Step aside L Mount Alliance and...

[Video Hummus]

I only see LUMIX surviving if they implement PDAF on par with Olympus or better. That is the bottom line. It's 2022 and every camera out there worth a damn is track focusing fairly well (except Fujifilm).

I always wondered what exactly Leica contributed to the L-mount alliance except for the mount. They jointly (perhaps) help with development of the LUMIX PL lenses but beyond that Leica SL and SL2 internals are all from Panasonic with the color engine done by Leica.

Perhaps Leica agrees to invest more of their profit from their $7000 re-skinned S1R into the alliance going forward. 

[TomTheDP]

3 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

I only see LUMIX surviving if they implement PDAF on par with Olympus or better. That is the bottom line. It's 2022 and every camera out there worth a damn is track focusing fairly well (except Fujifilm).

I always wondered what exactly Leica contributed to the L-mount alliance except for the mount. They jointly (perhaps) help with development of the LUMIX PL lenses but beyond that Leica SL and SL2 internals are all from Panasonic with the color engine done by Leica.

Perhaps Leica agrees to invest more of their profit from their $7000 re-skinned S1R into the alliance going forward. 

They could try to cater more to the BM type market though there IBIS has huge appeal with vloggers.

[newfoundmass]

3 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

I only see LUMIX surviving if they implement PDAF on par with Olympus or better. That is the bottom line. It's 2022 and every camera out there worth a damn is track focusing fairly well (except Fujifilm).

It's survival depends on a lot of things, but I agree that it needs PDAF to grow and thrive. The market spoke long ago, and it demands PDAF. 

[IronFilm]

5 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

I always wondered what exactly Leica contributed to the L-mount alliance except for the mount. They jointly (perhaps) help with development of the LUMIX PL lenses but beyond that Leica SL and SL2 internals are all from Panasonic with the color engine done by Leica.

 

Lecia gives their branding to their L Mount Alliance, that adds a lot, and gives a lot of legitimacy to the L Mount as well. 

Imagine if Lecia wasn't part of it? Who'd want to put their trust into a brand new mount which only had cameras made by Panasonic?? (oh, yeah there is Sigma too, a lens company who is also making their weird cameras.... nah, that doesn't help)

Panasonic is massively better off thanks to having Lecia (and Sigma) part of the team, as they're in a tough fight against the giants that Nikon/Canon/Sony. (plus of course Fujifilm is providing strong competition a step down at APS-C, and a step  up at MF)

[stephen]

5 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

Perhaps Leica agrees to invest more of their profit from their $7000 re-skinned S1R into the alliance going forward. 

Yes it is most likely this, because developing new processor is very expensive. Most likely Panasonic sales are not enough to cover the cost. At the same time Leica depends on Panasonic for SL series. They will share the expenses, internals and maybe also large part of the firmware / software. On the market they occupy different niches  - Leica takes the premium high end segment and Panasonic mid to low end.

This all of course is just speculation.

[MrSMW]

6 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

Perhaps Leica agrees to invest more of their profit from their $7000 re-skinned S1R into the alliance going forward.

I have two of those things….but they cost less than 1/2 that for the pair 🤑

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, stephen said:

On the market they occupy different niches  - Leica takes the premium high end segment and Panasonic mid to low end.

Agree with the first half of the statement. But the Panasonic S1H camera, even though it is very good value, is a high end camera. (so too is the S1R, on par with other high end cameras such as Z7/D850/5DRS/a7Rmk3/etc)

[MrSMW]

Agreed. A combo of 3 of those are my workhorses and although prices of used S1R’s have dropped considerably (and I am not even sure if they still make it?) I’d have…and do have, these over any camera listed above or any Leica.

If I was a stills purist, the SL2 and S model could be really interesting, but nah, mid-high end gear I’d say. Certainly in terms of capability in which case both are high end.

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

I think that is to bring some "mojo" to Panasonic, expecting to cater some Leica diehards.

Leica sold (stillsellss?) rebranded Panasonic cameras. A lot of their L mount hardware is clearly Panasonic developed (like IBIS). Would not be surprised if a lot of the internals of the L-Mount Leicas are manufactured by Panasonic.

About the L-Mount Alliance: it is 4 years old and until now no one is able to ask if DFD only works with Panasonic lenses (like in the m43 world) or with Leicas and Sigmas too.

[MrSMW]

Well my L Mount buddies (buddy singular, possibly...)

Panasonic have announced they are no longer going to be manufacturing their lower end cameras that compete with smart phones. No surprises there.

Interpret that as you will but I read it as 'sub-M4/3'...but even then, for how much longer does even the latter have a future?

Plus they are actively collaborating on producing at least 'a' camera with Leica.

Well they have collaborated many times previously but I suspect this time, it really is going to be a collaboration, partly of survival.

I made a prediction over on the Leica forum that it will be two bodies; one S5 size and the other SL2 size.

I reckon they will go for a lower mp version and a higher mp version of each size, both hybrid. There would probably be one or two other differences other than just size.

Hopefully implementing PDAF.

The Leica version will probably cost more and they'll swing that by saying it has some 'extra sauce for photographers'...which it may well have just as the SL2 currently does over the S1R despite having the same sensor.

The Panny will be cheaper but can tout the fact that it will probably have some video thing it can do better.

Rangefinder?

I'd like to see one, but I suspect Leica will keep that format to themselves, but never say never.

Announced, end of this year/very early next, for 2023 availability?

I reckon they will be chasing just the pro market from this point onward. Or at least the well-heeled. Plus dentists, naturally.

PURE SPECULATION (re. the cameras) on my part other than the two announced facts on the Nikkei Report.

Too little, too late? Could be for me because unless the next gen system is:

A: Readily available by end of Feb 2023 and

B: Meets my min spec,

I'm going back to Nikon-land and the Z9 as it's the first camera/system to actually tick all my boxes with the only current compromises being initial cost and availability.

[webrunner5]

Like I said in a earlier post that I think Only high end stuff is going to survive. So what they are suggesting is no surprise to me. So yes, I think m4/3 is probably toast. It is going to be 5000 dollar stuff and above that makes it.

 

[MrSMW]

Yes, looks like the way things are going, somewhat sadly, but that is the way of the world.

If folks just are not buying compacts these days due to phones, then why make the things? 

There has to be a market.

The smaller the sensor, the bigger the hit.

The photography/camera market is still huge filled with both enthusiasts and pros and they/we will always need gear whether for fun or to earn a living.

Last chance saloon for L Mount with me now.

I love the gear and the results, but I know I am having to work harder in areas where I shouldn’t have to and making compromises I don’t want to make.

I’m not writing them off just yet and hope over the next 6 months, they will drop something I can work with or I’ll be biting that proverbial bullet.

[MrSMW]

8 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Last chance saloon for L Mount with me now.

Quoting myself 🤪

The thing is, if I was a pure photographer, I wouldn’t even be looking as the system 100% fulfills my needs. Easily.

If I was a pure videographer/filmmaker, ditto. It’s easily better than I am.

The issue I have is as a one man band hybrid shooter. It requires a very specific set of tools to do it properly and to date, no single camera or system has existed until the combo of Z9 + adapter + Tamron 35-150 came along.

Other than size & weight (a compromise but not a deal-breaker for me with the rest of the benefits far outweighing this minor ‘issue’) whatever the L Mount collective do next, they have extremely big boots to fill/equal, but I doubt, beat.

[currensheldon]

Panasonic makes my favorite cameras, by FAR. And they have my favorite IQ under $10k (except maaaybe the C70). And the best IBIS. I also love their f1.8 prime set. That's fantastic. 

But they do need to get something out this year (September/October) before I go all-in on buying a set of lenses. I had the S1H and loved it - still do. If they could give me an S1H II with some nice upgrades (mini XLR port to go with a 3.5mm jack, internal NDs, ProRes recording, a 12-bit HD/4k profile perhaps?), I'm all in for the next 3-4 years.

 

 

[webrunner5]

Sounds like you need a Blackmagic PK6 Pro or a Red Komodo.

[MrSMW]

4 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Sounds like you need a Blackmagic PK6 Pro or a Red Komodo.

Perhaps for dedicated filmmaking but not if the user requires any kind of hybrid use.

[leslie]

 

4 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Perhaps for dedicated filmmaking but not if the user requires any kind of hybrid use.

  

Its a 4k / 6k  cinema that can take photos, although i'm hesitant to call it a great photo camera.

As an owner and user of a p4k, the dedicated photo button is an overly  underwhelming experience.  I get no joy from using it for taking photos. As much as  a fan boy i am about the p4k, the dedicated photo button is just insipid. 

For me a photo doesn't seem to be taken until after i start to release pressure on the button  and after a second i get a little icon on the screen informing me that yes a photo was taken. there seems to be a large disconnect between pressing the button and taking a photo which makes me wonder if i took a photo or not then i mess around checking to make sure, which isn't conducive to a good photo or video session .

I have given it some thought and i 'm thinking i should just trust the camera and try to stop pressing the photo button through the bottom chassis of the p4k.

Next time the races are on at carnell raceway i intend to take the camera and try some panning shots to see if the disconnect is as bad as it feels. Perhaps its just in my mind. Theres only one way to find out I'm thinking. 

 

[MrSMW]

41 minutes ago, leslie said:

Its a 4k / 6k  cinema that can take photos, although i'm hesitant to call it a great photo camera.

That’s what I mean as in just because it can, in a pinch, doesn’t mean you would all the time.

I have given a lot of thought as to whether I could just film a job in it’s entirety, make the production…and then pull off the stills.

4k, yes, it can be done…but with limited results. I know, I have tried!

6k, also yes…but even more limited for me as I could no longer shoot 50p and though it produced a bigger DNG still, it lacked some detail compared to the 4K.

8k, now we’re talking…but would I for a full job?

As a ‘one off’, sure I would like to give that a go, but I am 50% a photographer so wish to keep practicing the art of capturing a moment rather than grabbing it from some footage.

That’s why these video-centric cameras that can shoot stills don’t interest me…though I did look at the 6k Pro as dedicated a video tool.

My need is genuine hybrid capability in the same unit, ‘equally’ as good, video and stills. Not just output, but ease of use/control/capture.

[currensheldon]

The experience of shooting is important to me and I do not like shooting with the Pocket 4k or 6k. Battery life is a pain, ergonomics are awful, don't like EF mount, want IBIS, prefer full-frame, like Panasonic's IQ more, etc. Red Komodo has a lot of the same issues and its IQ is wayyyy below other Red cameras.

I'm sure Panasonic will come out with something soon, so fine with waiting.

[MrSMW]

Well after a lot of humming and hawwing, I've decided to remain with L Mount for 2023 at least.

I've looked at every single possible option and nothing quite 'works' for me...

I've used bits and pieces from Sony before and it's probably the system that most meets my requirements...but it's nearly 17k to purchase (less what I'd get for the total sale of my L Mount gear which is around 7.5-8k trade) which is a big investment, ie, spend around 10k to get what exactly?

An incremental 'improvement' in certain areas. None in some and quite a bit in another (AF) and really it's only the latter where there is any significant/worthwhile change. But 10k cost to change? For my needs, maybe not...

Fuji. I had one in da house. An XH2. I came from Fuji and I love Fuji gear but same question and that is what do I stand to gain and what do I stand to lose? I didn't shoot a single frame before returning it.

That one would be a 12.5k less 7.5 so 5k to change. For what? Possibly slightly nicer colour science...?? Smaller, lighter and slightly more efficient set up but otherwise...

Nikon? Love the Z9 as a camera, but the rest doesn't quite work so...

Canon? Too many questions for me, too much fudging, too expensive. (More than the Sony set up).

There just isn't anything else...for my needs so I re-evaluated L Mount.

I never completely gave up on it anyway and have always stated I hoped they might bring something new out over the Winter '22-'23 period that fits my needs better camera wise...and that may still happen. Or not. Or some time in '23...

But I have decided to keep all 4 bodies that I have, sell some 'old' lenses and get some new ones and generally just re-purpose some elements of kit and practice based on my need/use case.

So in that regard, I'm going to carry on with 4 bodies and not flip to the 3 that I would prefer and one day hope to.

I could move to 3 with L Mount, but it doesn't quite work so I'll stick with 4; a pair of S1R's, an S1H and an S5.

Selling all the f2/f2.8 primes from Sigma and buying Sigma f1.4's instead. The; 20mm, 35mm and 85mm specifically. One area where I have felt that I have made some sacrifices (glass-wise) over the last couple of years is in low-light capability. This switch of lenses will improve that capability.

These 3 primes will be my workhorses mostly for stills ie, will only be used with the S1R's which themselves will carry on with 'stills only' duty other than a few bits of handheld 5k video during ceremonies and speeches. I LOVE the 5k that the S1R produces but I wish it was 50p...

The S1H will continue in the role of primary video camera, mostly handheld. It's just so good. Size, weight, ergos, rear screen, quality of output and for '23 it's getting a new companion. The Sigma 28-70mm f2.8 has been my main workhorse here and that is going to continue, but as my outdoor combo. My new indoor combo is going to be the Sigma 16-28mm f2.8. Because I shoot 4k 50p, these give me; 24-42mm indoor and 42-105mm outdoor in FF terms which is bang on for my needs.

That leaves the S5. That one is being paired up with the Sigma APSC only, 18-50mm f2.8 and going to live on a DJI RS3 gimbal. 

I still need something longer than the Panasonic 24-105mm f4 so hoping Sigma might bring out a more compact (a la 16-28 and 28-70) 70-200mm f2.8 next year and if so, I'll trade for that.

And the cost? Nada. Or thereabouts... The sale of some existing lenses and a few other bits and bobs covers the cost of the 4 new lenses and gimbal so I'm pretty much covered. 

Sometimes the grass just isn't greener.