RED Files Lawsuit Against Nikon

[TomTheDP]

Sony has compressed RAW too. The Venice can do 16 bit RAW at about 500mbps. Not sure why or how. Prores 444 is good for me, especially because you can downsample prores without losing too much detail. 2k or 3k Prores 444 off the Alexa is my preferred way to shoot.

Just saw a mini in decent condition being sold for 26k, maybe I'll be able to get one soon. 🤣

[Video Hummus]

If RED's compressed RAW matters so much why is everybody who has the money shooting on ARRI cameras?

[TomTheDP]

1 minute ago, Video Hummus said:

If RED's compressed RAW matters so much why is everybody who has the money shooting on ARRI cameras?

Because people 1:1 4.6k RAW is no problem for a big production I guess. I am sure ARRI would have a compressed RAW option if it wasn't for RED. RED is sometimes used on big production though like Guardians of the Galaxy 2.
 

[Video Hummus]

35 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

RED is sometimes used on big production

So I guess dealing with 1:1 4.6K RAW is worth it over using a RED camera just for the compressed RAW.

I have no problem with RED's innovation and them making money off it and protecting it. 

However, the way that patent is written is complete and utter bullshit. It's like someone claiming they have exclusive rights to any vehicle using round wheels going over 50mph.  It's excessively broad.

[Andrew Reid]

It may sound excessively broad now, but someone has to be first with the round wheels and going over 50mph.

Not defending RED, just think there is probably a valid reason why Graeme's work keeps beating a lot of big companies in expensive patent lawsuits.

Where was the almighty Sony in 2005 with their lossless compressed RAW codec?

[Ryan Earl]

44 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

It may sound excessively broad now, but someone has to be first with the round wheels and going over 50mph.

William Wolowitz came up with the plastic credit card (pre-striping and chip) and the oil companies selling gasoline stole his idea.  

"Mr. Wolowitz held patents in the field of plastic credit cards, having thought of using plastic cards with raised letters and a machine that could transfer these letters to credit forms, along with the price of the goods purchased.

In the 1960s, he filed suit in federal court for alleged infringement of these patents. Eventually, the Golf Oil Corp., Humble Oil Co., and Addressograph-Multigraph Corp. and other companies settled "for a seven-figure amount,""

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1978/02/09/william-wolowitz-invented-typing-credit-card-devices/8200d87f-dab0-4bfa-b7c5-7314f35cd2e4/

He also came up with an erasing typewriter ribbon and had to sue IBM when they stole it.  

RED see themselves as the 'little guy' and maybe rightfully so relative to the earnings of Sony, Apple, Nikon et al.  

[webrunner5]

5 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

Because people 1:1 4.6k RAW is no problem for a big production I guess. I am sure ARRI would have a compressed RAW option if it wasn't for RED. RED is sometimes used on big production though like Guardians of the Galaxy 2.
 

Red has been pretty notorious through the years of just flat out giving DOP's, Directors cameras and lenses to use, sort of how Apple got their foot in the door in the industry. I am not saying they are bad cameras, just that they might not have been the desired choice without a little push by Red. 

[IronFilm]

23 hours ago, Nikkor said:

They can rename it to 24 fps continuous burst mode in single file raw container

With bonus audio!

For err... note taking

[IronFilm]

9 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

Just saw a mini in decent condition being sold for 26k, maybe I'll be able to get one soon. 🤣

Damn, dropping quicker than I though, already well under sub $30K

Just the bare body? Anything else?

Here comes sub $20K Minis!!

8 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

If RED's compressed RAW matters so much why is everybody who has the money shooting on ARRI cameras?

Because colors, dynamic range, and reliability all matter far more than resolution or raw. 

(although you can shoot raw with ARRI too)

7 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

However, the way that patent is written is complete and utter bullshit. It's like someone claiming they have exclusive rights to any vehicle using round wheels going over 50mph.  It's excessively broad.

lol! A ridiculous analogy, but accurate. Because their patent is ridiculous. 

 

5 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

It may sound excessively broad now, but someone has to be first with the round wheels and going over 50mph.

It was excessively broad now, and it was then as well. 

When people were already going over 50mph with nonwheel things, and wheels were already being used here there and everywhere, then it is a no brainer to imagine one day people would go 50mph with wheels too. 

RED essentially just took the commonly known JPEG-2000 compression standard and went "oh hey we want a patent for doing this at 24fps"

[mercer]

I honestly don't understand how people who create things get angry with a company that created something and want to protect their work.

If you went online and found someone on YouTube that decided to use one of your videos and put their name on it, I'm sure you would flag it.

[Video Hummus]

11 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

It may sound excessively broad now, but someone has to be first with the round wheels and going over 50mph.

Not defending RED, just think there is probably a valid reason why Graeme's work keeps beating a lot of big companies in expensive patent lawsuits.

Where was the almighty Sony in 2005 with their lossless compressed RAW codec?

I'm not doubting the work of Graeme's work. Patent the hell out of it. But they can't claim they have exclusive rights to "'visually lossless' compressed data derived from raw, stored in camera memory at greater than 23 fps."

Precisely define visually lossless. Precisely define "in-camera". Precisely define "data". RAW Bayer CFA? What is stopping Fuji from using its X-Trans sensor layout (not bayer) and doing the same thing? Can they sue Fuji for that? Does RED's patent apply to every possible sensor layout not invented by them because they have patents over words like "camera", "raw", "data", "compression"?

There are lots of patents for data compression 'methodologies', which is what Graeme's work truly is, as applied to cameras. He did not invent "camera", "raw", "data", or "compression", or "greater than 23fps capture".

[Video Hummus]

4 hours ago, mercer said:

I honestly don't understand how people who create things get angry with a company that created something and want to protect their work.

If you went online and found someone on YouTube that decided to use one of your videos and put their name on it, I'm sure you would flag it.

That's entirely different to a highly nuanced technology discussion.

[ND64]

3 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

I'm not doubting the work of Graeme's work. Patent the hell out of it. But they can't claim they have exclusive rights to "'visually lossless' compressed data derived from raw, stored in camera memory at greater than 23 fps."

Basically they patented a condition 🙂

[TomTheDP]

4 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

That's entirely different to a highly nuanced technology discussion.

Yeah this.

RED is the most gimmicky camera company out there. Who would of thought with names like "Epic Dragon".

 They are good at marketing, which is why their stuff is so popular in the indie scene. In Detroit so many people know of RED and have never heard of ARRI. But talk to any high end DOP and they will tell you RED is bottom of the barrel for cine cameras. I don't think I have ever heard one positive thing about RED cameras from people who work in higher end productions. Of course that is just coming from being in the Detroit Michigan area.

However I do really like the RED Komodo. They finally nailed the color science. The camera itself and the power draw is also ideal for indie run and gun productions. The RED Raven is also pretty compelling at 3k used right now. It's too bad mini mags are still so expensive. The RED Komodo and the Raptor are both really compelling. I wish they went for lower resolution sensors. I'd much prefer a 4k s35 camera and a 6k full frame camera. 20K for what you get on the Raptor is really awesome.

 

[Django]

RED bottom of the barrel?!! cmon.. their politics were often fishy with all the overpriced proprietary stuff and the cheap OEM scandals.. and the compressed RAW patent is cringe. They sure got good lawyers it seems. But in the end the cameras deliver. 

And with Komodo its definitely a new chapter. Looks we finally got 6K for 6K. Its the best IQ for price factor out there imo.

[mercer]

6 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

That's entirely different to a highly nuanced technology discussion.

It always is...

The patent may seem broad, but it is very specific to their use. Others have gotten around it. Either through licensing or design.

In this instance, I'm not so sure N-Raw is the problem based on TiCo Raw's claims about their product. I think the issue may be internal ProRes Raw. But I haven't read the full complaint.

With that said, this does suck. The Raw video out of the Z9 looks amazing. And I would consider downloading the firmware if I preordered a camera or had plans to buy one soon.

Hopefully they come to terms and Nikon uses the codec in future models. I'd love to see a Z63 with internal raw. Instant purchase. 

[TomTheDP]

1 hour ago, Django said:

RED bottom of the barrel?!! cmon.. their politics were often fishy with all the overpriced proprietary stuff and the cheap OEM scandals.. and the compressed RAW patent is cringe. They sure got good lawyers it seems. But in the end the cameras deliver. 

And with Komodo its definitely a new chapter. Looks we finally got 6K for 6K. Its the best IQ for price factor out there imo.

Yeah in terms of cine cameras, bottom of the barrel. For cinema or high end commercial you pretty much have ARRI, Sony, and RED. Around here everyone like ARRI or Venice. Obviously RED gets used, Squid Games was shot on RED helium.

Now the Panavision DXL2 is a different story, if you want to count that as a RED camera then yeah it gets a ton of high end usage.

Off topic, I have been considering the Venice but I recently was looking at some high dynamic range shots with their REC709 lut and it just wasn't doing it for me. The Alexa would have looked better. Now I am sure with some work they'd look the same. But I'd just rather go with an OG alexa mini at that point. It is light and smaller. That said I'd probably get more work with the Venice due to its 6K full frame sensor.
 

[webrunner5]

20 minutes ago, mercer said:

It always is...

The patent may seem broad, but it is very specific to their use. Others have gotten around it. Either through licensing or design.

In this instance, I'm not so sure N-Raw is the problem based on TiCo Raw's claims about their product. I think the issue may be internal ProRes Raw. But I haven't read the full complaint.

With that said, this does suck. The Raw video out of the Z9 looks amazing. And I would consider downloading the firmware if I preordered a camera or had plans to buy one soon.

Hopefully they come to terms and Nikon uses the codec in future models. I'd love to see a Z63 with internal raw. Instant purchase. 

ProRes is an Apple product, it has Nothing to do with Red. Look at the bottom and you will see Nikon Z9 listed as licensed to use it from Apple.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT200321

[mercer]

17 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

ProRes is an Apple product, it has Nothing to do with Red. Look at the bottom and you will see Nikon Z9 listed as licensed to use it from Apple.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT200321

Red sued Apple, and won, a few years ago, because Apple wanted to use ProRes Raw, a compressed Raw codec, in their phones. That's why you only see ProRes Raw in Atomos recorders... it gets around Red's patent. So Nikon can license ProRes Raw all they want from Apple, but Red's patent still keeps Nikon from using an internal compressed Raw codec.

[Andrew Reid]

I would be ok with Nikon Z9 even if it shot uncompressed raw.

Maybe 12bit, not 14 or 16 to save space.

Maybe 2.35:1 aspect to save yet more space.

And even 2.8K rather than 4K to save yet more file size.

Then a Nikon app for Mac & PC which turns it into compressed RAW off-camera so you're not filling terabytes of expensive SSDs with bloated uncompressed RAW files.

Hopefully Nikon can be smart and creative about this if they lose the lawsuit.

And get BRAW in there ASAP too.