Canon EOS R7 and R10 have released...

[ade towell]

I have read good things about the Meike nd adaptor and looks much better value than the Canon version. I have the plain Meike ef to rf adaptor and it has worked flawlessly since I got it about a year and a half ago

CVP seem pretty positive about it

 

 

[Django]

@MrSMW Looks like you've figured how to make the system work for you. For me shooting video at plus F8 is not a compromise that would work, especially under lowlight conditions. I shoot fast primes only so things like continuous eye-AF and tap to track are a god send when shooting wide open. But hey that's not to dog on other systems, we managed for years before DPAF and I still love shooting manual on Leica M. I just know that in a fast paced, unpredictable and exhausting +15 hour setting such as a wedding, I'd like the most flexible robust system there is but that's just me. I'm not a pro wedding shooter, only done it a handful of times and found it again rather stressing and exhausting, albeit very rewarding once you get through it!

@Kisaha Yes I truly believe Canon are back with a very solid camera lineup. Within your budget may I also suggest taking a look at the new XH2S. It has excellent video features (6K open-gate, ProRes internal, IBIS, eye-AF, great DR & low RS) and excellent thermal management with an external fan option for extreme heat conditions such as yours.

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, Django said:

For me shooting video at plus F8 is not a compromise that would work, especially under lowlight conditions.

Only works for me because it’s 95% outdoor daylight use when I need it.

F4 indoors works mostly also and does outdoors, but I have just been using f8 recently to give it an even better chance.

I’d rather have something stickier of course and I expect the next gen will be.

[herein2020]

8 hours ago, Django said:

Well I'm quoting this from cined's RAW update lab test performed just last month:

"In XF-AVC Long GOP C-Log 2 (from 60-120 frames per second) the dual gain output is not active and we loose about 1 stop"

They proceed with full-on charts subbed: Waveform plot of the Xyla21 chart using frame rates > 60 fps with the C70 (C-Log 2)

Looks like it only applies to 60 above in Clog2. Maybe its using S&Q though which uses additional processing to slow down in cam?

I called Canon when people first started reporting no DGO at 60P and they said it is active at all framerates except 120FPS. They did not differentiate between CLOG2, XF-AVC, H.264 vs H.265 etc. I supposed I should call them again and ask specifically if the compression codec and LOG curve matters.

8 hours ago, Django said:

How does 8K affect IBIS? R5 has both. Also if 8K drains battery but you have no interest in 8K, just avoid shooting 8K and save battery. Problem solved. As for the editable codec, well R5C is the only non Cine cam that has XF-AVC. 

I understand no IBIS is the deal breaker for you, that said the irony to me is that you chose C70 in the end, a camera which also does not have IBIS !?

 

We were talking (or at least I was talking) about the R5C specifically and with the R5C the common working theory is that the only way they got it to not overheat even with a fan was to remove IBIS. The 8K affects IBIS because if it wasn't an 8K sensor they probably could have cooled it down properly without removing IBIS (hence the R7 and R3 both have IBIS and don't overheat).  

Not shooting in 8K doesn't save the battery or at least I don't think it saves it by much. You still have to power the fan, the full sensor, all of the faster circuitry required to process up to 8K, etc. Of course I would be curious to see some charts that say how long the R5C works for photos only or lower resolution videos. Most of the reviews I've seen said it only lasts 30min even when just shooting photos.

No IBIS was the deal breaker for me with the R5C because it had the other compromises to make it work as a hybrid and not overheat. With the C70; the Audio XLR inputs, and the internal ND filters made it worth the loss of IBIS. 

@Kisaha @Django @ade towell @ntblowz  8K, 10bit, 4:2:2, RAW, line skipping, ISO performance etc. etc. I will admit I sometimes just have to smile as I read about fellow videographers dismissing a camera in these price ranges due to lacking or gaining these features.  

Maybe I am a bit jaded, probably because my little corner of the industry is littered with mediocre footage and so my customer's expectations aren't much above mediocre as well, but IMO any camera released in the last 5yrs can create amazing footage. At the end of the day it is the content that matters and if the camera fits into your workflow and has features that helps vs hinders your creativity then that is the camera for you more so than paper specs.

I think it is safe to say that the plethora of cameras released in the sub $10K USD range are aimed at online/social media content creators and I am not ashamed to say that that is exactly where 90%+ of my content ends up. Once this footage is online it is most likely to be viewed on a tiny cell phone screen at 480P resolution. I say all of that to say that I think the R7 is probably going to be an incredible little camera that is more than good enough to shoot most of the online content that their owners choose to create.

Kim K could pose for 30 seconds in front of her cell phone propped up in the corner of her room and rack up 3M views in a few hrs. We could spend months planning a project, weeks shooting the project, and weeks more editing and posting the project and only get a few thumbs up. My point here is content is king; if you have content people want to see or you have a niche with a following the camera specs won't matter much. Feature length movies have been shot with GoPros (Hardcore Henry)  and iPhones (Unsane), imagine what those people could have done with the R7.

IMO our number one competitor isn't the person with 8K or no pixel binning, or no line skipping.....its the cell phone.

For me personally, if the R7 doesn't overheat, and I can find a way to work with the crop, then I think it would be a great B-Cam to the C70 for those times when the C70 is locked down on a tripod and I need some quick B-Roll or a second angle for an interview, etc. I live in a very hot state, so my #1 requirement above all else is no overheating.

[IronFilm]

10 hours ago, Django said:

Sounds intense dealing with 5/6 camera bodies but wedding shooting is an intense field (in a way the most stressful for me considering the expectations and chaos ratio). It's also beautiful, emotional etc.

I always found weddings less stressful than major budget film sets. But it is a different kind of stress, and I guess I'd done more years of wedding than major level films. Perhaps in a few more years I'll be more at ease. 

 

10 hours ago, Django said:

Here in Paris, I still see Canon used by the majority of wedding photogs (a lot are still on 5D/7D/1DX2/3 DSLRs).

Even the old Canon 5Dmk2 (let alone a much more capable camera such as the Nikon D750, which is still a very old camera itself!) is so capable I can understand if photographers are not necessarily upgrading (or perhaps only upgrading their main camera, but not their backup camera). As they're running a business and can't just waste money unnecessarily. Scott Choucino talks about this a lot in his youtube channel, I highly recommend subscribing:

 

 

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, herein2020 said:

Kim K could pose for 30 seconds in front of her cell phone propped up in the corner of her room and rack up 3M views in a few hrs. We could spend months planning a project, weeks shooting the project, and weeks more editing and posting the project and only get a few thumbs up. My point here is content is king; if you have content people want to see or you have a niche with a following the camera specs won't matter much. Feature length movies have been shot with GoPros (Hardcore Henry)  and iPhones (Unsane), imagine what those people could have done with the R7.

To be fair in those cases, then the camera was either (Unsane) a bit of a gimmick to help market the movie, or (Hardcore Henry) integral to the storytelling of the movie. (you could never have done Hardcore Henry with an ARRI! Although, if Hardcore Henry was re-shoot today in 2022, I would be curious as to how it might go with a Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera, Sigma FP, or a Z Cam E2-M4. None of those cameras where an option back when Hardcore Henry were filmed) 

If you're not one of those weird rare exceptions, when you shouldn't use a GoPro or iPhone to film your next feature film. 

But I agree with your general point: content is king. 

3 hours ago, herein2020 said:

@Kisaha @Django @ade towell @ntblowz  8K, 10bit, 4:2:2, RAW, line skipping, ISO performance etc. etc. I will admit I sometimes just have to smile as I read about fellow videographers dismissing a camera in these price ranges due to lacking or gaining these features.  

Maybe I am a bit jaded, probably because my little corner of the industry is littered with mediocre footage and so my customer's expectations aren't much above mediocre as well, but IMO any camera released in the last 5yrs can create amazing footage. At the end of the day it is the content that matters and if the camera fits into your workflow and has features that helps vs hinders your creativity then that is the camera for you more so than paper specs.

I think it is safe to say that the plethora of cameras released in the sub $10K USD range are aimed at online/social media content creators and I am not ashamed to say that that is exactly where 90%+ of my content ends up. Once this footage is online it is most likely to be viewed on a tiny cell phone screen at 480P resolution. I say all of that to say that I think the R7 is probably going to be an incredible little camera that is more than good enough to shoot most of the online content that their owners choose to create.

I agree, any  semipro/pro hybrid camera released in the past 5 years is going to be good enough for photography and video!

What's the WORST example we can think of which was released since 2018??

Canon R? Does 30MP images, and outputs 4K 10bit.

Nikon Z6? Does 4K raw output for goodness sake!

Fujifilm X-H1? Panasonic GH5S?  Olympus E-M5 mk3? Sony a7mk3? They might not be everyone's cup of tea today in 2022, but they each got a tonne of praise when released and produce nice 4K images. 

Maybe the only semipro/pro camera released in 2018 we could be critical about is the Fujifilm GFX 50R, but of course that is playing into a small niche focused on medium format photography. So full marks for those types of stills there, but only 1080 video. 

Oh wait, I just remembered the Pentax K-1 Mark II came out in 2018! We can't criticize its stills capabilities at all, but video... only 1080 😕 

So fine, we found ONE (two, if you count the medium format camera, three if you include the 50S mk2 as well) semipro/pro camera released in the last five years which isn't suitable for both stills and video. And it is so obscure, most of us haven't even heard about it, or have forgotten about it already. 

29 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Even the old Canon 5Dmk2 (let alone a much more capable camera such as the Nikon D750, which is still a very old camera itself!) is so capable I can understand if photographers are not necessarily upgrading (or perhaps only upgrading their main camera, but not their backup camera). As they're running a business and can't just waste money unnecessarily. Scott Choucino talks about this a lot in his youtube channel, I highly recommend subscribing

I'm trying to take this same philosophy and apply it to  my work as a Sound Mixer as well. 

(one of the reasons I enjoy listening to Scott Choucino, even though I'm not a professional photographer, as I feel there is still a lot of overlap that I can learn from)

Avoid the temptation to upgrade to DPA 6060! When my Sanken COS11D / DPA 4060 work just fine. 

Why get a Sanken CSM1 when I have 3x Sanken CS1e?

Resist the desire to get a teeny tiny Lectrosonics SSM transmitter when my still rather small Lectrosonics SMV do the job! (and I've got five of them!)

Put off the plan to do the big upgrade to Shure Axient Digital Wireless, when my Lectrosonics Digital Hybrids are still "the industry standard" and do a great job. 

Don't ever buy an Anton Cantar (as much as I'd love to have all those features/ergonomics!), as it isn't like I'm ever going to get anything which my my Sound Devices 833 with its 16 track recorder can't handle. 

 

[herein2020]

30 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

To be fair in those cases, then the camera was either (Unsane) a bit of a gimmick to help market the movie, or (Hardcore Henry) integral to the storytelling of the movie. (you could never have done Hardcore Henry with an ARRI! Although, if Hardcore Henry was re-shoot today in 2022, I would be curious as to how it might go with a Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera, Sigma FP, or a Z Cam E2-M4. None of those cameras where an option back when Hardcore Henry were filmed) 

If you're not one of those weird rare exceptions, when you shouldn't use a GoPro or iPhone to film your next feature film. 

But I agree with your general point: content is king. 

I agree, any  semipro/pro hybrid camera released in the past 5 years is going to be good enough for photography and video!

What's the WORST example we can think of which was released since 2018??

Canon R? Does 30MP images, and outputs 4K 10bit.

Nikon Z6? Does 4K raw output for goodness sake!

Fujifilm X-H1? Panasonic GH5S?  Olympus E-M5 mk3? Sony a7mk3? They might not be everyone's cup of tea today in 2022, but they each got a tonne of praise when released and produce nice 4K images. 

Maybe the only semipro/pro camera released in 2018 we could be critical about is the Fujifilm GFX 50R, but of course that is playing into a small niche focused on medium format photography. So full marks for those types of stills there, but only 1080 video. 

Oh wait, I just remembered the Pentax K-1 Mark II came out in 2018! We can't criticize its stills capabilities at all, but video... only 1080 😕 

So fine, we found ONE (two, if you count the medium format camera, three if you include the 50S mk2 as well) semipro/pro camera released in the last five years which isn't suitable for both stills and video. And it is so obscure, most of us haven't even heard about it, or have forgotten about it already. 

 

One of my favorites sayings is chase the tech(nique) don't chase the tech(nology). Any camera you have in your hands can create something that didn't exist before.

 

30 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

I'm trying to take this same philosophy and apply it to  my work as a Sound Mixer as well. 

(one of the reasons I enjoy listening to Scott Choucino, even though I'm not a professional photographer, as I feel there is still a lot of overlap that I can learn from)

Avoid the temptation to upgrade to DPA 6060! When my Sanken COS11D / DPA 4060 work just fine. 

Why get a Sanken CSM1 when I have 3x Sanken CS1e?

Resist the desire to get a teeny tiny Lectrosonics SSM transmitter when my still rather small Lectrosonics SMV do the job! (and I've got five of them!)

Put off the plan to do the big upgrade to Shure Axient Digital Wireless, when my Lectrosonics Digital Hybrids are still "the industry standard" and do a great job. 

Don't ever buy an Anton Cantar (as much as I'd love to have all those features/ergonomics!), as it isn't like I'm ever going to get anything which my my Sound Devices 833 with its 16 track recorder can't handle. 

 

 

Literally everything you just said from this point on went over my head 🤣. I still break out into a cold sweat just hooking up a lav mic. In fact I have gone full circle with the C70 and just stick to an on camera shotgun mic whenever possible or a simple Sennheiser wireless mic on the talent if we are mobile.  The only words I recognized were Sound Devices and that's because I have a MixPre6 that I only use during audio emergencies.

[IronFilm]

eh, everything I said anybody working in the Sound Dept would recognise. 

Is like saying "sticking with Canon C300m2, resisting the temptation to upgrade to Sony VENICE2"

Both massively popular products, both very very good products. But one is clearly better than the other. 

[MrSMW]

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

always found weddings less stressful than major budget film sets. But it is a different kind of stress

I’ve never even been on a movie set (but if I could live my life over again, it’s a path I’d like to take) so only know weddings.

Generally, any time I read about the stress of shooting weddings, it’s from folks that have only shot a handful.

It’s all I have been doing for the last 22 years, the last 20 of which full-time, so like anything you literally eat, sleep and breathe, the actual process becomes second nature.

Beside the basics, there are then really only 3 other elements:

Firefighting. Dealing in real time with stuff that is not happening according to the planners spreadsheet.

Shooting for fun/for yourself. Once the basics are second nature and providing you are not firefighting any given chapter, creativity can take over.

Marketing. That is the biggest stress in weddings today, being found and being booked.

But back on with the camera talk!

 

 

[IronFilm]

I think also the fact for most of the weddings I shot over the years, I was a second shooter, which I reckon isolated my from a lot of the core stresses the bride/groom would put on the lead videographer. So in general, I found (once I'd been doing them for a little while) weddings to be quite chill for me. 

  

18 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Marketing. That is the biggest stress in weddings today, being found and being booked.

Exactly, there is more stresses involved in getting up to the point of being there to shoot, than there is on the wedding day itself. 

[Django]

10 hours ago, herein2020 said:

We were talking (or at least I was talking) about the R5C specifically and with the R5C the common working theory is that the only way they got it to not overheat even with a fan was to remove IBIS. The 8K affects IBIS because if it wasn't an 8K sensor they probably could have cooled it down properly without removing IBIS (hence the R7 and R3 both have IBIS and don't overheat).  

R7 is a smaller APS-C sensor and R3 is a 2.5x bigger body so both have better thermal management. 

But ok I was not aware of the theory of IBIS being removed for heat protection. If so that's kinda lame but R5C is after all just a tweaked R5 not an entire redesign.

R3 & R7 do overheat in certain modes by the way, just nowhere as bad as R5/R6.

10 hours ago, herein2020 said:

@Kisaha @Django @ade towell @ntblowz  8K, 10bit, 4:2:2, RAW, line skipping, ISO performance etc. etc. I will admit I sometimes just have to smile as I read about fellow videographers dismissing a camera in these price ranges due to lacking or gaining these features.  

Maybe I am a bit jaded, probably because my little corner of the industry is littered with mediocre footage and so my customer's expectations aren't much above mediocre as well, but IMO any camera released in the last 5yrs can create amazing footage. At the end of the day it is the content that matters and if the camera fits into your workflow and has features that helps vs hinders your creativity then that is the camera for you more so than paper specs.

I think it is safe to say that the plethora of cameras released in the sub $10K USD range are aimed at online/social media content creators and I am not ashamed to say that that is exactly where 90%+ of my content ends up. Once this footage is online it is most likely to be viewed on a tiny cell phone screen at 480P resolution. I say all of that to say that I think the R7 is probably going to be an incredible little camera that is more than good enough to shoot most of the online content that their owners choose to create.

I understand your point of view however you shouldn't assume all of us are doing social media content that ends up viewed on smartphones. I do a lot of high-end corporate work that ends up proofed by clients on 5K iMacs and often viewed on big screens & projectors in conferences, trade shows and what not. The clients have really high standards and my competition here in Paris delivers super high quality. I also do a lot of chroma keying, 3D integration, heavy grading & the occasional TV broadcast all of which benefit if not require 10-bit 4:2:2. +4K high resolution is also more & more useful for cropping, my editors always embrace it.

The good news is that most mirrorless cameras now deliver high-resolution, pro codecs, RAW etc. Its now possible to get cine cam results out of prosumer cameras. So while all this may be marketing and overkill for some, it isn't for everyone.

That being said, I'm not slaved to upgrade path. My 2014 FS7 still serves me good and the R6 is a mid-level camera.

I do have access to a BMD 6K Pro for anything more high-end and rent/hire cine cam/DPs if/when the budget allows.

Of course there is so much more than just the camera body itself to ensure a successful project and that should also be reminded.

7 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I always found weddings less stressful than major budget film sets. But it is a different kind of stress, and I guess I'd done more years of wedding than major level films. Perhaps in a few more years I'll be more at ease. 

Yeah its like anything. My former career was in music and performing in front of crowds was quite a hurdle at first but after some time became second nature. I actually believe that having some apprehension isn't necessarily a bad thing, it keeps you a bit on your toes. Once that's gone, you can become lazy/bored/jaded and not perform at your best. that's when for me its time to switch gears.

7 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Even the old Canon 5Dmk2 (let alone a much more capable camera such as the Nikon D750, which is still a very old camera itself!) is so capable I can understand if photographers are not necessarily upgrading (or perhaps only upgrading their main camera, but not their backup camera). As they're running a business and can't just waste money unnecessarily.

I still have my 5D mk1 and love the output. D750 is a workhorse, it's the camera that got me to switch back to Nikon for a few years. Most pleasure I get these days is from my 2009 Leica M9. So yeah imo, stills cameras peaked a long time ago and the switch to mirrorless is not necessarily an upgrade hence why a lot of pros I know still stick to DSLRs. Optical viewfinder, the ruggedness, battery life, even the off-sensor AF confidence of crosspoints is superior. The only real benefit of mirrorless is weight.

[MrSMW]

4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Exactly, there is more stresses involved in getting up to the point of being there to shoot, than there is on the wedding day itself.

When I started out it was about 90% craft, 10% marketing/advertising.

Today it’s more like 90% marketing and 10% craft.

You still need the craft of course but if you are not being found in the first place…

 

[MrSMW]

Actually, I’m going to revise that figure for today to 50% of each as craft forms a part of marketing ie it’s much easier to market something if quality and desirable than it is a pile of poo.

Not in all cases, but folks who are generally top of their game craft-wise, are usually pretty good at marketing that fact.

[herein2020]

2 hours ago, Django said:

R7 is a smaller APS-C sensor and R3 is a 2.5x bigger body so both have better thermal management. 

But ok I was not aware of the theory of IBIS being removed for heat protection. If so that's kinda lame but R5C is after all just a tweaked R5 not an entire redesign.

R3 & R7 do overheat in certain modes by the way, just nowhere as bad as R5/R6.

I understand your point of view however you shouldn't assume all of us are doing social media content that ends up viewed on smartphones. I do a lot of high-end corporate work that ends up proofed by clients on 5K iMacs and often viewed on big screens & projectors in conferences, trade shows and what not. The clients have really high standards and my competition here in Paris delivers super high quality. I also do a lot of chroma keying, 3D integration, heavy grading & the occasional TV broadcast all of which benefit if not require 10-bit 4:2:2. +4K high resolution is also more & more useful for cropping, my editors always embrace it.

The good news is that most mirrorless cameras now deliver high-resolution, pro codecs, RAW etc. Its now possible to get cine cam results out of prosumer cameras. So while all this may be marketing and overkill for some, it isn't for everyone.

That being said, I'm not slaved to upgrade path. My 2014 FS7 still serves me good and the R6 is a mid-level camera.

I do have access to a BMD 6K Pro for anything more high-end and rent/hire cine cam/DPs if/when the budget allows.

Of course there is so much more than just the camera body itself to ensure a successful project and that should also be reminded.

 

Very fair points, and if that is your situation then going for absolute top quality makes sense. I definitely did not mean to imply that everyone here is only shooting content for social media I was simply stating that the crowded sub $10K mirrorless field is mainly targeted at social media content producers and for those that fit into that category any one of them is good enough for any social media platform. Its actually impressive that you are able to be competitive and deliver the quality your customers demand using these cameras.

I still think the R5 mainly overheats because of that 8K sensor; not saying 45MP isn't nice for photography, I shoot a lot of content that needs to be vertical for social media and landscape for other platforms; with 45MP I can just crop to get either orientation, but Canon definitely could have controlled the heat better with a lower resolution sensor. Speaking of lower resolution sensors, my S5 had IBIS and never overheated while shooting 4K30FPS or 4K60FPS (cropped). Of course even the S5 probably would have overheated after a few hrs in direct sunlight or with uncropped 4K60FPS, but then so would most cameras even with a fan.

6 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I’ve never even been on a movie set (but if I could live my life over again, it’s a path I’d like to take) so only know weddings.

Generally, any time I read about the stress of shooting weddings, it’s from folks that have only shot a handful.

It’s all I have been doing for the last 22 years, the last 20 of which full-time, so like anything you literally eat, sleep and breathe, the actual process becomes second nature.

Beside the basics, there are then really only 3 other elements:

Firefighting. Dealing in real time with stuff that is not happening according to the planners spreadsheet.

Shooting for fun/for yourself. Once the basics are second nature and providing you are not firefighting any given chapter, creativity can take over.

Marketing. That is the biggest stress in weddings today, being found and being booked.

But back on with the camera talk!

 

So true, I've only shot a few and really disliked it but since I rarely shoot them I found them way more stressful than shooting bigger events. I can shoot a 2000+ person conference or event with photos, video, audio, interviews, vendors, b-roll, drone, etc. with ease, but find a 100 person wedding more stressful. Its like you said, if you rarely do something it can be very stressful. 

Marketing is definitely by far the most stressful, getting found and getting booked is by far more stressful than the project itself. The word of mouth and repeat clients are the best, attracting new clients is much harder. 

[Django]

2 hours ago, herein2020 said:

Very fair points, and if that is your situation then going for absolute top quality makes sense. I definitely did not mean to imply that everyone here is only shooting content for social media I was simply stating that the crowded sub $10K mirrorless field is mainly targeted at social media content producers and for those that fit into that category any one of them is good enough for any social media platform. Its actually impressive that you are able to be competitive and deliver the quality your customers demand using these cameras.

Thanks but its really not that impressive given the capabilities of these cameras. I can't agree with you that the sub $10K mirrorless field is mainly targeted at social media content. Flagship mirrorless models like R3/Z9/R5C/A7S3/FX3/GH6/S1H/XH2S and BMD 6K Pro are oriented towards a bunch of other pro video applications including corporate, documentary, news, sports, events, behind the scenes, indie cinema, music videos etc. It's been like that for a couple years really (5D3, A7S2 and BMD really changed the game). Of course the cameras are always rigged to fit such demands, which is why I said the camera body alone isn't the whole picture. And that's also when cameras like the FS7/FX6/C70 etc can also make better sense than rigged up mirrorless. 

2 hours ago, herein2020 said:

I still think the R5 mainly overheats because of that 8K sensor; not saying 45MP isn't nice for photography, I shoot a lot of content that needs to be vertical for social media and landscape for other platforms; with 45MP I can just crop to get either orientation, but Canon definitely could have controlled the heat better with a lower resolution sensor. Speaking of lower resolution sensors, my S5 had IBIS and never overheated while shooting 4K30FPS or 4K60FPS (cropped). Of course even the S5 probably would have overheated after a few hrs in direct sunlight or with uncropped 4K60FPS, but then so would most cameras even with a fan.

The R5 overheating was debunked as artificial timers. That's not to say the camera doesn't heat up in 8K/4K120 and oversampled 4K60/30 but the issue was exaggerated by these artificial timers. R6 doesn't have an 8K sensor by the way and overheats as well. Clearly the thermal management on that generation of Canons isn't the best (wether its conservative artificial limitations or not). So in FF you're pretty much left with R5C & R3 only as your non overheating options. One lacks IBIS and the other costs $6K. This is indeed where the R7 may be tempting. Or wait for the next FF R series.. Canon seem like they're on a release roll. They really wanna grab users to sell their RF lenses now that EF is phased out.

2 hours ago, herein2020 said:

Marketing is definitely by far the most stressful, getting found and getting booked is by far more stressful than the project itself. The word of mouth and repeat clients are the best, attracting new clients is much harder. 

I use an agency these days for new clients. They call/email and I say yes or no. Of course this type of service takes a hefty commission but I hate marketing/prospecting especially post-COVID as the competition is hungry and fierce in my scene. Clients do bids and all kinds of shenanigans which can be a huge stress and colossal waste of time when deals don't go through. Still not earning near what I used to so times are hard which is another hurdle towards upgrade path. I use what I have for now and rent/hire extra when I can. I made some poor purchase decisions in the recent past (C200) so I'm really being careful and observing where the market is going.

[IronFilm]

What was bad for you about the Canon C200?

[Django]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

What was bad for you about the Canon C200?

The 8-bit codec was plain weak. And the RAW had massive files. The 4K was also very soft and not in that good soft but detailed cine way. EF so almost no adapting or focal reducer. The body itself was very nice but I just ended up still using the FS7 9.5 times out of 10.

Got almost no use of it, bought it right before the price drop and lost so much selling it virtually new. Worst investment ever for me basically. 

Crazy to think my R6 absolutely destroys it IQ wise. 

The FS7 still holds its own. I've bought it twice now. Such a workhorse. 

This of course kinda makes me doubt going C70 (even though I'm leaning towards it) over FX6.

[herein2020]

6 hours ago, Django said:

Thanks but its really not that impressive given the capabilities of these cameras. I can't agree with you that the sub $10K mirrorless field is mainly targeted at social media content. Flagship mirrorless models like R3/Z9/R5C/A7S3/FX3/GH6/S1H/XH2S and BMD 6K Pro are oriented towards a bunch of other pro video applications including corporate, documentary, news, sports, events, behind the scenes, indie cinema, music videos etc. It's been like that for a couple years really (5D3, A7S2 and BMD really changed the game). Of course the cameras are always rigged to fit such demands, which is why I said the camera body alone isn't the whole picture. And that's also when cameras like the FS7/FX6/C70 etc can also make better sense than rigged up mirrorless. 

That is true, I have shot corporate, news, sports, events, and music videos but it all still seemed to just end up on social media and YT 😀. Corporate work typically ends up on their websites hosted by Vimeo, I have also been an additional camera op and b-roll shooter for TV commercial work but not what I enjoy doing.

 

6 hours ago, Django said:

 So in FF you're pretty much left with R5C & R3 only as your non overheating options. One lacks IBIS and the other costs $6K. This is indeed where the R7 may be tempting. Or wait for the next FF R series.. Canon seem like they're on a release roll. They really wanna grab users to sell their RF lenses now that EF is phased out.

From Canon, but Panasonic still manages to do very well in the overheating department. But Panasonic went with lower resolution sensors and when necessary they even used crop modes; which all added up to reliable cameras. I do think the second gen R cameras will see an improvement in the thermal department, I am pretty sure Canon won't make that type of mistake twice.

I definitely want to see some detailed R7 test results, I think with the smaller sensor and cropped 4K60FPS it should be very reliable.  If it does prove to be as efficient as the S5 was at heat management I will probably get one.

6 hours ago, Django said:

I made some poor purchase decisions in the recent past (C200) so I'm really being careful and observing where the market is going.

@IronFilm I made the same poor purchasing decision when I got the C200, fortunately the rest of the rig is compatible with the C70 so the cost of the body and cage for it were my main mistakes. In the end I needed a camera I could put on a one handed gimbal as a OMB, better 4K, better codecs, etc.  The C70 checked all of those boxes for me especially with the recent RAW update. IMO the C70 is more camera than anything I will need video wise for the foreseeable future.

[Kisaha]

I remember having some heated disputes here a few years ago about that specific camera (C200) and the first R ones.

For me were wasted money, as obviously were on a middle ground just before Canon started all their modern releases and get back to the game, or not very competitive at that timeline with many limitations.

Even Canon, usually very protective of their releases, just "ignored" these ones and are putting out there one camera after another.

[herein2020]

5 hours ago, Kisaha said:

I remember having some heated disputes here a few years ago about that specific camera (C200) and the first R ones.

For me were wasted money, as obviously were on a middle ground just before Canon started all their modern releases and get back to the game, or not very competitive at that timeline with many limitations.

Even Canon, usually very protective of their releases, just "ignored" these ones and are putting out there one camera after another.

Yes I was very vocal in my criticism when the EOS R came out as well as when the overheating controversy with the R5 was just getting started...so vocal in fact that I was banned from the Canon Rumors site where apparently only blindly loyal fanboyism is allowed.

As far as the R7 goes, Gordon Lang did a great review of it in the video below. Based on the video I did pick out a few things that I really like and dislike:

Dislike - It still requires a USB-PD source to power it. This is important to me because my current V-Mount battery setup that I was able to power the C200, C70, and S5 with won't work for this camera. The R5 has the same problem. 

Likes

Batteries - It uses the same batteries as the R5 and 5DIV, so I would start off on day one with tons of useable batteries already.

Lens Compatibility - This camera could possibly be the most compatible camera Canon has ever created. It supports RF-S lenses, RF lenses, EF lenses, AND EF-S lenses, so owners will have a massive array of economical options to shoot with. Of course an adapter is needed for EF and EF-S but I don't think EF-S lenses can be used with the R5 even with the adapter but I could be wrong.

Another cool tidbit from the video is that RF-S lenses will be compatible with both crop sensor and FF RF mount cameras. 

Overheating - Gordon did not mention ambient room temps during his quick overheating test but it was still nice to see 2hrs and 20min recording at its highest 4K mode without overheating. It also has a nifty overheating tracking gauge which showed it wasn't even close. That would be nice to have in the R5.

In the video it looked like the 4K HQ mode is a massive improvement over the other modes, not sure if it was just a change in other settings in the camera that Gordon made, but to me its rare to see that big of an increase in quality when switching between different video modes in a camera body. I'm looking forward to seeing more video focused tests and especially low light tests. If this camera had dual native ISO it truly would have been great. Without it, I would be happy if it was useable up to 3200ISO.

The seamless integration between this camera and my other Canon cameras (batteries, lenses, adapters, etc.) makes this body very interesting to me.  I stick by my original statement that Canon might have accidentally created the hybrid camera we've been waiting for.