Canon EOS R7 and R10 have released...

[mercer]

With that said, I understand that this is a business for some people and other factors come into play. Which is why I've often said that some people would be better off with a camcorder, or the latest Canon DSLR/DSLM... they're money making, workhorses.

[Django]

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

I mean, autofocus doesn't really matter if a camera can't be used due to overheating. I think these are decent offerings, but you don't have to be too positive or too negative, it's okay to be neutral and take a wait and see approach.

..and no overheat doesn't matter much either if all your footage is OOF. so yeah ying-yang.

from the testing so far R7 seems to manage all the way up to 2 hours in 4Kfine making overheating a non issue.

of course we'll have to wait for more real world tests but so far it seems promising on that end.

 

 

[newfoundmass]

1 hour ago, Django said:

..and no overheat doesn't matter much either if all your footage is OOF. so yeah ying-yang.

You can still operate a camera without autofocus. You can't operate a Canon camera if it's overheating. They aren't remotely similar.

 

1 hour ago, Django said:

from the testing so far R7 seems to manage all the way up to 2 hours in 4Kfine making overheating a non issue.

No one has had the camera long enough to do any real stress tests, re: overheating. Dan Watson said it's about 50 minutes. Virtually every other video has said the same, outside of Gordon Laing who did a test indoors under controlled conditions. Even Canon said it will last about an hour in 4K fine mode. 🤷‍♂️

[kye]

10 hours ago, Django said:

Correct, the crop only applies to the 1:1 readout 4K60p mode.

Of course it isn't end of the world. You should know by now people here just love to sh!t on Canon and focus on every little shortcoming.

This isn't a bad offering for their first gen APS-C RF models.

R7 destroys any Sony A6xxx cam both in specs and ergonomics.

The specs are actually very close to XT4 but with a 7K oversampled mode (and it beats it on stills side & AF).

 

As a GH5 user, I find the whole crop thing to be a highly bizarre topic that makes basically zero sense.  When I hear everyone being all apologist about it, I just think you all have Stockholm Syndrome.

When I look at my 17.5mm lens, I know it has a 35mm FF FOV.  It has that FOV in 24p, 60p, 120p, in 4K, in 1080p, in 5K, in 3.3k, on Wednesday AND Fridays, when the Moon is in Aquarius and Pisces, and with absolutely no reliance on who has the majority of government in the lower chamber of whatever-the-f*ck-country I'm in.

The GH5 does have crop modes though - they're FEATURES, not obstacles in a minefield that is different on every camera.  The S35 and S16 crops are actually extremely useful on a mirrorless camera because of the lens choices that they open up.  S16 especially as there are so few cameras that effectively do it.  The GH5, which seems to be copping some heat here, does S16 in native 4K.  I agree that it might not have a great feel, but it also doesn't get emotional and irrational and create random issues that will ruin your shoot 🙂 

7 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

I must insist the S16 joke is from me. But even funnier my splendid comparison of lineskipped 4k with the perfect HD from the GH5.😊 @mercer

Canon R7 and R10 compete with a Panasonic GH5 or G9, both on the used market for 600 EUR, both with class leading battery life and stabilization, best ergonomics and sturdyness, perfect HD, 4k above 30p is 8bit though. But since 1080 60p might look as good as 4k60 on the Canons..😆

Buuut if HD up to 60p is good quality and if the image has the dynamic range, organic gentleness, colour quality and grading potential of the C300MKII, without the mushyness and noise reduction in low light, then we have two great image takers here.

If you insist!

You said it first, but I did the math and thought of it before I read your comment 🙂 

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

You can still operate a camera without autofocus. You can't operate a Canon camera if it's overheating. They aren't remotely similar.

No one has had the camera long enough to do any real stress tests, re: overheating. Dan Watson said it's about 50 minutes. Virtually every other video has said the same, outside of Gordon Laing who did a test indoors under controlled conditions. Even Canon said it will last about an hour in 4K fine mode. 🤷‍♂️

I wouldn't believe anyone until you see a time-lapse shot of the camera in a temperature-controlled cabinet with a thermometer and a clock, where they keep replacing the battery and memory card until it overheats or they get bored.

It's not that I don't think Canon can make a camera that manages heat, it's that we've seen we can't trust them not to lie to us about it.

[Django]

22 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

You can still operate a camera without autofocus. You can't operate a Canon camera if it's overheating. They aren't remotely similar.

 

Not if you're on gimbal, Vlogging or certain run & gun situations. I literally just watched a video from a pretty popular solo YouTuber at a music trade show in Berlin where the entire footage was ruined because of constant wild hunting. What do you know, it was shot on a GH5. Sure you can claim its user fault but there is no denying that Panasonics DFD AF is a major setback when compared to the competition. And like it or not, strong AF is crucial for some types of shooters. 

The AF reliability I get from Canon, wether in stills with eye-tracking shooting wide open at F1.2 or in video with DPAF tracking is outstanding. When I have to go back to contrast-only AF on my FS7 it feels like I'm getting punished, constantly punching in to check focus. Stressing I may have missed shots. DPAF is so liberating, you won't realise it until you get used to it. I know that a lot of M43 shooters use manual glass so this doesn't concern you, but it does to others.

22 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

No one has had the camera long enough to do any real stress tests, re: overheating. Dan Watson said it's about 50 minutes. Virtually every other video has said the same, outside of Gordon Laing who did a test indoors under controlled conditions. Even Canon said it will last about an hour in 4K fine mode. 🤷‍♂️

I was just reporting Gordons testings, since he's the only one that actually performed one. All I stated was that they were pretty promising, even if indoors under controlled conditions. I also added:

Quote

of course we'll have to wait for more real world tests

Sorry but I'm not sure what you are arguing against? 

[Django]

21 hours ago, kye said:

As a GH5 user, I find the whole crop thing to be a highly bizarre topic that makes basically zero sense.  When I hear everyone being all apologist about it, I just think you all have Stockholm Syndrome.

When I look at my 17.5mm lens, I know it has a 35mm FF FOV.  It has that FOV in 24p, 60p, 120p, in 4K, in 1080p, in 5K, in 3.3k, on Wednesday AND Fridays, when the Moon is in Aquarius and Pisces, and with absolutely no reliance on who has the majority of government in the lower chamber of whatever-the-f*ck-country I'm in.

The GH5 does have crop modes though - they're FEATURES, not obstacles in a minefield that is different on every camera.  The S35 and S16 crops are actually extremely useful on a mirrorless camera because of the lens choices that they open up.  S16 especially as there are so few cameras that effectively do it.  The GH5, which seems to be copping some heat here, does S16 in native 4K.

Agreed, crop modes can be useful. R5C does S35 in 6K & S16 in 4.6K. RAW.

Quote

  I agree that it might not have a great feel, but it also doesn't get emotional and irrational and create random issues that will ruin your shoot 🙂 

Well again, unless you rely heavily on AF! 😉

[newfoundmass]

27 minutes ago, Django said:

Not if you're on gimbal, Vlogging or certain run & gun situations. I literally just watched a video from a pretty popular solo YouTuber at a music trade show in Berlin where the entire footage was ruined because of constant wild hunting. What do you know, it was shot on a GH5. Sure you can claim its user fault but there is no denying that Panasonics DFD AF is a major setback when compared to the competition. And like it or not, strong AF is crucial for some types of shooters. 

You absolutely can use manual focus in all of those situations. I do all the time. 

And no one is arguing that Panasonic AF is behind everyone else. But a camera that overheats and is unusable is a far bigger issue than a camera that lacks PDAF. That's just a fact. One can still be used, while the other cannot. 

With that said, Panasonic AF is usable once you learn it's weaknesses and how to adapt. Single point AF is pretty reliable in real world use, to the point where I use it while filming pro-wrestling and that's pretty unpredictable. The only time it really struggles is in low light during ring entrances, but I combat that using a LED. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Django]

35 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

You absolutely can use manual focus in all of those situations. I do all the time. 

And no one is arguing that Panasonic AF is behind everyone else. But a camera that overheats and is unusable is a far bigger issue than a camera that lacks PDAF. That's just a fact. One can still be used, while the other cannot. 

With that said, Panasonic AF is usable once you learn it's weaknesses and how to adapt. Single point AF is pretty reliable in real world use, to the point where I use it while filming pro-wrestling and that's pretty unpredictable. The only time it really struggles is in low light during ring entrances, but I combat that using a LED. 🤷🏻‍♂️

I knew MF was going to be your answer lol. Closing the iris is also another good workaround.

I'm afraid this type of apologetic mentality is what results in Panny never improving the AF.

Your loss though what can I say? 🤷‍♂️

And no one is arguing that overheating isn't a real issue. I'm just saying the time limit from the only real test is encouraging. Wait and see before crying wolf..

[newfoundmass]

45 minutes ago, Django said:

I knew MF was going to be your answer lol. Closing the iris is also another good workaround.

I'm afraid this type of apologetic mentality is what results in Panny never improving the AF.

Hyperbole much? I've literally stated for years at this point that Panasonic needs to fix its autofocus because it's what the market demands. Acknowledging its weakness, while expressing how the autofocus performance is overblown by YouTubers that don't spend enough time to get the best out of the camera, isn't being apologetic. It's sharing my experience as someone who uses these cameras for a variety of types of professional work, from sit down interviews to pro-wrestling.

Who has a more valid opinion of Panasonic's autofocus? The person that filmed these clips or the people that tested the camera while bopping in and out of frame while it sat on a tripod?

 

Are these shots unusable? Am I wrong to be satisfied with this AF performance? People just parrot what YouTubers say. How are these shots even possible given how AWFUL and UNUSABLE Panasonic's autofocus is?

[Django]

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

Who has a more valid opinion of Panasonic's autofocus? The person that filmed these clips or the people that tested the camera while bopping in and out of frame while it sat on a tripod?

I'm genuinely happy you are so satisfied with GH5's AF performance. If I were picky though I'd say those scenes aren't too challenging AF-wise with wide shots at that distance and with such wide DoF. Try that on a bigger sensor close range under F2.

There are tons of other scenarios then talking heads on a tripod. Here is the GH5 clip from the YouTuber I was referencing. It's basically unwatchable and the AF just can't seem to lock on face:

I'm sure you'll be quick to claim user error but that's just piss poor AF performance imo. I read he's switching to Fuji..

[IronFilm]

8 hours ago, Django said:

Not if you're on gimbal

We were shooting this week on an ARRI Mini on a gimbal. 

Last time I checked.... the ARRI Mini doesn't have autofocus. 

 

5 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Hyperbole much? I've literally stated for years at this point that Panasonic needs to fix its autofocus because it's what the market demands. Acknowledging its weakness, while expressing how the autofocus performance is overblown by YouTubers that don't spend enough time to get the best out of the camera, isn't being apologetic. It's sharing my experience as someone who uses these cameras for a variety of types of professional work, from sit down interviews to pro-wrestling.

Who has a more valid opinion of Panasonic's autofocus? The person that filmed these clips or the people that tested the camera while bopping in and out of frame while it sat on a tripod?

I think too many people think because Panasonic's DFD AF is second best to the competition's PDAF that mean it must be "bad". 

Panasonic's autofocus is still pretty darn good, and people would've killed to have had that level of autofocus performance a couple of decades ago.

[kye]

9 hours ago, Django said:

Not if you're on gimbal, Vlogging or certain run & gun situations. I literally just watched a video from a pretty popular solo YouTuber at a music trade show in Berlin where the entire footage was ruined because of constant wild hunting. What do you know, it was shot on a GH5. Sure you can claim its user fault but there is no denying that Panasonics DFD AF is a major setback when compared to the competition. And like it or not, strong AF is crucial for some types of shooters. 

The AF reliability I get from Canon, wether in stills with eye-tracking shooting wide open at F1.2 or in video with DPAF tracking is outstanding. When I have to go back to contrast-only AF on my FS7 it feels like I'm getting punished, constantly punching in to check focus. Stressing I may have missed shots. DPAF is so liberating, you won't realise it until you get used to it. I know that a lot of M43 shooters use manual glass so this doesn't concern you, but it does to others.

I was just reporting Gordons testings, since he's the only one that actually performed one. All I stated was that they were pretty promising, even if indoors under controlled conditions. I also added:

Sorry but I'm not sure what you are arguing against? 

Actually, something that apparently used to happen quite a lot but was kind of hidden by you tubers was that they used the Sony FF cameras in manual focus mode when vlogging because they didn't have flippy screens and couldn't be sure that the AF was getting them in focus.  

I saw it mentioned once in a video by Matti Haapoja and he laughed and said that everyone does it but doesn't talk about it and then had a passing dig at Sony about flippy screens.  IIRC it was when the A7s2 was the best Sony camera that all the YT vloggers who jump brands all the time were using.  

The technique was that you held your arm straight out and bent your fingers up, held your camera at your chest and manually focused on your fingers.  He showed it in the video.

In terms of poor AF ruining video - yes it absolutely does.  This "AF is necessary" sentiment is what is making people use AF when they shouldn't.  Your comments about "Panasonic needs to give users AF" just makes me think that you don't know when to use the right mode for the job.  I mean, AF is useful, but it's not the end of the world like the AF zealots make it out to be.

8 hours ago, Django said:

Agreed, crop modes can be useful. R5C does S35 in 6K & S16 in 4.6K. RAW.

The fact they can be useful doesn't mean they're not a complete PITA when they're compulsory when not wanted.

It's like if a piece of kitchen equipment put strawberry sauce into everything it made, someone complaining about it, and then the rebuttal being that strawberry sauce can be useful.  Sure, but get it out of my pizza dough!

52 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

We were shooting this week on an ARRI Mini on a gimbal. 

Last time I checked.... the ARRI Mini doesn't have autofocus. 

At this point it's like people are trying to cancel Panasonic because they're not skilled enough to work around a particular  limitation that Panasonic has.  I understand that it's a bit of a significant limitation, but cameras are chock full of limitations that we all have to work around all the time.  It's like people have developed a fetish about it or something.

[ade towell]

10 hours ago, Django said:

I'm afraid this type of apologetic mentality is what results in Panny never improving the AF.

I'd say it's the type of Canon apologists that I read on this thread and all over the internet that allow them to get away with this crappy kind of crippling because despite al the gotchas they know that people will keep buying their cameras in droves.

I'm a Canon user (damn you Canon for your great lens legacy), but will call them out whenever they're low balling their customers - there is no excuse for the ridiculous crop on 4k 50p on a new camera in 2022. The jury is still out on overheating but the signs aren't great, they've seen what they can get away with in the 'best selling' R5 and R6. Saying it's better than Sony's ancient half arsed A6xxx series is hardly praise worthy

The 7d was Canon's flagship crop dslr camera, the 7R seems like a toy in comparison. I hope they are going to bring out a properly weather sealed mirrorless crop camera with decent video specs, cause this isn't it. This is Canon dropping the quality - a worrying sign

[IronFilm]

3 hours ago, kye said:

At this point it's like people are trying to cancel Panasonic because they're not skilled enough to work around a particular  limitation that Panasonic has.  I understand that it's a bit of a significant limitation, but cameras are chock full of limitations that we all have to work around all the time.  It's like people have developed a fetish about it or something.

It is because if people admit autofocus is not that important for some folks/uses, then they'll be forced to admit that Panasonic would then be their #1 choice. And Panasonic has been so the #1 leader for years and years. 

[Avenger 2.0]

55 minutes ago, ade towell said:

The 7d was Canon's flagship crop dslr camera, the 7R seems like a toy in comparison. I hope they are going to bring out a properly weather sealed mirrorless crop camera with decent video specs, cause this isn't it. This is Canon dropping the quality - a worrying sign

Indeed, if you compare the 7DII build quality against the R7, it looks (and probably feels) like a toy. 
Wonder if it will even will survive though use like the 7DII did. I'm afraid this is the best we will see from Canon (in crop body anyway). Feel the same about the 5D series. While the R5 / R6 are specs wise a serious upgrade, these cameras will not survive the though conditions and 'misuse' people put their DSLR counterparts through.

[newfoundmass]

10 hours ago, Django said:

There are tons of other scenarios then talking heads on a tripod. Here is the GH5 clip from the YouTuber I was referencing. It's basically unwatchable and the AF just can't seem to lock on face:

I'm sure you'll be quick to claim user error but that's just piss poor AF performance imo. I read he's switching to Fuji..

Of course a big part of it is user error! I only watched a minute or so, but there's a lot of issues with that video. Frankly even with excellent AF that would've been a mess. If he knew how to use his camera and put in even the minimal amount of effort he very easily could've gotten better results. Shockingly holding a camera with one hand and putting zero effort into his shots produced poor results. I'm glad that there's cameras out there that would've done better at keeping him in focus, but I hate that it encourages such laziness. 

 

10 hours ago, Django said:

I'm genuinely happy you are so satisfied with GH5's AF performance. If I were picky though I'd say those scenes aren't too challenging AF-wise with wide shots at that distance and with such wide DoF. Try that on a bigger sensor close range under F2.

I wish you could see how hard I rolled my eyes at this. Lol. People flinging themselves through the air while having split seconds to move and frame the shot isn't challenging enough! "Try it with a bigger sensor while filming under f/2" he says, which is a weird thing to be saying while criticizing the GH5. It's okay to concede a point and say "you know, you're right, the autofocus did a good job there." Better to do that than to tell me to film sports with a bigger sensor and under f/2, which is exactly what you'd want to do while filming action sports! 🙄 

You wanna know what's funny? I'm one of the few people who actually said these were solid releases from Canon, and somehow you chose me to argue with! 🤣

[Django]

7 hours ago, IronFilm said:

We were shooting this week on an ARRI Mini on a gimbal. 

Last time I checked.... the ARRI Mini doesn't have autofocus. 

This one is my favourite, as it always gets a mention when discussing poor AF.

Right, let's compare a solo operated MILC with an ARRI on a gimbal.. with dedicated focus puller.

6 hours ago, kye said:

In terms of poor AF ruining video - yes it absolutely does.  This "AF is necessary" sentiment is what is making people use AF when they shouldn't.  Your comments about "Panasonic needs to give users AF" just makes me think that you don't know when to use the right mode for the job.  I mean, AF is useful, but it's not the end of the world like the AF zealots make it out to be.

And your comment clearly makes me thing you've never experienced latest gen video AF. 

FYI I learned to focus with MF. Still use MF on my Leica glass. I hire focus pullers whenever I can.

I have contrast based AF on my FS7 which is my daily workhorse. I know how to adapt to it.

None of those negate the fact AF has made substantial progress and can be a reliable asset.

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

Shockingly holding a camera with one hand and putting zero effort into his shots produced poor results. I'm glad that there's cameras out there that would've done better at keeping him in focus, but I hate that it encourages such laziness. 

When shooting Vlog style with your own face in the frame, you're usually going to shoot one handed with some kind of Gorillapod arm or something. You may despise these types of shooters but its a valid community and one of the reasons why most video centric cameras have face detection and such..

 

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

I wish you could see how hard I rolled my eyes at this. Lol. People flinging themselves through the air while having split seconds to move and frame the shot isn't challenging enough! "Try it with a bigger sensor while filming under f/2" he says, which is a weird thing to be saying while criticizing the GH5. It's okay to concede a point and say "you know, you're right, the autofocus did a good job there." Better to do that than to tell me to film sports with a bigger sensor and under f/2, which is exactly what you'd want to do while filming action sports! 🙄 

You are so focused on yourself (pun intended) you missed the point I was making. I'm not telling you what to do with your action shoots. I'm telling you there are other scenarios, such as closer shots on bigger sensors with faster glass, where critical AF is required.

2 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

You wanna know what's funny? I'm one of the few people who actually said these were solid releases from Canon, and somehow you chose me to argue with! 🤣

Oh cmon you're the one that started plugging your GH5 and your camera footage in a Canon thread. 

It's systematic here. You won't find me rambling off about DPAF benefits in Panasonic threads.

Could we maybe get back on topic?

[hyalinejim]

This is not exactly back on topic but semi-related I guess. When sorting by new for R7 videos on YouTube I keep seeing a bunch of what I guess are fake comparison videos featuring slightly differently processed stills purportedly from two different cameras. There are a few accounts that do this, using the same template, and views have been racking up over the last few days. Is this a thing now? It looks like AI or bot created content.

[Kubrickian]

If I keep arguing about camera specs, I'll never have to create something memorable 

 

[IronFilm]

17 hours ago, Django said:

This one is my favourite, as it always gets a mention when discussing poor AF.

Right, let's compare a solo operated MILC with an ARRI on a gimbal.. with dedicated focus puller.

It is a little unusual for me to work on a film without a 1st AC who doesn't have a wireless focus system. 

As they've been so cheap, that even "no budget" indie/student film sets have in recent years started to almost always be using wireless focus now. (at least the ones I'm on)

But even in the days before cheap wireless follow focus systems, and even before gimbals were common, it would still be doable for the steadicam op on low/no budget shoots to work with a manual focus lens without a 1st AC pulling focus. They'd just prefocus and then take care to always keep the same distance between themselves and the focus. 

Quote

 

I have contrast based AF on my FS7 which is my daily workhorse. I know how to adapt to it.

That's kinda the point, the latest Panasonic MFT (or L Mount cameras) have autofocus which puts the Sony FS7 to shame! 

  

17 hours ago, Django said:

It's systematic here. You won't find me rambling off about DPAF benefits in Panasonic threads.

Eh, is pretty much the common norm for all discussions about a new Panasonic release to have a "but their autofocus..." and about how much better DPAF is

(not saying you do it! But you'd agree it is a common tangent found on Panasonic discussions)