Fuji X-H2S

[Attila Bakos]

9 hours ago, Daniel Robben said:

Concerning chroma details, I tested a bit, and noticed a jump of increased color details at ISO 3200 in standard profiles. Further, h265 All-I is a bad choice vs longGOP for such detailed not moving scenes. Prores has advantage as well here, even if its Intra frame encoding. f-log2 also worse than standard profiles.

So the best I could get (and almost completely get rid of smoothing) is with Prores HQ at ISO 3200 in standard profile.

When you test this make sure you cut the first second or so. Chroma is worse in the first few frames. Will test what you found later.

 

6 hours ago, D Verco said:

Also internal Flog2 will always have more dynamic range than the raw options because it's coming from a 14bit readout

The problem I described in my video is that ProRes RAW doesn't even have the DR of F-Log.

[Daniel Robben]

12 hours ago, Attila Bakos said:

When you test this make sure you cut the first second or so.

You're right, I am pretty sure I did

[Daniel Robben]

21 hours ago, Daniel Robben said:

increased color details at ISO 3200

Update: there is something, but I am not sure anymore that it effectively gives more details, just more noise going to appear that fits more consistent with what to expect at such medium-high ISO

[BrunoCH]

1 hour ago, Daniel Robben said:

Update: there is something, but I am not sure anymore that it effectively gives more details, just more noise going to appear that fits more consistent with what to expect at such medium-high ISO

It's possible that the noise is like dithering.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dither

[Django]

As I'm getting closer to pulling the trigger on a XH2S I'd just like to revisit the infamous chroma smoothing issues.

How big of a deal do you guys think this is? Like in practice when does it really bother you? It seems to me its only really noticeable when shooting foliage from a distance. But unless you're a nature landscape shooter I don't think you'll run into glaring issues.

In another thread someone just mentioned Fuji has the worst tonality and color separation. That and the over sharpening.

My reply was this is due to X-Trans. No AA filter and the chroma smoothing issues mentioned here.

But the upside is more detail and a much more filmic-like grain at high ISO due to less chroma noise.

I mean we tend to focus on the cons of X-Trans but there are pros as well, Fuji aren't crazy and stick with it for a reason.

That being said my main gripe is with the red channel. Reds are often pinkish, you can see it right there in the thumbnail below if you compare the red square to the ProRes RAW. The red is missing richness and has some pinkish hue:

Is there any solution for that? Like any color correction or LUT that fixes the red channel?

[Daniel Robben]

12 hours ago, Django said:

As I'm getting closer to pulling the trigger on a XH2S I'd just like to revisit the infamous chroma smoothing issues.

How big of a deal do you guys think this is? Like in practice when does it really bother you? It seems to me its only really noticeable when shooting foliage from a distance. But unless you're a nature landscape shooter I don't think you'll run into glaring issues.

In another thread someone just mentioned Fuji has the worst tonality and color separation. That and the over sharpening.

My reply was this is due to X-Trans. No AA filter and the chroma smoothing issues mentioned here.

But the upside is more detail and a much more filmic-like grain at high ISO due to less chroma noise.

I mean we tend to focus on the cons of X-Trans but there are pros as well, Fuji aren't crazy and stick with it for a reason.

That being said my main gripe is with the red channel. Reds are often pinkish, you can see it right there in the thumbnail below if you compare the red square to the ProRes RAW. The red is missing richness and has some pinkish hue:

Is there any solution for that? Like any color correction or LUT that fixes the red channel?

For the moment, I have found peace with x-h2s color smoothing. If you shoot Prores 422 or HQ in 6.2K standard film simulation, you will get color detail that is at the border to what the sensor is able to deliver. There is smoothing, but less smoothing would soon tend to unpleasant color noise. I saw that also in comparison with my G85 4K, which seemed richer than fujifilm 4K, but having a closer look also revealed "false richness" by delivering color where there is none.

Regarding 4K and if you don't want prores blow your memory card, shoot h265 longGop ~200Mbps, also in standard film simulations, and you get great footage where you will not notice any lack of color detail, unless you really look for it.

And you are right, you will mostly only notice lack of color detail (if any) in nature shots with little color contrast.

f-log2 is less good for such shots. Along with higher dynamic range, the chroma channels are compressed as well, which might be one of the reason that f-log2 has less color detail.

if you want specific modes to compare in advance to your purchase, let me know, I am happy to help.

Apart from color detail discussion, what is definetly great is the 4K 120p (always record at 720Mbps LongGoP, which convert to a 140Mbps Clip, if you want best quality). According to dpreview Video Stills Comparison Tool, its even better than A7SIII in terms of details captured. I saw only GH6 might beating it a little here.

The magenta cast in the reds I also noticed and don't like so much, but I understood fujifilm did that on purpose to please skin colors (see interview link below). You can easily correct in post if you want (hue vs hue curve in resolve for example). Also some of their film simulations don't have it as strong (I think also eterna tends more to red compared to provia)

For skin color captures I believe there is nothing to complain. Here the smoothing tends to even give advantages. My G85 skins are clearly worse, especially at higher ISOs, where X-H2s keeps colors under control pretty well.

Unfortunately I don't have its real competitors in my hand so I am limited in comparing them.

The link to the interview:

https://www.fujirumors.com/fujifilm-managers-talk-film-simulations-origins-evolutions-goals-misunderstandings-bold-classic-negative-and-much-more/

 

[BrunoCH]

On 3/21/2023 at 7:14 PM, Django said:

As I'm getting closer to pulling the trigger on a XH2S I'd just like to revisit the infamous chroma smoothing issues.

How big of a deal do you guys think this is? Like in practice when does it really bother you? It seems to me its only really noticeable when shooting foliage from a distance. But unless you're a nature landscape shooter I don't think you'll run into glaring issues.

In another thread someone just mentioned Fuji has the worst tonality and color separation. That and the over sharpening.

My reply was this is due to X-Trans. No AA filter and the chroma smoothing issues mentioned here.

But the upside is more detail and a much more filmic-like grain at high ISO due to less chroma noise.

I mean we tend to focus on the cons of X-Trans but there are pros as well, Fuji aren't crazy and stick with it for a reason.

That being said my main gripe is with the red channel. Reds are often pinkish, you can see it right there in the thumbnail below if you compare the red square to the ProRes RAW. The red is missing richness and has some pinkish hue:

Is there any solution for that? Like any color correction or LUT that fixes the red channel?

About the chroma smoothing issue, my only problem with the XT4, was that at a certain distance, on a face, the teeth and the white of the eyes tend to take the color of the skin, as Attila Bakos showed on his example with the red bricks joint. With the XH2S in ProRes HQ, it looks much better. And the Flog2 is absolutely amazing. Currently Flog2 isn't in Resolve so I'm using a CST with Gamut : REC 2020 and Gamma :  ArriLogC (because the gamma curve of ArriLog C and Flog2 is almost identical, but not the color space)

I had tried to tinker with a node in Resolve that acts only on the red channel to fix the chroma smoothing issue but no really interesting result. 

[D Verco]

On 2/9/2023 at 2:14 AM, Django said:

Would love to find some XH2S ProRes footage to test grade..

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/65ye9cnygs07gu0/AACXz9IPrvgmH_knwcX4_avQa?dl=0

 

I'd recommend the Gafpa Gear luts for Arri log conversion and a 250D lut.  

[Django]

4 hours ago, BrunoCH said:

About the chroma smoothing issue, my only problem with the XT4, was that at a certain distance, on a face, the teeth and the white of the eyes tend to take the color of the skin, as Attila Bakos showed on his example with the red bricks joint. With the XH2S in ProRes HQ, it looks much better.

So yeah poor colour separation when shooting at a certain distance. I've noticed colours get mushy in those scenarios. Your subject has to remain fairly close. I like what this one kid has achieved with his XH2S, the grade is a little extreme and stylised but really makes the colours pop in a pleasant way:

 

47 minutes ago, D Verco said:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/65ye9cnygs07gu0/AACXz9IPrvgmH_knwcX4_avQa?dl=0

 

I'd recommend the Gafpa Gear luts for Arri log conversion and a 250D lut.  

Thanks I do appreciate the effort but this type of footage (shaky blurry handheld trees and cars at dusk) is completely useless to me I'm afraid. Sorry, no offence.

Fortunately I have since found really nice 6K ProRes HQ footage of skin tone closeups which is what I was after.

FWIW I've been using Filmbox to grade it since it actually supports Flog2 (and has 250D stocks).

The demo is limited to 2K timeline which ends up rubbing off that over sharp digital edge. 

Results have been looking great so far.

[D Verco]

What are you going to be shooting? 

[Django]

People. I live in Paris, France. I do event, docu, run & gun, fashion, art, music etc.

While I shoot professionally with Sony/Canon.. I'm looking to go back to Fuji for more artistic, nostalgic projects.

Would also double up for street photography, travel and social media content. Basically sort of a lifestyle cam.

I'm kind of obsessed with 3:2 aspect ratio at the moment. Also I'd probably use the film simulations quite a bit.

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, Django said:

While I shoot professionally with Sony/Canon.. I'm looking to go back to Fuji for more artistic, nostalgic projects.

That's why I just bought a used Leica TL2. I didn't want to use my work tools for personal stuff and have been getting by with my phone for a few years now, but decided it's a bit too 'immediate' and easy.

So the oddball but very capable and underrated Leica plus what is almost certainly going to be an adapted M Mount lens, so manual focus only.

My second option was the OG X100 and it has been in an out of my shopping basket several times, but I've been there and done that so...

I also considered other new options such as the X100V, XE4 and GR3X, but in the end I decided they were all too new, too obvious and too easy.

[Django]

5 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

That's why I just bought a used Leica TL2. I didn't want to use my work tools for personal stuff and have been getting by with my phone for a few years now, but decided it's a bit too 'immediate' and easy.

So the oddball but very capable and underrated Leica plus what is almost certainly going to be an adapted M Mount lens, so manual focus only.

My second option was the OG X100 and it has been in an out of my shopping basket several times, but I've been there and done that so...

I also considered other new options such as the X100V, XE4 and GR3X, but in the end I decided they were all too new, too obvious and too easy.

Not familiar with that particular model but yeah whatever inspires/sparks creativity is always a good thing!

I'm a huge Leica fanboy, and my Leica M9P + 28mm Summicron is still my favourite when it comes to travel & street photography. The camera itself feels like a high-end pistol, and the rangefinder experience is so much fun (well to me at least, some people hate it).

An X100 series is definitely a camera I plan to own some day for the leaf shutter flash sync and built-in NDs. But its really more of a point & shoot than actual rangefinder.

Anyways, getting back to the XH2S it will be of course mainly a video tool but yeah similar concept of using something different than day in day out work tools! 

[BrunoCH]

7 hours ago, Django said:

So yeah poor colour separation when shooting at a certain distance. I've noticed colours get mushy in those scenarios. Your subject has to remain fairly close. I like what this one kid has achieved with his XH2S, the grade is a little extreme and stylised but really makes the colours pop in a pleasant way:

If you like this kind of grading, the Resolve FUJI LUT could be a good start.

[SRV1981]

4 hours ago, Django said:

People. I live in Paris, France. I do event, docu, run & gun, fashion, art, music etc.

While I shoot professionally with Sony/Canon.. I'm looking to go back to Fuji for more artistic, nostalgic projects.

Would also double up for street photography, travel and social media content. Basically sort of a lifestyle cam.

I'm kind of obsessed with 3:2 aspect ratio at the moment. Also I'd probably use the film simulations quite a bit.

Naive question, because I too like the nostalgia Fuji provides internally, but with cameras like s5ii and others providing internally baked LUTs - doesn’t that mean you could get equal or better creative looks with minimal post processing ?

[MrSMW]

You can have the best of both worlds I believe with your own custom LUT baked into your Jpeg and also have a clean raw file if you over-cooked the baking.

[Django]

1 hour ago, BrunoCH said:

If you like this kind of grading, the Resolve FUJI LUT could be a good start.

What do you mean by "Resolve FUJI LUT"? I use the official Fuji Flog/Flog2 LUTs to convert to Rec709.

I'm not aware of any particular Fuji LUTs in Resolve aside from the film stock emulation ones..?

 

57 minutes ago, SRV1981 said:

Naive question, because I too like the nostalgia Fuji provides internally, but with cameras like s5ii and others providing internally baked LUTs - doesn’t that mean you could get equal or better creative looks with minimal post processing ?

With cameras like S5II or FX3/FX30 you can indeed import custom LUTs which is great but not the same thing as Fuji film simulations. There are a bunch of parameters in Fuji film simulations that you can tweak and dial-in to create what they call "Fuji recipes". For stills that even includes film grain size, type etc. 

[BrunoCH]

1 hour ago, Django said:

What do you mean by "Resolve FUJI LUT"? I use the official Fuji Flog/Flog2 LUTs to convert to Rec709.

I'm not aware of any particular Fuji LUTs in Resolve aside from the film stock emulation ones..?

Yes I mean the Film look LUT from Resolve (stock emulation). I don't use the FUJI LUTs to delog the Flog, I prefer color management.

[D Verco]

It's actually pretty genius that Fuji used arri c-log and rec2020 standards with Flog-2

[Attila Bakos]

Remember we discussed earlier that X-H2s 6.2K ProRes RAW has a hot pixel at the exact same location for everyone?
I spent days to create an executable in C++ that removes that hot pixel from the DNG raw file created from ProRes RAW.
I was just about to post it here but then I noticed that this is not a hot pixel issue at all! All pixels in the same row right from the hot pixel are shifted towards the right.
See here:

It starts with the hot pixel, and it goes all the way to the right edge.

Or here (this is the right edge of an image, you don't see the hot pixel here, it's somewhere in the middle):

 

Atomos says it's Fuji's fault, and as usual, Fuji couldn't care less.

Atomos is also silent about the framerate bug I discovered. A new firmware was released just now and it's not fixed, it's not even listed in the known bugs.

Stuff like this makes me really disillusioned.