Sony FX3 vs. Canon R6 for Video

[webrunner5]

You do realize this guy has been on here since 2016. I think this person is just bullshitting us to bullshit us. 

[SRV1981]

18 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

You do realize this guy has been on here since 2016. I think this person is just bullshitting us to bullshit us. 

If you're referring to me - that is both unnecessary and rude, bullying if you will.  Commenting on a thread isn't an opt-out; but an opt-in.  Feel free to not respond to me in the future.

[Django]

22 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

You do realize this guy has been on here since 2016. I think this person is just bullshitting us to bullshit us. 

I thought so too at first (its not that we're mean spirited OP, but there have been similar trolls before) but a quick check in post history and it seems consistent:

Quote

I've included a poll.  I am looking to get better video/photos SOOC.  I'm a full-time teacher and don't have the time/space to learn colorgrading or even colorgrade much more than basic adjustments.  I've enjoyed my a7III over my previous XT4.  That said the skin tones and color just don't cut it for me.  Looking for Advice.

That said, it also showcases a pattern.. from Sony to Fuji.. To Canon.. and now back to Sony..and Fuji? All in the span of about a year?!

I mean these things do happen but have to ask don't you get tired of switching systems so often? seems like endless tail chasing and money drain. I don't wanna beat a dead horse but perhaps its time indeed to actually learn a bit about shooting & colorgrading! I really don't think the problem is with your cameras. You still haven't told us what your lens situation is either by the way ?

[SRV1981]

2 minutes ago, Django said:

I thought so too at first (its not that we're mean spirited OP, but there have been similar trolls before) but a quick check in post history and it seems consistent:

That said, it also showcases a pattern.. from Sony to Fuji.. To Canon.. and now back to Sony..and Fuji? All in the span of about a year?!

I mean these things do happen but have to ask don't you get tired of switching systems so often? seems like endless tail chasing and money drain. I don't wanna beat a dead horse but perhaps its time indeed to actually learn a bit about shooting & colorgrading! I really don't think the problem is with your cameras. You still haven't told us what your lens situation is either by the way ?

I get it but I am just a Type-A overthinker and have consistently responded thankfully.  

Yes you're right the overthinking has led to moving from system to system over about 6 years.  I have learned why and learn each time and typically come here when I am in need of help because of the good advice and healthy discourse.  

For example,  I got an XT-2 when I was more focused on video and photography for sports; quickly I learned ISO performance and AF tracking was important - so a7ii; and then the photos got better but the skin tones were really difficult to make look good....I believe I may have gotten too excited by reviews and pulled the trigger on an R6...now I am convinced that I will need to shoot more clog3 with the R6 and figure out how comfortable I am improving in Resolve and if it works for photography etc.  I'm learning now that what some told me earlier - buy separate for photo and video - is what I'm leaning toward.  

 

Learning and growing folks - from a type-A personality (can't change that).  Thanks for the dialogue and advice thus far!

[mercer]

And still no mention of lenses...

Haha.

Hey, I've been there. I spent a couple years chasing an image. I went from a t2i to an eos-m to an nx500 to a G7 to a BMMCC...

Damn, I forget... I know there was a couple Sony cameras in there... some point and shoots... an FZ2500...

Eventually, I forked up the dough for an open box 5D Mark III, installed Magic Lantern Raw and never looked back. I've been curious about other cameras, but nothing in my price range has come even close. Right now I'm really curious about the Sigma FP and the S5. The FP for its raw capabilities, its small size and a bump in resolution. The S5 for IBIS run and gun, B&W with 14 stops of DR.

I'll probably just go forward with my 5D... I love the IQ, I already own it and KNOW it, and chasing specifics costs too much money for a hobby.

All that said... knowing what I know now... don't get the FX3. There's no reason why you can't get comparable images with the R6. I wouldn't even bother shooting Log right now. Practice with it and practice grading but just use Neutral Profile dialed down with the ProLost Flat settings... then make a couple simple adjustments in your NLE of choice... contrast and saturation... maybe add some Tint for style and move on.

If you're intent on buying a new camera... then get either an M50 Mark II or a GH5ii. The GH5 is a workhorse camera with plenty of headroom to manipulate the footage. Search Rowe Films on YouTube or Vimeo for examples of what can be accomplished.

The point is... it seems like you're chasing a pot of gold. I know, I've been there. I found mine, but when I did, everybody had moved on from it and I questioned my purchase a bunch of times... do I need 4K... should I have IBIS... do I need better AF.

It's all nonsense. The fact is this... all cameras under $4500 kinda suck in one way or another. So you either accept their faults based on other strengths (ibis and AF) and learn to bend the image a little or spend some money and get something more expensive... but then you won't have the convenience of the small size of hybrid cameras... and more expensive cameras aren't any easier to operate... they're just going to give you a sturdier footing.

[SRV1981]

12 minutes ago, mercer said:

And still no mention of lenses...

Haha.

Hey, I've been there. I spent a couple years chasing an image. I went from a t2i to an eos-m to an nx500 to a G7 to a BMMCC...

Damn, I forget... I know there was a couple Sony cameras in there... some point and shoots... an FZ2500...

Eventually, I forked up the dough for an open box 5D Mark III, installed Magic Lantern Raw and never looked back. I've been curious about other cameras, but nothing in my price range has come even close. Right now I'm really curious about the Sigma FP and the S5. The FP for its raw capabilities, its small size and a bump in resolution. The S5 for IBIS run and gun, B&W with 14 stops of DR.

I'll probably just go forward with my 5D... I love the IQ, I already own it and KNOW it, and chasing specifics costs too much money for a hobby.

All that said... knowing what I know now... don't get the FX3. There's no reason why you can't get comparable images with the R6. I wouldn't even bother shooting Log right now. Practice with it and practice grading but just use Neutral Profile dialed down with the ProLost Flat settings... then make a couple simple adjustments in your NLE of choice... contrast and saturation... maybe add some Tint for style and move on.

If you're intent on buying a new camera... then get either an M50 Mark II or a GH5ii. The GH5 is a workhorse camera with plenty of headroom to manipulate the footage. Search Rowe Films on YouTube or Vimeo for examples of what can be accomplished.

The point is... it seems like you're chasing a pot of gold. I know, I've been there. I found mine, but when I did, everybody had moved on from it and I questioned my purchase a bunch of times... do I need 4K... should I have IBIS... do I need better AF.

It's all nonsense. The fact is this... all cameras under $4500 kinda suck in one way or another. So you either accept their faults based on other strengths (ibis and AF) and learn to bend the image a little or spend some money and get something more expensive... but then you won't have the convenience of the small size of hybrid cameras... and more expensive cameras aren't any easier to operate... they're just going to give you a sturdier footing.

Sigma 70-700 2.8

tamron 35 1.8

 

Thanks! Sounds like you get the overthinking. And that’s the plan - shoot with this for a bit and continue to improve grading etc and find a workflow. Some of the samples I shared the creators mentioned just dokng some adjustments then dropping a rec-709 lut and maybe a stylized on or further adjustments but didn’t take long. 

[webrunner5]

2 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

If you're referring to me - that is both unnecessary and rude, bullying if you will.  Commenting on a thread isn't an opt-out; but an opt-in.  Feel free to not respond to me in the future.

 You have ZERO clue what you want. You have Not listened to Anyone one here. If you are asking a question as a teacher you say you are you ought to know to be quite and listen to the answer, be polite and say thanks. Hell no you can't even begin to do that.  You think you know more than we do. Why the hell even bother then.

Every video you post is a crap example. Yeah, I am rude because I tell it like it is instead of beating around the bush.

[webrunner5]

You can downvote me all day, just proves how ignorant you really are.

[SRV1981]

Hey man, not sure what your deal is but I’m just discussing cameras and filming. Have a good one. 

[webrunner5]

I will leave you alone and not comment. I will just ignore this thread, thank god.

[kye]

@SRV1981 

Just catching up on this thread and after I had 4 of your posts quoted, I figured I'd just tag you instead.

Lots to talk about here, but I think you're just thinking about things wrong.  Here's how I suggest you proceed.

Cameras do matter.
The problem is that most discussions are very polarised either saying they don't matter at all, or they are the only thing that matters.  Neither of these perspectives is true, and more importantly, neither is useful.
When people talk about WHY cameras matter, they normally discuss the image, but that's actually not the best way of thinking about them either.  

The best way to think about cameras is that each camera is a combination of dozens of individual features and functions and attributes.  Does it have IBIS? How long does the battery last? How good are the internal preamps for audio?  Does it have a punch-in feature to focus and is that feature available while recording? How big is it and how much does it weigh?  What is the lens mount?  How much DR does it have?  What codecs does it offer?  etc etc.

Buying a camera is about getting the best compromise across all the features that matter to you.  You might have a camera that recorded a spectacular image, was small and portable, had all the features of a cinema camera, but if the battery life was 15 minutes then it's completely out of the running based on its one fatal flaw.
We should be evaluating cameras based on their biggest weakness for how we shoot, not based on their best feature.

Skills matter more.
The cameras you're talking about are capable of world-class images, including your Canon that you already own.  Please don't take this the wrong way, but the problem you're experiencing is that you aren't capable of world-class images and so that's what's letting you down.  I'm also not capable of world-class images, far from it in fact, but I'm perhaps down that path a little further than you are.  

Video is hard and the path to getting great results is difficult.

You're not lighting your videos, and you're not designing the sets and locations either.  This makes is harder for you than for people who make sets, light them, and then point the camera at them.  I also shoot in completely uncontrolled conditions without permission to be where I am (stealth mode as you call it) so size and appearance also matter to me.  Unfortunately, not lighting and designing sets makes it harder still to get the kind of images you want to make.

Stop spending money on equipment and start spending time to learn.
I mean this literally - don't spend another dollar on equipment.  Not one.  Your current equipment, your Canon and whatever lenses you have (even if it's just the kit lens) is good enough.  By far the biggest limitation in what you're doing currently is your lack of skill.  So stop spending money and start spending time.

This is actually great news for you.  IIRC you said that you're a teacher, and I'm assuming you're not getting paid a large hourly rate, so you probably have far more time than you have money to invest.  

Here's what I suggest - try and replicate other peoples work.

Find a video shot on the same camera as you have, find the nicest shot in it, then try to replicate that shot.  Alternatively, you could start with a shot from that video that's the most accessible (eg, a shot of someone standing outside during the day) and replicate that.  Do it again with another shot.  Do it again and again.

You're likely to encounter shots where you're not sure how to replicate it and your attempts to do so fail.  In these situations you need to experiment.  Just think of every step of the process and think "what if I did this differently".  Like, when shooting, what if I expose a little darker or lighter, what if I use a larger aperture or smaller one, what if I use one camera profile or another.  What if in Resolve I use this control instead of that control.  What if I use this LUT instead of that LUT.  What if I use a Colour Space Transform instead of a LUT.  What if I do it manually using this control instead of that control.

Being able to get a good shot is luck.  Being able to get good shots reliably requires skill.  That skill requires knowing what to do in each situation and why you would do it.  This requires you to essentially explore everything it's possible to do and learn what each option does and which ones work in which situations.  Unfortunately this isn't something that can be bought, and it can't even really be taught, it just comes with experience.

This sounds daunting, but think about it like this.  If you'd have started this 6 years ago, you'd have 6 years of experience, when currently, it sounds like you don't really have much at all (apart from looking at videos and buying cameras).

[IronFilm]

17 hours ago, Django said:

That said, it also showcases a pattern.. from Sony to Fuji.. To Canon.. and now back to Sony..and Fuji? All in the span of about a year?!

I mean these things do happen but have to ask don't you get tired of switching systems so often? seems like endless tail chasing and money drain. I don't wanna beat a dead horse but perhaps its time indeed to actually learn a bit about shooting & colorgrading! I really don't think the problem is with your cameras. You still haven't told us what your lens situation is either by the way ?

That's exactly my point I made earlier, a person could buy what (they think) is "the best" mirrorless such as the a7Smk3/FX3, but within a couple of years the X-T5 / S1Hmk2 / Z90 / etc get release and you're feeling you're "missing out" (you're not!), sucking you into a never ending cycle of "upgrades. 

[ade towell]

Yes to the OP this is a proper case of chasing your tail - the R6 you already have is capable of creating similar to the examples you have shown - with all respect you just need to learn how to use it properly (I include myself in this). Together with lens choice and grading, use of light and framing are 2 major factors in creating beautiful images  - these skills can be learnt but a new camera won't help

[IronFilm]

18 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

I'm learning now that what some told me earlier - buy separate for photo and video - is what I'm leaning toward.  

Yeah it is not such a crazy idea to get a secondhand Nikon D500 for photography and a Blackmagic Pocket for filming with. 

The total cost would still be less than many of the "top" hybrid mirrorless! 

[IronFilm]

19 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

Bruh this looks pretty damn good.

aww thanks, was a very early film! I guess it's too easy for me to just see the flaws in it. Was shot under difficult conditions, I shudder for instance now to think about how I did the sound! haha

Had my girlfriend (even less experience than I!) holding the boom pole, while the audio got recorded directly into the FS700 😕

Maybe I need to go even further back... to find something properly horrible, here is my first ever short film I shot! (with a whopping 22 views so far! hahaha)

 

But for this, I didn't have any fancy equipment like the latest Sony cine camera and a full set of Zeiss lenses. (which the other film I shared just before was shot with)

Nope, was shot with a Panasonic GH1! And a monopod and sh*tty photography tripod. (no proper videography tripod back then for me) Can't quite remember what lenses I shot it on, but am pretty sure it was a Nikon 50mm f1.8D and a Vivitar 28-70mm f3.5-4.5, both without a speedbooster and just used directly with a pain Nikon F to MFT adapter. (maybe I used my Nikon 18-55mm kit  lenses as well, not sure, quite possible. Was the only mildly "wide-ish" option I had for MFT!!)

My girlfriend was my "1st AC" (although, that was a beyond lofty title for her role in reality!).

Audio was recorded on the director's Zoom H4n.

[SRV1981]

On 6/4/2022 at 1:42 AM, kye said:

@SRV1981 

Just catching up on this thread and after I had 4 of your posts quoted, I figured I'd just tag you instead.

Lots to talk about here, but I think you're just thinking about things wrong.  Here's how I suggest you proceed.

Cameras do matter.
The problem is that most discussions are very polarised either saying they don't matter at all, or they are the only thing that matters.  Neither of these perspectives is true, and more importantly, neither is useful.
When people talk about WHY cameras matter, they normally discuss the image, but that's actually not the best way of thinking about them either.  

The best way to think about cameras is that each camera is a combination of dozens of individual features and functions and attributes.  Does it have IBIS? How long does the battery last? How good are the internal preamps for audio?  Does it have a punch-in feature to focus and is that feature available while recording? How big is it and how much does it weigh?  What is the lens mount?  How much DR does it have?  What codecs does it offer?  etc etc.

Buying a camera is about getting the best compromise across all the features that matter to you.  You might have a camera that recorded a spectacular image, was small and portable, had all the features of a cinema camera, but if the battery life was 15 minutes then it's completely out of the running based on its one fatal flaw.
We should be evaluating cameras based on their biggest weakness for how we shoot, not based on their best feature.

Skills matter more.
The cameras you're talking about are capable of world-class images, including your Canon that you already own.  Please don't take this the wrong way, but the problem you're experiencing is that you aren't capable of world-class images and so that's what's letting you down.  I'm also not capable of world-class images, far from it in fact, but I'm perhaps down that path a little further than you are.  

Video is hard and the path to getting great results is difficult.

You're not lighting your videos, and you're not designing the sets and locations either.  This makes is harder for you than for people who make sets, light them, and then point the camera at them.  I also shoot in completely uncontrolled conditions without permission to be where I am (stealth mode as you call it) so size and appearance also matter to me.  Unfortunately, not lighting and designing sets makes it harder still to get the kind of images you want to make.

Stop spending money on equipment and start spending time to learn.
I mean this literally - don't spend another dollar on equipment.  Not one.  Your current equipment, your Canon and whatever lenses you have (even if it's just the kit lens) is good enough.  By far the biggest limitation in what you're doing currently is your lack of skill.  So stop spending money and start spending time.

This is actually great news for you.  IIRC you said that you're a teacher, and I'm assuming you're not getting paid a large hourly rate, so you probably have far more time than you have money to invest.  

Here's what I suggest - try and replicate other peoples work.

Find a video shot on the same camera as you have, find the nicest shot in it, then try to replicate that shot.  Alternatively, you could start with a shot from that video that's the most accessible (eg, a shot of someone standing outside during the day) and replicate that.  Do it again with another shot.  Do it again and again.

You're likely to encounter shots where you're not sure how to replicate it and your attempts to do so fail.  In these situations you need to experiment.  Just think of every step of the process and think "what if I did this differently".  Like, when shooting, what if I expose a little darker or lighter, what if I use a larger aperture or smaller one, what if I use one camera profile or another.  What if in Resolve I use this control instead of that control.  What if I use this LUT instead of that LUT.  What if I use a Colour Space Transform instead of a LUT.  What if I do it manually using this control instead of that control.

Being able to get a good shot is luck.  Being able to get good shots reliably requires skill.  That skill requires knowing what to do in each situation and why you would do it.  This requires you to essentially explore everything it's possible to do and learn what each option does and which ones work in which situations.  Unfortunately this isn't something that can be bought, and it can't even really be taught, it just comes with experience.

This sounds daunting, but think about it like this.  If you'd have started this 6 years ago, you'd have 6 years of experience, when currently, it sounds like you don't really have much at all (apart from looking at videos and buying cameras).

It is CERTAINLY daunting, that said - I agree with you and the general advice given.  I downloaded Resolve 18 and look forward to watching tutorials and giving it a go.  I'll look to start off with basic LUT/light grading and may or may not ever make it to adding nodes for masking etc.  For me and my hobby/enthusiasm - less is more.  Can't argue with skill - it's important in all areas of work, well said.

On 6/4/2022 at 6:06 AM, IronFilm said:

That's exactly my point I made earlier, a person could buy what (they think) is "the best" mirrorless such as the a7Smk3/FX3, but within a couple of years the X-T5 / S1Hmk2 / Z90 / etc get release and you're feeling you're "missing out" (you're not!), sucking you into a never ending cycle of "upgrades. 

This is beyond true for myself and others just reading forums and watching videos!  This is more true for amateurs who buy equipment thinking they'll be able to replicate an image without knowing how that image was created and realizing that both they need more technical skill AND may need a different camera system to get a good enough image with minimal work.

On 6/4/2022 at 6:21 AM, ade towell said:

Yes to the OP this is a proper case of chasing your tail - the R6 you already have is capable of creating similar to the examples you have shown - with all respect you just need to learn how to use it properly (I include myself in this). Together with lens choice and grading, use of light and framing are 2 major factors in creating beautiful images  - these skills can be learnt but a new camera won't help

well said!

On 6/4/2022 at 6:22 AM, IronFilm said:

Yeah it is not such a crazy idea to get a secondhand Nikon D500 for photography and a Blackmagic Pocket for filming with. 

The total cost would still be less than many of the "top" hybrid mirrorless! 

That is what I am thinking.  Either keep the R6 or if I do choose to move to an FX3/AS7III I can pair it with a cheap used Nikon for sports photography.  This is where I'm leaning.  I do, however, like the Fuji x100v though it wouldn't help for sports but it's okay because I'm not doing it for paid work - more home/personal stuff.

On 6/4/2022 at 6:35 AM, IronFilm said:

aww thanks, was a very early film! I guess it's too easy for me to just see the flaws in it. Was shot under difficult conditions, I shudder for instance now to think about how I did the sound! haha

Had my girlfriend (even less experience than I!) holding the boom pole, while the audio got recorded directly into the FS700 😕

Maybe I need to go even further back... to find something properly horrible, here is my first ever short film I shot! (with a whopping 22 views so far! hahaha)

 

But for this, I didn't have any fancy equipment like the latest Sony cine camera and a full set of Zeiss lenses. (which the other film I shared just before was shot with)

Nope, was shot with a Panasonic GH1! And a monopod and sh*tty photography tripod. (no proper videography tripod back then for me) Can't quite remember what lenses I shot it on, but am pretty sure it was a Nikon 50mm f1.8D and a Vivitar 28-70mm f3.5-4.5, both without a speedbooster and just used directly with a pain Nikon F to MFT adapter. (maybe I used my Nikon 18-55mm kit  lenses as well, not sure, quite possible. Was the only mildly "wide-ish" option I had for MFT!!)

My girlfriend was my "1st AC" (although, that was a beyond lofty title for her role in reality!).

Audio was recorded on the director's Zoom H4n.

Wow pretty cool!  I like the narrative here and goes to show audio is so important!  Well done!

[IronFilm]

30 minutes ago, SRV1981 said:

if I do choose to move to an FX3/AS7III I can pair it with a cheap used Nikon for sports photography.  

The Nikon D500 is arguably still today "the best" a person can get for sports photography (if on a budget that can't afford the likes of a D6/D5/etc).
 

[PannySVHS]

I got a S1, but want the swivel screen from the S5 but not its micro Hdmi. The swivel screen on my Gx85 feels totally fine to me. On the S1 the Evf is often in the way when filming low angles and it feels "grumpy":) and scratchy to move. So I can relate to @SRV1981 's ongoing search. All I want is a S5 with full hdmi. I just dont enjoy it so much to use my S1 as my take everywhere camera unfortunately.

[SRV1981]

25 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

I got a S1, but want the swivel screen from the S5 but not its micro Hdmi. The swivel screen on my Gx85 feels totally fine to me. On the S1 the Evf is often in the way when filming low angles and it feels "grumpy":) and scratchy to move. So I can relate to @SRV1981 's ongoing search. All I want is a S5 with full hdmi. I just dont enjoy it so much to use my S1 as my take everywhere camera unfortunately.

Does the fx3 have full hdmi? Maybe worth a look as I think the image is equal if not better in shadows

[TomTheDP]

2 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

Does the fx3 have full hdmi? Maybe worth a look as I think the image is equal if not better in shadows

The FX3 does have full hdmi. The S1 has more dynamic range though overall when shooting in 24-30p.