Fuji X-H2S

[TomTheDP]

38 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

Everyone has their preferences, but to me Sony IBIS is almost pointless to have. It's one thing if you're just standing still since it'll eliminate most micro jitters but any actual movement looks pretty bad. I do wonder though if that's due to the size of the mount? 

You mean due to it being full frame? The S1 is full frame but has really good IBIS. Of course the body is bigger but the mount is just as shallow on the S1 or close to it.

[D Verco]

Lot of comments here saying "oh this other camera has a better version of this feature" and you could say that for every camera. but it just depends if the collection of compromises and price suits where you're at. 

 

For me I already have a couple of Fuji lenses so I've preordered. 

[IronFilm]

17 hours ago, Django said:

FS5/FS7/FX6/FX9.. C70. It's doable !

Add the F3/F5/F55 to that list as well! 

FZ Mount is very shallow. 

 

3 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Everyone has their preferences, but to me Sony IBIS is almost pointless to have. It's one thing if you're just standing still since it'll eliminate most micro jitters but any actual movement looks pretty bad. I do wonder though if that's due to the size of the mount? 

Sony's E Mount was never ever originally designed to be a FF format. (unlike Nikon Z, or Canon RF)

It was an APS-C design, for APS-C cameras, but they tried to cram a FF sensor into that APS-C lens mount! They 
"did" it, but left very little "wriggle room" for the IBIS to operate in. 

[ND64]

50 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

It was an APS-C design, for APS-C cameras, but they tried to cram a FF sensor into that APS-C lens mount! They 
"did" it, but left very little "wriggle room" for the IBIS to operate in. 

Sony IBIS problem is not like it can't move a lot. The problem is overcorrection. All IBIS systems should be content aware. They should know whats going on in the scene. Respond to vibration isn't enough. 

[Owlgreen]

The footage looks damned good to me. Stacked sensor seems like the move. A GFX with a stacked sensor will be great. For filmmaking the XH2s looks like it will be a little monster.

[hyalinejim]

Caveat emptor: from a dpreview poster who got to try the camera in-store...

"The thing legit locked up on me and required a battery pull five times inside of a half hour with it."

"The worse news, and why you don't see any of the reviews that lean positive about the AF actually show video results. It's as bad as ever. Pulsing and hyper actively finding faces in doorways just as bad as the XT4 did. It's like the box you see on the screen is doing something completely different than what's actually recording. At F5.6 like most the positive reviews use, it's pretty confident but holy smokes even at 2.8 with the brick this thing was all over the place."

 

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

Caveat emptor: from a dpreview poster who got to try the camera in-store...

Caveat emptor indeed regarding anything any DP Review poster posts.

Troll cave.

[hyalinejim]

45 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Caveat emptor indeed regarding anything any DP Review poster posts

Sure, there's a lot of noise as there is in any online space, not least here. But does that mean we should disregard every contribution ever made on a given forum? Well, not if we have even a moderate capacity to separate the signal from the noise.

 

 

 

[newfoundmass]

18 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

You mean due to it being full frame? The S1 is full frame but has really good IBIS. Of course the body is bigger but the mount is just as shallow on the S1 or close to it.

It's not the distance between the mount and the sensor, but the circular size of the mount itself. There's not a ton of room for the sensor to move left, right, up and down because the mount is so small. This limits how much the IBIS can work. I think they'd need a pretty substantial crop in order to get comparable results as Panny, Canon, and Nikon. 

I think this is why Sony has moved towards post-stabilization options with Catalyst Browse. 

15 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Sony's E Mount was never ever originally designed to be a FF format. (unlike Nikon Z, or Canon RF)

It was an APS-C design, for APS-C cameras, but they tried to cram a FF sensor into that APS-C lens mount! They 
"did" it, but left very little "wriggle room" for the IBIS to operate in. 

It was simultaneously a very smart and very dumb move to use the same mount for FF. It is more of a positive, but it'll probably be a long time and require a lot of processing power if they're ever going to catch up in the stabilization department. It's nice that they've offered an alternative with Catalyst Browse but it's not ideal.

I wonder if Fuji is having similar problems because of the mount size? I'm also curious why there has been such a drop off in AF performance since the X-T3 and whether the IBIS is responsible? 

[IronFilm]

18 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

It was simultaneously a very smart and very dumb move to use the same mount for FF. It is more of a positive

Agreed, it was still a much better move for Sony than the entirely ditch their first mirrorless mount like Canon and Nikon did. 

Obviously Nikon had to ditch their mount!! And go with the Z Mount. 

Not sure what the exact set of pro/cons of Canon trying to shoehorn a FF sensor into their EOS-M mount was, but clearly they didn't think it was going to be long term worth it. 

[MrSMW]

9 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

Sure, there's a lot of noise as there is in any online space, not least here. But does that mean we should disregard every contribution ever made on a given forum? Well, not if we have even a moderate capacity to separate the signal from the noise.

 

 

 

I think we have a higher class of Trolls here.

And less of them.

But seriously, DP Review comments sections are an utter bitch-fest of misinformation.

IMO 😜

[Brian Williams]

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

I think we have a higher class of Trolls here.

And less of them.

But seriously, DP Review comments sections are an utter bitch-fest of misinformation.

IMO 😜

Also- and I realize I may be completely wrong here- do any stores have the camera yet? And even if one does, I can’t imagine it’s finalized firmware right?

Not that I am now defending this camera, everything the troll describes sounds as I would expect.

[hyalinejim]

44 minutes ago, Brian Williams said:

Also- and I realize I may be completely wrong here- do any stores have the camera yet?

There's a thread in the Fuji forum where three people describe their experience of trying a pre-production unit in-store. Now, one of those people is a dpreview mod. If that's trolling then I'll have to disagree with @MrSMW and say that dpreview is the site that has the higher class of troll 🤣

[MrSMW]

There are troll caves everywhere 😁

But seriously, who knows...

There are a bunch of people who deliberately post shit any and everywhere they can, just to cause mischief and DPR is their main window for this, but we get them here also obviously.

ALL of these cameras are pre-production units. Fuji have stated that and most serious reviewers have mentioned this, ie, firmware is not final.

I suspect as usual, it's a bit of 'everything', ie; pre-final firmware, user/unfamiliar errors, plus a bit of deliberate fault finding.

There's also some footage out there that looks a bit garbage and some absolutely beautiful stuff.

I think when it all shakes out, it will turn put that Fuji has produced a bit of a gem.

My only real issue with it at this time is the damned flip out screen...

It wouldn't be a deal-breaker but another strike (for me) against being 'The Perfect Camera' and as I may have said before, not quite enough to tempt me at this time.

To tempt me at any time it would need to be 'total package' vs 'cost to change' anyway and currently, no one is offering it.

[hyalinejim]

On 6/4/2022 at 11:45 PM, Owlgreen said:

The footage looks damned good to me

Yes, the colours at golden hour are lovely here and the dynamic range and colour reproduction seems good under the harsh NZ midday light (seriously, I've just returned from over a year of living in Auckland and the light in New Zealand in the daytime is so unforgiving. My theory is that it's because there are fewer atmospheric pollutants compared to Europe, where I'm from,  that give a hazier diffused effect that is actually quite pleasant!)

And this locked off shot has lovely colour - nice skintones, nice greens.

Rolling shutter performance looked great in the video but I didn't see too much use of IBIS lol!

I think this would be a great camera but it would take a bit more convincing for me to switch from Panny M43 to Fuji.

 

[Trek of Joy]

10 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

It's not the distance between the mount and the sensor, but the circular size of the mount itself. There's not a ton of room for the sensor to move left, right, up and down because the mount is so small. This limits how much the IBIS can work. I think they'd need a pretty substantial crop in order to get comparable results as Panny, Canon, and Nikon. 

I think this is why Sony has moved towards post-stabilization options with Catalyst Browse. 

It was simultaneously a very smart and very dumb move to use the same mount for FF. It is more of a positive, but it'll probably be a long time and require a lot of processing power if they're ever going to catch up in the stabilization department. It's nice that they've offered an alternative with Catalyst Browse but it's not ideal.

I wonder if Fuji is having similar problems because of the mount size? I'm also curious why there has been such a drop off in AF performance since the X-T3 and whether the IBIS is responsible? 

Don't forget there's also Active stabilization with the recent Sony's like the a7sIII and a7IV, which adds to IBIS with a slight crop, no catalyst browse needed. It's really, really good in most cases and easily as good as any other FF option and many times looks as good as the m43 standouts. If Sony is at the physical limits of stabilization because of the mount diameter, then digital options are the only options. 

Fuji has tons of extra space and still can't figure it out after a few generations. 

Fuji is already a small niche brand that relies on Instax to keep its camera division afloat. Canon and Nikon rolling out replacements for their entry level DSLR's and Sony pushing smaller FF cameras/lenses will eat into Fuji's already minuscule market share. They've built a good system overall, but they've hit a ceiling with their stabilization and AF that's a few steps below the big 3.

Quite frankly I'm surprised they're not using all this new processor power and sensor speed to do things like focus stacking, a pixel shift high res mode and even tap to track or eliminating EVF blackout to set themselves apart from the rapidly expanding competition in the RF/Z mounts. Even the new Olympus looks really good, but like the XH2s, its overpriced for its segment. For all their AF advances, its still not as intuitive to use as Canon or Sony and its not as good. That's going to drag them down in any comparison test. Even if they get it sorted down the line, the story of that model is written once its available to consumers and we get flooded with real world experiences. 

Chris

[IronFilm]

15 minutes ago, hyalinejim said:

Yes, the colours at golden hour are lovely here and the dynamic range and colour reproduction seems good under the harsh NZ midday light (seriously, I've just returned from over a year of living in Auckland and the light in New Zealand in the daytime is so unforgiving. My theory is that it's because there are fewer atmospheric pollutants compared to Europe, where I'm from,  that give a hazier diffused effect that is actually quite pleasant!)

Wait, wait, what, this was shot in NZ? Cool!

*randomly clicks through the video*

*hear him talking*

Ahhh... clearly a kiwi accent!

15 minutes ago, Trek of Joy said:

Fuji is already a small niche brand that relies on Instax to keep its camera division afloat. Canon and Nikon rolling out replacements for their entry level DSLR's and Sony pushing smaller FF cameras/lenses will eat into Fuji's already minuscule market share. They've built a good system overall, but they've hit a ceiling with their stabilization and AF that's a few steps below the big 3.

Yes, am sure Fuji is feeling the squeeze from smaller and more affordable FF such as the S5, EOS RP, & a7c

But if Fuji hangs around long enough for Medium Format to become affordable then they've got a bright future ahead for themselves!
 

[newfoundmass]

18 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Not sure what the exact set of pro/cons of Canon trying to shoehorn a FF sensor into their EOS-M mount was, but clearly they didn't think it was going to be long term worth it. 

My guess is, given how few lenses there were to begin with, they probably figured it was better to just start from scratch.

 

7 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

Don't forget there's also Active stabilization with the recent Sony's like the a7sIII and a7IV, which adds to IBIS with a slight crop, no catalyst browse needed. It's really, really good in most cases and easily as good as any other FF option and many times looks as good as the m43 standouts. If Sony is at the physical limits of stabilization because of the mount diameter, then digital options are the only options. 

I've used the A7Siii and I don't think it's as good as the S5's stabilization, but I'd have to do a side by side comparison to be sure. 

 

[IronFilm]

7 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

My guess is, given how few lenses there were to begin with, they probably figured it was better to just start from scratch.

True, probably a big factor. But then again, how many FF compatible lenses had Sony brought out when they launched the a7 mk1 series? 
 

[FS670ES]

I am sure that it will be a great camera for many but I am finally jumping ship from Fuji. After all those years they still can't fix their AF algorithm and their sticky IBIS and those two things are crucial for my run and gun photo/video fun.

I know we are now looking on preproduction tests but they won't fix those two big issues until camera is released and even down along when other models like X-T5 will hit the market. Fuji is now having some nice spec but I don't care about spec if AF and IBIS will constantly ruin my shots.

On top of this I would have to buy their bigger and expensive new LM glass to acheive somewhat usable AF and for this price and size you can get FF equivalents so size and price argument is also lost now with their APS-C in many cases.