Sony FX3 vs. Canon R6 for Video

[Gregormannschaft]

3 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

Does the fx3 have full hdmi? Maybe worth a look as I think the image is equal if not better in shadows

The S1 can also be found for close to 1100 to 1200 versus 4600€ for the FX3. You can’t beat the S series for bang for buck.

Here are a couple of videos a friend and I shot last year on the S5 and S1:

 

[kye]

16 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

This is beyond true for myself and others just reading forums and watching videos!  This is more true for amateurs who buy equipment thinking they'll be able to replicate an image without knowing how that image was created and realizing that both they need more technical skill AND may need a different camera system to get a good enough image with minimal work.

The other major factor for amateurs is the hidden factor of editing.

When you're watching a video on YT, especially about a camera (rather than what the camera is pointed at), you're probably looking at cherry-picked shots.  Regardless of if a video is shot outside in available light, is indoor but naturally lit, or completely staged including lighting, the finished video you're watching probably only contains the best shots that the person captured.

If you don't know this, then you're going to pick up a camera, point it at things, and then expect to be able to make every shot you take as good as the best-of-the-best shots that have been posted online.  It would be a dirty big secret only it's not a secret at all, it's just that amateurs don't know about it.

Are you familiar with shooting ratios?

[hyalinejim]

@kye is absolutely right and I get nervous whenever I'm shooting for somebody else and have to hand over all my footage because they'll see all the shit shots that normally never see the light of day!

[SRV1981]

3 hours ago, kye said:

The other major factor for amateurs is the hidden factor of editing.

When you're watching a video on YT, especially about a camera (rather than what the camera is pointed at), you're probably looking at cherry-picked shots.  Regardless of if a video is shot outside in available light, is indoor but naturally lit, or completely staged including lighting, the finished video you're watching probably only contains the best shots that the person captured.

If you don't know this, then you're going to pick up a camera, point it at things, and then expect to be able to make every shot you take as good as the best-of-the-best shots that have been posted online.  It would be a dirty big secret only it's not a secret at all, it's just that amateurs don't know about it.

Are you familiar with shooting ratios?

Yes - makes sense. We never see the images that looked like shit. Thus further selling the myth of buying equipment for a specific image.  A little disappointing but it’s true. 

[kye]

20 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

Yes - makes sense. We never see the images that looked like shit. Thus further selling the myth of buying equipment for a specific image.  A little disappointing but it’s true. 

Another thing that's fascinating, and completely invisible, is that the way that cameras are used between YT and professional sets is fundamentally and completely different.  

Ironically, the professional process where a camera is properly exposed and white-balanced makes everything really simple and straight-forward in post, not only being super easy to grade an enormous amount of content to look consistent and also amazing.  This is compared to the haphazard way that YT and other solo film-makers operate with WB and exposure all over the place, meaning so much extra work is required in post.

The first time I heard a professional colourist take me through their process was a revelation because it made the whole thing radically simple, and with a properly shot feature a colourist can set everything up properly and have everything just fall into place with only minor tweaks required.  One senior colourist mentioned that they like to have a viewing with the Director a few days after they have received the footage - this is when colour grading a feature with literally thousands of individual shots.  You simply cannot do that if things aren't done in a standardised and repeatable way.  Of course, that standard way also makes sure that each image is captured at the absolute sweet-spot of the camera/codec so not only are the results consistent but they're of the highest quality.

For each hour you spend watching YT videos on film-making, you're going to need to spend another two hours later on un-learning the complete crap that they've been feeding you.  

[SRV1981]

2 hours ago, kye said:

Another thing that's fascinating, and completely invisible, is that the way that cameras are used between YT and professional sets is fundamentally and completely different.  

Ironically, the professional process where a camera is properly exposed and white-balanced makes everything really simple and straight-forward in post, not only being super easy to grade an enormous amount of content to look consistent and also amazing.  This is compared to the haphazard way that YT and other solo film-makers operate with WB and exposure all over the place, meaning so much extra work is required in post.

The first time I heard a professional colourist take me through their process was a revelation because it made the whole thing radically simple, and with a properly shot feature a colourist can set everything up properly and have everything just fall into place with only minor tweaks required.  One senior colourist mentioned that they like to have a viewing with the Director a few days after they have received the footage - this is when colour grading a feature with literally thousands of individual shots.  You simply cannot do that if things aren't done in a standardised and repeatable way.  Of course, that standard way also makes sure that each image is captured at the absolute sweet-spot of the camera/codec so not only are the results consistent but they're of the highest quality.

For each hour you spend watching YT videos on film-making, you're going to need to spend another two hours later on un-learning the complete crap that they've been feeding you.  

Yea that makes a ton of sense what you said earlier in.  However, if you’re going to be filming footage that isn’t properly lit and only using available light - then it would stand to reason that finding people who have tutorials on resolve that shoot similarly would be your best bet. A professional colourist may not be the best help for someone making videos with ambient light and grading on a MacBook with an a7s iii lol. 

[IronFilm]

6 hours ago, kye said:

Another thing that's fascinating, and completely invisible, is that the way that cameras are used between YT and professional sets is fundamentally and completely different.  

Ironically, the professional process where a camera is properly exposed and white-balanced makes everything really simple and straight-forward in post, not only being super easy to grade an enormous amount of content to look consistent and also amazing.  This is compared to the haphazard way that YT and other solo film-makers operate with WB and exposure all over the place, meaning so much extra work is required in post.

The first time I heard a professional colourist take me through their process was a revelation because it made the whole thing radically simple, and with a properly shot feature a colourist can set everything up properly and have everything just fall into place with only minor tweaks required.  One senior colourist mentioned that they like to have a viewing with the Director a few days after they have received the footage - this is when colour grading a feature with literally thousands of individual shots.  You simply cannot do that if things aren't done in a standardised and repeatable way.  Of course, that standard way also makes sure that each image is captured at the absolute sweet-spot of the camera/codec so not only are the results consistent but they're of the highest quality.

For each hour you spend watching YT videos on film-making, you're going to need to spend another two hours later on un-learning the complete crap that they've been feeding you.  

Yup, people's actions during a shoot are very different when the post production process will be using people who are charging $100+/hr vs "someone is going to do it for free". 

You don't have such a haphazard approach to filming.

[MrSMW]

I think you can learn something from lot’s of different sources actually whether that be Hollywood grade colorist or more humble YouToober.

I learn stuff I implement into my work all the time from multi million dollar movies and from some guy who shot some shit in his back yard with a crew of himself and a budget of jack all.

The main thing is long as you are learning something…

[SRV1981]

30 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

I think you can learn something from lot’s of different sources actually whether that be Hollywood grade colorist or more humble YouToober.

I learn stuff I implement into my work all the time from multi million dollar movies and from some guy who shot some shit in his back yard with a crew of himself and a budget of jack all.

The main thing is long as you are learning something…

This

[kye]

17 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

Yea that makes a ton of sense what you said earlier in.  However, if you’re going to be filming footage that isn’t properly lit and only using available light - then it would stand to reason that finding people who have tutorials on resolve that shoot similarly would be your best bet. A professional colourist may not be the best help for someone making videos with ambient light and grading on a MacBook with an a7s iii lol. 

I'm confused - someone that has done something professionally for decades isn't the best choice and a millennial with a laptop is?

There are lots of films shot in less-than-ideal conditions you know, and any very seasoned colourist will have colour corrected more projects in those situations that the laptop YT colourist will have graded any type of project.

Back in the days of film, it was common to shoot a very low-budget film on the remainders of film reels that had been bought for a movie or TV show but never used.  Sometimes you could buy these cheap from a studio for example.  The problem is that when it came time to edit your film, you had reels of film that were different brands, ages, processes, and had been treated differently (the roll that went out into the desert for a month shooting a Bedouin doco won't be as well cared for as one that was always kept in a fridge in a studio).
Obviously these colourists wouldn't be able to make the film a visual masterpiece, especially considering the project had a low budget to begin with and they were probably only brought in when the cut was deemed unwatchable due to all the colour casts etc.  

So someone who has experience doing this kind of work, and maybe archival restoration and other challenging work, doesn't know as much about grading than someone who waves a camera around and grades on a laptop?

Well, ok, if I insist.  I am that person.  I shoot uncontrolled scenes, in available lighting, and grade on a MBP.  You will now value my advice and wisdom more than a colourist with 50 years of experience.  Go back and re-read all my comments and take in the incredible wisdom I have given you.

11 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I think you can learn something from lot’s of different sources actually whether that be Hollywood grade colorist or more humble YouToober.

I learn stuff I implement into my work all the time from multi million dollar movies and from some guy who shot some shit in his back yard with a crew of himself and a budget of jack all.

The main thing is long as you are learning something…

What if the thing you're learning is wrong?

Here, let me teach you some things...

• the camera is the only thing that matters in film-making
• FF is the only sensor size worth shooting on in 2022
• getting the highest resolution sensor is the way to choose between cameras
• getting the sharpest lenses is the most important thing in choosing lenses

Wow - what a gift I have just given you!

[MrSMW]

Kye, it’s slightly disingenuous to state that anything and everything on YouTube is wrong and of zero value.

A lot of it is indeed crap, but the ability to pick and choose is an option, but “if it’s on YouTube, it’s worthless”, isn’t even close to being valid.

[kye]

17 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Kye, it’s slightly disingenuous to state that anything and everything on YouTube is wrong and of zero value.

A lot of it is indeed crap, but the ability to pick and choose is an option, but “if it’s on YouTube, it’s worthless”, isn’t even close to being valid.

If I offered you a snack from a tray, but first I told you that a significant proportion of them were poisoned and would make you sick, would you eat one?  or not risk it?

You're right that there's good info on YT, but the problem is that the only way you can tell the difference is if you already know what is right and what is mis-information, financial bias, over-simplification, or information that is correct but not useful.  Certainly I shouldn't have to tell this forum the level of content creators whose vested interests are better not consumed at all - in colourist terms the level of information is dramatically worse when you're talking about non-pros.

I think watching YT camera and colourist videos put me back at least a year in terms of time wasted confusing myself and time spent un-learning things that were never right to begin with, but I drank up because I didn't know how to tell the difference.

[hyalinejim]

42 minutes ago, kye said:

the only way you can tell the difference is if you already know what is right and what is mis-information

I agree with this. I learned how to make photos and videos from online sources around 10 to 15 years ago. It was easy to find authoritative information from tutorials on websites from industry professionals or at least people who knew what they were talking about. Even on forums (C5D anyone? I was a mod there for a while!) there was a system of checks and balances where the "right" solution could be arrived at through discourse and debate.

I would not like to be learning in the climate of today's internet where views for the sake of views is valued more than accuracy or utility.

If I do a YT search for something specific to do with cameras, let's say, I'll get a certain amount of results that are supposed to be relevant to my search terms as well as a certain amount of suggested content which is not.

If I do a google search on something like how to sew on a button chances are the first page of results will be full of any old SEO garbled nonsense and I might find what I'm looking for on page two, if I'm lucky.

Now, I've just realised that "the state of the internet" is the new grumpy old man fodder.🤣

[newfoundmass]

Honestly I don't care what camera you get. Get the FX3. Or don't. 

What you NEED to do, no matter what camera you end up with, is stick with it. Learn that camera until you can operate it with your eyes closed and I promise you'll be able to squeeze pretty much anything you could want out of it (within reason, of course!)

Learning your camera's strengths and weaknesses allows you to lean into and adapt to each one. Until very recently my main camera was a GH5, a 5 year old camera that is very flawed but also incredibly capable in the right hands. Out of necessity, because the GH5 isn't great in low light, I had to really learn lighting techniques. It was something I should've been doing all along, but the GH5 forced my hand. By being weak in low light the GH5 made me a better videographer. Those skills will stay with me no matter what camera I'm using 10 years from now. 

That's part of the journey. Embrace it. Even if there were a camera out there that could create the images you want with minimal effort, where's the fun in that? Where's the artistry? What sense of accomplishment would you feel? It's cliché, I know, but the camera is just a tool. You're the artist, so learn how to express your art with the tool you have! 

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

What you NEED to do, no matter what camera you end up with, is stick with it. Learn that camera until you can operate it with your eyes closed and I promise you'll be able to squeeze pretty much anything you could want out of it (within reason, of course!)

This.

[SRV1981]

5 hours ago, kye said:

I'm confused - someone that has done something professionally for decades isn't the best choice and a millennial with a laptop is?

There are lots of films shot in less-than-ideal conditions you know, and any very seasoned colourist will have colour corrected more projects in those situations that the laptop YT colourist will have graded any type of project.

Back in the days of film, it was common to shoot a very low-budget film on the remainders of film reels that had been bought for a movie or TV show but never used.  Sometimes you could buy these cheap from a studio for example.  The problem is that when it came time to edit your film, you had reels of film that were different brands, ages, processes, and had been treated differently (the roll that went out into the desert for a month shooting a Bedouin doco won't be as well cared for as one that was always kept in a fridge in a studio).
Obviously these colourists wouldn't be able to make the film a visual masterpiece, especially considering the project had a low budget to begin with and they were probably only brought in when the cut was deemed unwatchable due to all the colour casts etc.  

So someone who has experience doing this kind of work, and maybe archival restoration and other challenging work, doesn't know as much about grading than someone who waves a camera around and grades on a laptop?

Well, ok, if I insist.  I am that person.  I shoot uncontrolled scenes, in available lighting, and grade on a MBP.  You will now value my advice and wisdom more than a colourist with 50 years of experience.  Go back and re-read all my comments and take in the incredible wisdom I have given you.

What if the thing you're learning is wrong?

Here, let me teach you some things...

• the camera is the only thing that matters in film-making
• FF is the only sensor size worth shooting on in 2022
• getting the highest resolution sensor is the way to choose between cameras
• getting the sharpest lenses is the most important thing in choosing lenses

Wow - what a gift I have just given you!

Not sure why you’re taking this as if it’s a personal attack.  It seems to be standard here to shit on YouTubers - art is subjective.  Millions of viewers enjoy the content and aesthetic if this.  I threw out the idea that maybe folks can learn from then considering they make content millions watch and with little to no help. They don’t have dozens of crew helping shoot and light. They don’t have hundreds of VFX or colorists.  Most do it with 1-2 people or by themselves.  Tyler Stalman from YouTube has a podcast and had a long time major movie DP on and he made similar claims.   We can agree to disagree and I’m cool with it and still value your views and input 

 

2 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

What you NEED to do, no matter what camera you end up with, is stick with it

This is a fair point ! 

[kye]

4 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

Not sure why you’re taking this as if it’s a personal attack.  It seems to be standard here to shit on YouTubers - art is subjective.  Millions of viewers enjoy the content and aesthetic if this.  I threw out the idea that maybe folks can learn from then considering they make content millions watch and with little to no help. They don’t have dozens of crew helping shoot and light. They don’t have hundreds of VFX or colorists.  Most do it with 1-2 people or by themselves.  Tyler Stalman from YouTube has a podcast and had a long time major movie DP on and he made similar claims.   We can agree to disagree and I’m cool with it and still value your views and input 

 

This is a fair point ! 

Art is art and everything is valid and simply a matter of taste.  Absolutely.

If you were here posting your own work and saying that you like what you're doing, then that would be great.  The problem is that you've come on the forums asking the wrong questions and then disagreeing when people tell you things you don't like or don't align to this phoney world view that you have inherited from YT.  

The question "what camera should I buy to get results like this" is basically the same as saying "what camera can I buy that will mean I don't have to know what I'm doing or understand what entire departments do on a film set".  You may as well ask what time purple smells like rain - it would make about the same amount of sense.

This is my final attempt at giving you advice....   film is hard and you can't buy skill.  I know you don't want to hear this, but, basically, suck it up.  Pretending it's not true just means your skill building process is delayed further, and it sounds like you've already wasted many years already.

[TomTheDP]

 

[SRV1981]

4 hours ago, kye said:

Art is art and everything is valid and simply a matter of taste.  Absolutely.

If you were here posting your own work and saying that you like what you're doing, then that would be great.  The problem is that you've come on the forums asking the wrong questions and then disagreeing when people tell you things you don't like or don't align to this phoney world view that you have inherited from YT.  

The question "what camera should I buy to get results like this" is basically the same as saying "what camera can I buy that will mean I don't have to know what I'm doing or understand what entire departments do on a film set".  You may as well ask what time purple smells like rain - it would make about the same amount of sense.

This is my final attempt at giving you advice....   film is hard and you can't buy skill.  I know you don't want to hear this, but, basically, suck it up.  Pretending it's not true just means your skill building process is delayed further, and it sounds like you've already wasted many years already.

You must be fun to have a beer with. 

[SRV1981]

3 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

 

Based on this gentleman’s view (I assume from large productions with capacity for lighting and multiple post production folks) - why do you feel there’s a whole forum here with frequent discussion about raw, log, s35 vs ff, s1 vs c70 noise, cell phones etc? None of which come from me. Curious