herein2020]

23 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Also, any suggestions for SD cards? What type do you think I will need?

I swear by these cards.  Sorry to wander off topic again 🤣, but my C70 can shoot up to 4K30FPS Cinema Raw LT which has sustained data rates of 250Mb/s; far above the V30 rating. These cards are in my R5, C70, and the micro versions of it are in my drones and GoPros.....I've never had a single problem with any camera and any of these cards.

 

On 6/25/2022 at 5:44 AM, kye said:

Not at all.  Their AF will ruin your life.  Not a single Panasonic camera has ever created a single frame where a single item was in focus.  Not even if you filmed in a forrest - it would pick a focus distance where no single trunk, branch, twig or leaf was in focus.  It's so bad that it's probably the cause of global warming and religious extremism!

I think the problem is like @webrunner5 stated.....there are too many situations that a typical shooter will run into where it is not useable. Yes, the YT reviewers of the world focus on these shortcomings and shout it from the mountaintops, but that does not mean it is not a legitimate problem. Those same YouTubbers did the same thing when the R5 and R6 overheating fiasco first came to light; and overheating with the R5/R6 is another legitimate problem.

IMO if you are buying a Panasonic camera for important work, you are buying it because of their excellent video features and tools, but with the understanding that you will need to use MF. 

If Canon had an R7 at the time when I was purchasing the GH5 or S5, I would have never even owned a Panasonic. In 2022 as much as I got used to MF, AF is just too useful and too "freeing" allowing you to focus on so many other things that I would never want to go back to having to MF every shot. Yes some of my problems were my own doing....I didn't trust the L mount "alliance" and stuck with Canon glass, but their native lenses convinced me I was doing the right thing since even with native glass the AF was simply too unreliable.

I think in certain situations Panasonic cameras would be perfect.....product shoots, talking heads (as long as you have enough light for a deep enough DOF like in a studio setting), if you have a dedicated focus puller, outdoors static tripod shots, etc.. But the list of situations where it is unusable is much longer than that list; in 2022 with the plethora of offerings from Canon and Sony why get a camera that is so limiting in such a critical area? Even Nikon has a better AF system than Panasonic. Lets not even mention the L mount alliance and how few and expensive their native lenses are.

Even Canon's AF is far from perfect especially on the C70. I flip to MF all the time when I feel I can't trust the camera to pick the right subject, mainly because I don't trust the face tracking just yet and right when I start to trust it, it lets me down at a bad time.....but those times I really need AF, like when I'm on a gimbal or the subject is approaching or departing quickly; it works perfectly every time.

So back on topic 🙂, Dan Watson is another reviewer who I like to watch, and he happens to have an early hands on review of the R7. Once again, it is surprising how much of a quality hit the R7 takes when switching to pixel binning for 60FPS. I usually don't care about such things and leave them to the pixel peepers, but with the R7 it is very noticeable.

 

 

[Kisaha]

20 hours ago, ntblowz said:

Your 18-135 have the better motor indeed with nano USM so paired with ND adapter will be very useful for video, I probably gonna use 18-35 1.8 for video work and the 18-150 for travel. I got m6 ii with 18-150 which i plan to sell once I got the r7 with 18-150. R5 with 24-240 is just a tad big/heavy for casual outting/trips for me.

R7 with IPB lite you can get away with v30 cards on 4k60p, just photos will be slower if shooting burst on uhs-1 cards. On normal IPB you do need v60 or more or camera will stop recording due to slow speed.

I have the breakthrough X4 VND drop in filter which is a lot better than Canon one with no blue colour shift between min to max ND level, that is really nice with 1.4 lens in bright daylight. ( I have to stop down with canon VND or unless you shoot day for night scene lol)

Both the 35mm and 85mm's focus speed is not as good as their EF counterpart due to their "macro" feature, but image quality is not bad. I used to have them but only have the RF 16 and 50mm left for much lighter setup. RF 16 will be nice on R7 as it becomes 25mm.  I m waiting for the RF 24mm 1.8 which is more useful for me focal length wise (becomes 38mm on R7), you can also go for the 24mm ef-s pancake for a more casual setup.

Excellent suggestions..as the Breakthrough (sadly) are not officially available in Europe I can't purchase them, and there are taxes and cystom charges. Plus, I won't be able to put them as expanses on my business.

I ordered the Meike one, plus a Black Pro Mist 1/8 filter they have. Seemed like a good idea..also a Sony E v60 card.

I probably get the 16mm RF then, as it is my favourite focal length (24mm equiv), and will cover lengths I do not already own (except some Samyangs I already own, but they are too big for casual photography/videography). The 32mm with the added IS and "macro" capabilities is tempting though..it is only 100€ more here..

My next purchase will be probably a Metabones kind of adapter, but only if there is a cheap alternative (Viltrox?).

I will go to pre order next week.

Still kind of enthusiastic after so many years without a Canon body. I was so critic of the brand, but only because it was my first love (AE-1, anyone?!). Still got a series of FD by the way..

[newfoundmass]

4 hours ago, kye said:

Nah, just as you get close you'll arbitrarily move the goal posts again to 6K or 8K or some other thing that makes very little difference except making you re-buy all your equipment again and be forced to choose between cameras that are severely stretched and limited in many ways.

.......just like everyone did when they went from 1080p to 4K, mostly for very little reason except to sell more TVs.

I get your frustration, and understand your bigger point, but @MrSMWcomes on these forums and is one of its best posters because he shares his actual experiences in depth. I don't think he's ever been mean or condescending to anyone. Maybe try being a little more polite to people like him that come on here and share their experiences? 

[Django]

10 hours ago, MrSMW said:

The only system that actually meets my requirements is a Fuji XH2s based on. Or possibly r or whatever the next camera coming this Autumn is like, but essentially they now have the bodies and the lenses that work for me and 2.5 years ago, they kind of didn't.

Sony and Canon are both viable options but as much as I'd like Nikon to be, I don't think it is...but would have to check the latest spec etc, especially after firmware upgrades.

A 3x body R7 approach could be my next best option after Fuji...

We often tend to obsess over camera bodies but it is indeed the native lens selection that makes/breaks a system for me. 

And hence I can't really recommend R7 at this point. It has only 3 RF-S lenses atm. Meaning you're going to have to adapt either FF EF or EF-S. Meh. 

On the other hand Fuji released its most accomplished hybrid and has a plethora of excellent lenses, including new generation primes and that parafocal motorized 18-120mm F4. AF on XH2S seems to finally be on point with a very sticky face eye detection. Plus of course the Fuji IQ and the film simulations for SOOC goodness.

I'm also tied into not one but two other systems (Sony & Canon) and what I like about them is they have pro cine lines (I like having mirrorless + cine cam) and both FF/S35 but I'm finding it very hard to resist going back to Fuji with the XH2S and a couple primes  (18mm F1.4, 33mm 1.4, 56mm F1.2) and the new 18-120mm. Can't wait to test that camera out.

[kye]

8 hours ago, herein2020 said:

Yes, the YT reviewers of the world focus on these shortcomings and shout it from the mountaintops

Actually I was talking specifically about this forum.  For example, here we are in a Canon thread and there are now three people who will simply not let a mention of Panasonic occur without criticising the AF.  You already explained your opinion, and yet you replied again with many more paragraphs of criticism.

If I kept replying, would this conversation last forever?  Does the last word in every thread have to be a criticism?  This perpetual negativity is the "shouting from the mountaintops".

[herein2020]

4 hours ago, Django said:

We often tend to obsess over camera bodies but it is indeed the native lens selection that makes/breaks a system for me. 

And hence I can't really recommend R7 at this point. It has only 3 RF-S lenses atm. Meaning you're going to have to adapt either FF EF or EF-S. Meh. 

I agree, the lens situation with the R7 could be considered a weakness. But since Canon does provide adapters vs having to go with a 3rd party I don't think its as bad as it could be.  You also have the option of using native RF glass, but that would get expensive fast and there would be the crop to have to deal with.  If I were to get the R7 I would probably shoot with my 24mm F2.8 to compensate for the crop or maybe my Canon EF 16-35 F4.0 would suddenly become useful for more than real estate.

If somehow the Canon C70's speedbooster works on the R7 that would be a bit of a game changer, albeit an expensive game changer but still, to have all of the R7's capabilities in a FF FOV and gain a stop of light would make it almost the perfect camera with the sole drawback being you are now stuck in the past with EF glass. 

Now for people without tons of EF glass laying around...the R7 could definitely be a harder sell.

 

4 hours ago, Django said:

On the other hand Fuji released its most accomplished hybrid and has a plethora of excellent lenses, including new generation primes and that parafocal motorized 18-120mm F4. AF on XH2S seems to finally be on point with a very sticky face eye detection. Plus of course the Fuji IQ and the film simulations for SOOC goodness.

I'm also tied into not one but two other systems (Sony & Canon) and what I like about them is they have pro cine lines (I like having mirrorless + cine cam) and both FF/S35 but I'm finding it very hard to resist going back to Fuji with the XH2S and a couple primes  (18mm F1.4, 33mm 1.4, 56mm F1.2) and the new 18-120mm. Can't wait to test that camera out.

That sounds like a pretty expensive proposition as well....switching to Fuji. Three different systems (menus, lenses, possibly even flashes), does not sound like something I would want to deal with.

[webrunner5]

Trouble is with Fuji glass it only works on a Fuji. It is a tempting system but an expensive experiment no doubt.

[newfoundmass]

Assuming there's not too much of a difference between adapted EF and native RF lenses, I'd probably end up using adapted lenses anyway on the R7, so I don't think it's a huge deal that the lens selection is limited right now. I'd maybe even get full frame lenses anyway, mostly primes, in the event I upgraded to a full frame camera in the future. 

I imagine the Sigma 18-35mm will be a popular lens on the R7, for example. 

[newfoundmass]

21 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Trouble is with Fuji glass it only works on a Fuji. It is a tempting system but an expensive experiment no doubt.

A lot of the older Fuji lenses aren't great for video. That's always been a negative when considering them. As they update their line up and make their lenses more video friendly that will definitely change. But it's really distracting when you see the stepping when switching apertures and even focusing. 

[MrSMW]

6 hours ago, Django said:

the XH2S and a couple primes  (18mm F1.4, 33mm 1.4, 56mm F1.2) and the new 18-120mm.

For me it would be just the 18 and the 56 plus the new (for Fuji) 17-70mm f2.8 paired with 3 bodies. Not the current version of the 56. It’s great for stills but not so hot for video…but a new version is coming.

I’d like to see that matched against an equivalent R7 set up because they could be strong competitors?

Not that I am seriously considering either as I am not in any position to change system and as mentioned various times, not seriously looking to change any time soon/this year (and a next gen L Mount based system would be my first choice) but instead, simply maintaining an interest in any and all options mostly on a hypothetical basis.

The ‘struggle’ I have right now is as a solo operator, managing a 4 cam set up (for ceremony and speeches at weddings) though roll with just 2 hybrid units (handheld) the rest of the day other than tracking sequences where I use 3 with that third on a tripod.

I could get to 3 units easily with the kit I have by simply dumping one of my S1R’s and using a single zoom instead of pairing each with a prime…but I really hate using zooms for anything that isn’t static on a tripod.

”Get over it” some might say but actually enjoyment of the craft plays a big part and after 20 years in the business, I still don’t like zooms any more than when I started.

The appeal of something like an XH2 or R7 (or next gen L Mount or any other system) set up for me would be a switch to an identical 3 body system which is an extremely high priority for me when the time comes to change, which it will at some point.

Right now I’m juggling:

2x hybrid S1R’s with their own unique ergos shooting 4K 30p, no VND and just shooting higher than 60fps when needed to control the exposure.

1x S1H with a cine prime with VND between body and lens shooting 4K 24p at 180 degrees. Different set up, ergos, weight…everything, even the position of the on/off switch all of which add up to a loss of workflow and speed. Having to think too much on a technical level…

1x S5 with zoom and lens VND shooting 4K 60p. Different again and have to manage things like a 30 min recording time and weaker battery life. Slows me down…

On a 24p timeline at respectively, 80%, 100% and 40%.

It works, but it’s a bit of a ‘Frankenrig’ approach that’s been built up over this season for the best end result.

The compromise has been the operation.

That is the bit I ‘need’ to change next time, so no (Kye), not interested in 6k, 8k or 64k. Not interested in change for any other reason than purely the mechanics and flow from a creative perspective, ie, the tools are getting a little bit in the way as things stand. 

I am warming to Canon for the first time however…

Never been much interested in anything Canon before and other than some compact a decade or so back, never had one.

The R7 is not perfect. I’d need to explore the video options more and flip out screen, aaaaargh, hate the things…but then the XH2 is also cursed with one so…

Anyway, rambled enough, so I’ll shut up.

 

 

[IronFilm]

On 6/26/2022 at 5:42 PM, newfoundmass said:

I was leaning towards leaving Panasonic because I have concerns about its long term viability if it doesn't improve the AF and eliminate that stigma. To me, the long term viability of a company matters when investing in equipment.

Unfortunately that can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

[kye]

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Unfortunately that can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

My point exactly.

[Avenger 2.0]

Indeed, you can forget any continues autofocus for video in challenging conditions (low light, backlit, etc).
The main reason I'm not investing into the GH6 or S1/S5 at the moment. Already enough MFT glass that might become worthless if Panasonic doesn't get their AF shit together in the next camera releases.

With the upcoming R7 now, they may loose whatever advantage they still had.