Alexa Classic vs RED Komodo

[TomTheDP]

Just a video I made on the two cameras. I kind of rushed this video out there. If I ever get a chance I want to do more in depth testing. It really is hard to find time to make this kind of thing.

I did really like the Komodo. I think the dynamic range difference is obvious and you are not going to make up for it by just exposing for the highlights as the komodo shadow retention is not unlimited. However I really do think RED has greatly improved their color science on the Komodo though it still doesn't match perfectly to an Alexa.

Also yes these are just straight out of camera no color transform. A lot of people aren't going to be coloring in resolve so I thought it was best to just show a comparison with the manufacturers 709 luts applied.

This is what I came up with in Resolve using the color space transform tool. ARRI on top.

 

[PannySVHS]

A bit akward to watch but thank you. Your Colour matching looks very well done! What I found akward that sometime I had to guess which camera was which, despite that the youtuber made some very specific statements about the better looking of the two cameras in comparison. Varicam LT would be an exiting prospect. Also would love to see an intense and relevant comparision between the LT and the S1H.

[TomTheDP]

4 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

A bit akward to watch but thank you. Your Colour matching looks very well done! What I found akward that sometime I had to guess which camera was which, despite that the youtuber made some very specific statements about the better looking of the two cameras in comparison. Varicam LT would be an exiting prospect. Also would love to see an intense and relevant comparision between the LT and the S1H.

Thanks, if you check the comment section I pinned my own post where I show which camera is which. The give away is usually dynamic range, that or the Alexa is warmer looking.

I unfortunately have never worked with the Varicam but I have definitely considered it.

[PannySVHS]

Oh, kewl, you are the person who did the video! Thanks for doing and for sharing! cheers

[kye]

10 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

Just a video I made on the two cameras. I kind of rushed this video out there. If I ever get a chance I want to do more in depth testing. It really is hard to find time to make this kind of thing.

I did really like the Komodo. I think the dynamic range difference is obvious and you are not going to make up for it by just exposing for the highlights as the komodo shadow retention is not unlimited. However I really do think RED has greatly improved their color science on the Komodo though it still doesn't match perfectly to an Alexa.

Also yes these are just straight out of camera no color transform. A lot of people aren't going to be coloring in resolve so I thought it was best to just show a comparison with the manufacturers 709 luts applied.

This is what I came up with in Resolve using the color space transform tool. ARRI on top.

 

Good video - easily in the top 10% of camera YT - subbed and looking forward to future episodes!

In terms of the cameras, the Komodo didn't get embarrassed by the Classic, which is a tall order indeed.  The giveaway for me, which is as usual, was the green/magenta balance on skintones.  On some images that balance was different across various elements of the frame (e.g DR comparison when standing - 5:40), but when it was more closely matched (eg, the choir) it was only really the skin-tones that made it noticeable.  
It makes me wonder if a tiny adjustment to the Gamma would have closed the gap, or even pulling a soft key for skin-tones and making that adjustment.

I'd also be curious to see if putting them both under the same LUT would match them better too?  Assuming you can convert them both from Linear to the same Log, make any exposure adjustments, then put them through the same 709 conversion.  
I've found that the more of an image pipeline that two clips share, the more they'll match, and I'm used to matching things like a GH5 and an iPhone 🙂 

[TomTheDP]

I appreciate that @kye

In the images I attached in the post I used the colorspace transform tool to change the REDlog to Log C and then applied the ARRI Rec709 lut. The ARRI image was just as is, plus the REC709 lut. Both were shot at 5600k. I added in a +5 green tint to the RED in post as it seemed to lack some warmth. I was told now it looks too green so maybe the warmth coming from the Alexa is not just a tint difference.

[kye]

22 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

I appreciate that @kye

In the images I attached in the post I used the colorspace transform tool to change the REDlog to Log C and then applied the ARRI Rec709 lut. The ARRI image was just as is, plus the REC709 lut. Both were shot at 5600k. I added in a +5 green tint to the RED in post as it seemed to lack some warmth. I was told now it looks too green so maybe the warmth coming from the Alexa is not just a tint difference.

Ah, ok, good stuff.

I've watched a bunch of these camera tests, especially the more serious blind ones, and I've found that there's really no way to do these comparisons properly.

I've seen examples where setting the WB to the same values across different brands didn't result in the same colour balance at all, making me think that a custom WB would be better.  Then people apply different LUTs in post rather than doing what you have done in matching the image pipelines.  Then people don't match properly in post, applying manual adjustments shot-to-shot and pulling skin tone keys if necessary.  But real projects are likely to have a bit of a look applied, unless it's a straight-up and very low budget production that can't afford any time in post (the "commercial look" that looks neutral but super clean is actually quite a processed look and is quite heavily coloured).

BUT, at this point it's not really a camera test..  

I suspect these issues only really apply to someone working at your "tier" in the industry, and I don't envy you at all in this regard.  What I mean is that someone working at a lower tier would just buy more cameras and match them all - having a couple of GH5s or A7S2s is affordable and commercially reasonable, negating the need to match cameras.  Anyone working on a higher "tier" would rent equipment and simply match brands that way, or hire a colourist and it would be matched by them.  It seems to me it's the owner/operators who are doing their own low-budget jobs where they're trying to match their own camera (which they're charging out to the client) to the camera of a fellow owner/operator (who is also being charged out to the client) who are faced with this.  Logic suggests that you just rent a matching camera, but I do get that helping out colleagues is critical to business as helping each other out is needed to stay in business and grow.

[TomTheDP]

14 hours ago, kye said:

Ah, ok, good stuff.

I've watched a bunch of these camera tests, especially the more serious blind ones, and I've found that there's really no way to do these comparisons properly.

I've seen examples where setting the WB to the same values across different brands didn't result in the same colour balance at all, making me think that a custom WB would be better.  Then people apply different LUTs in post rather than doing what you have done in matching the image pipelines.  Then people don't match properly in post, applying manual adjustments shot-to-shot and pulling skin tone keys if necessary.  But real projects are likely to have a bit of a look applied, unless it's a straight-up and very low budget production that can't afford any time in post (the "commercial look" that looks neutral but super clean is actually quite a processed look and is quite heavily coloured).

BUT, at this point it's not really a camera test..  

I suspect these issues only really apply to someone working at your "tier" in the industry, and I don't envy you at all in this regard.  What I mean is that someone working at a lower tier would just buy more cameras and match them all - having a couple of GH5s or A7S2s is affordable and commercially reasonable, negating the need to match cameras.  Anyone working on a higher "tier" would rent equipment and simply match brands that way, or hire a colourist and it would be matched by them.  It seems to me it's the owner/operators who are doing their own low-budget jobs where they're trying to match their own camera (which they're charging out to the client) to the camera of a fellow owner/operator (who is also being charged out to the client) who are faced with this.  Logic suggests that you just rent a matching camera, but I do get that helping out colleagues is critical to business as helping each other out is needed to stay in business and grow.

The nice thing about RED is that tint and WB can be adjusted in post if you shoot RAW. I feel the Komodo is really close but I guess not quite the same. I'd be down to share some of the files if you are interested.

Surprisingly it's not that uncommon to find an Alexa with a Pocket camera as the B cam. Not on super high end productions but on mid tier stuff. I am trying to see what matches best as a "cheaper" B cam. I was pretty happy with the Sigma FP but I need to post a comparison to see what others think as my eye isn't the best for color subtlety.

[kye]

10 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

The nice thing about RED is that tint and WB can be adjusted in post if you shoot RAW. I feel the Komodo is really close but I guess not quite the same. I'd be down to share some of the files if you are interested.

Surprisingly it's not that uncommon to find an Alexa with a Pocket camera as the B cam. Not on super high end productions but on mid tier stuff. I am trying to see what matches best as a "cheaper" B cam. I was pretty happy with the Sigma FP but I need to post a comparison to see what others think as my eye isn't the best for color subtlety.

Yeah, I'd love to get a few files and have a play!

Which pockets do you see as B-cams?  Definitely curious about that.

I think the FP would probably be the best candidate as a B-cam, as it's FF giving it the best lens selection, the sensor and colour seems super capable of capturing a wide DR and gamut, and the codecs are definitely up to the challenge.  
While I didn't follow all the details that you guys were talking about in the FP thread I think that matching it in Resolve should actually be relatively easy if the right conversions are done.  If you have any shots from the Alexa and FP that you can share I'd be curious about how easy they are to match.

[IronFilm]

12 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

Surprisingly it's not that uncommon to find an Alexa with a Pocket camera as the B cam. Not on super high end productions but on mid tier stuff. I am trying to see what matches best as a "cheaper" B cam.

yeah earlier this year I worked on a feature film shot on an ARRI Mini, but the snorricam rig was using a BMD Pocket

Likewise Cowboy Bebop (NZ's biggest ever Netflix production) used Pockets for a stunts day I mixed. 

[Emanuel]

I am Co-Producer of two feature films I am trying to place them on the film festivals circuit in Europe right now.

One of them (shot on Pochet 6K) was selected (for official competition) this week.

I won't write here what cameras were used for the other one... but one thing I can assure you: there have been feature films shot on ARRI and RED cameras beaten by our precious Pocket series footage FYI :- )

[Emanuel]

*Pocket (Pochet might work very well as name for that camera series too BTW... LOL ; )

[Django]

@TomTheDP Interesting video! I'm a bit late here sorry but after working with Komodo footage for the first time the other day I think I am seriously considering this camera for my high-end cine needs. I love the R3D raw options (skin contrast, highlight rolloff etc) and how ISO works in post, you can get really creative and overall the files have so much information yet the file sizes are so small. The noise is also really organic/filmic compared to let's say BMD or Canon RAW. The motion cadence is also beautiful. Really I'm just blown away by the IQ and how you can massage those files in Davinci. ARRI is still the golden standard, the benchmark, but this feels like its just right below it IQ wise and for resolution or high ISO probably better.

The compact size of the camera, the traffic light exposure system, global shutter, RF mount, 6K resolution and even on-board PDAF makes it a really tempting A cam for me personally. I was all set on a C70 but after playing around with Komodo footage, well it just feels like a huge step forward in IQ. I think I will just upgrade my R6 to an R5 for hybrid all-around mid-level projects and go with the Komodo for anything higher. Now of course I gotta figure out how to finance it all!

[BenEricson]

2 hours ago, Django said:

@TomTheDP Interesting video! I'm a bit late here sorry but after working with Komodo footage for the first time the other day I think I am seriously considering this camera for my high-end cine needs. I love the R3D raw options (skin contrast, highlight rolloff etc) and how ISO works in post, you can get really creative and overall the files have so much information yet the file sizes are so small. The noise is also really organic/filmic compared to let's say BMD or Canon RAW. The motion cadence is also beautiful. Really I'm just blown away by the IQ and how you can massage those files in Davinci. ARRI is still the golden standard, the benchmark, but this feels like its just right below it IQ wise and for resolution or high ISO probably better.

The compact size of the camera, the traffic light exposure system, global shutter, RF mount, 6K resolution and even on-board PDAF makes it a really tempting A cam for me personally. I was all set on a C70 but after playing around with Komodo footage, well it just feels like a huge step forward in IQ. I think I will just upgrade my R6 to an R5 for hybrid all-around mid-level projects and go with the Komodo for anything higher. Now of course I gotta figure out how to finance it all!

Agreed. I was skeptical of the Komodo until I used it. I really love the footage that camera produces. I also love the noise and the motion. The look with the Vazens is really nice.

I also own the C70. I use it for a lot of corporate jobs. The face tracking, NDs, built in audio, 4K 120 are all really nice. I've used the RAW a little and it still is not close to the Komodo in terms of color depth and overall IQ. The motion is really bad. To be honest, I use it more, it makes a lot of money, but not really a fun camera. Means to an end.

[Django]

1 hour ago, BenEricson said:

Agreed. I was skeptical of the Komodo until I used it. I really love the footage that camera produces. I also love the noise and the motion. The look with the Vazens is really nice.

I also own the C70. I use it for a lot of corporate jobs. The face tracking, NDs, built in audio, 4K 120 are all really nice. I've used the RAW a little and it still is not close to the Komodo in terms of color depth and overall IQ. The motion is really bad. To be honest, I use it more, it makes a lot of money, but not really a fun camera. Means to an end.

Thanks for your input, so you have both Komodo & C70?

From the little C70 footage I've worked with, it did seem kinda choppy as far as motion. I find that to be true with a lot of cameras though, its hard to quantify and pinpoint but then when you have ultra smooth footage like the Komodo it becomes very clear. The global shutter must help with that. 

I hear you also about certain cameras being means to an end.  My FS7 feels that way. Super un-fun camera to operate, but a money maker. I don't know that the Komodo would feel much more fun though, its pretty much a sensor in a box.

[kye]

23 hours ago, Django said:

The noise is also really organic/filmic compared to let's say BMD or Canon RAW. The motion cadence is also beautiful. Really I'm just blown away by the IQ and how you can massage those files in Davinci. ARRI is still the golden standard, the benchmark, but this feels like its just right below it IQ wise and for resolution or high ISO probably better.

I agree with your impressions - I think the image from the Komodo is right up there with the top tier of cameras.  What stood out to me from the good examples of the footage was the noise and colour science, it had that feel where you just look at the image and know it just feels 'right'.

Rightly or wrongly RED also has the brand reputation and I'd imagine that a Komodo would get you onto higher-end sets than a C70?

[Django]

1 hour ago, kye said:

I agree with your impressions - I think the image from the Komodo is right up there with the top tier of cameras.  What stood out to me from the good examples of the footage was the noise and colour science, it had that feel where you just look at the image and know it just feels 'right'.

Rightly or wrongly RED also has the brand reputation and I'd imagine that a Komodo would get you onto higher-end sets than a C70?

Yeah that's definitely an added bonus but not the main appeal to me when deciding in between those two. 

For me it is a balance of convenience & reliability during the shooting experience, and the final image output and workflow in post.

The C70 with its DPAF, NDs, battery life & XLRs in combination with DGO sensor and RAW capabilities really ticks a lot of boxes and for run & gun, corporate work, docu etc it is really a slam dunk of a camera for such usage. Which is why I had it at the top of my next camera purchase list.

The Komodo again is a sensor in a box. You will need to rig it although the dual hot swap batteries, PDAF, touch screen, iOS RED app & RF mount (that will allow Canons vari-ND adapter) are all great things to have on the field and are often missing on most cine cams. The simple yet effective traffic light exposure system also seems awesome. These are all features that have pushed me into considering the Komodo even for run & gun applications. 

And then of course the IQ from the footage. The file sizes of the compressed RAW. The global shutter. 

The image does feel 'just right' as you say. The 6K doesn't feel over sharp. The motion is beautiful. The CS, the noise. The R3D raw settings. The image also holds even under extreme grades which allows to get more subtle and creative I find, there is great nuance. The LUTs that RED provide are also great. Overall the whole experience just seems to take you closer to that high-end polished "ARRI" cine look. 

But that's just my reasoning and playing with files, not actual hands-on field experience. A lot of operators here or on YT that have both C70 & Komodo seem to favour the C70 for solo jobs and fast turnarounds. That is a major chunk of my work, I have to think practical too. But then again a lot of higher end clients keep asking for more cinematic look. They want the IQ they see in advertising on TV, Netflix etc. I'm also planning on getting back to music videos and more artistic projects with higher production value. So right now, I am really leaning towards Komodo. I also think working with that footage will excite me and that's also always a good thing!

[webrunner5]

Yeah, the clients are the ones paying the bill, so even if it is a harder road to travel with the Komodo looks like it might be the right path to take. It is Reds best effort so far for overall use. 

[kye]

10 hours ago, Django said:

Yeah that's definitely an added bonus but not the main appeal to me when deciding in between those two. 

For me it is a balance of convenience & reliability during the shooting experience, and the final image output and workflow in post.

The C70 with its DPAF, NDs, battery life & XLRs in combination with DGO sensor and RAW capabilities really ticks a lot of boxes and for run & gun, corporate work, docu etc it is really a slam dunk of a camera for such usage. Which is why I had it at the top of my next camera purchase list.

The Komodo again is a sensor in a box. You will need to rig it although the dual hot swap batteries, PDAF, touch screen, iOS RED app & RF mount (that will allow Canons vari-ND adapter) are all great things to have on the field and are often missing on most cine cams. The simple yet effective traffic light exposure system also seems awesome. These are all features that have pushed me into considering the Komodo even for run & gun applications. 

And then of course the IQ from the footage. The file sizes of the compressed RAW. The global shutter. 

The image does feel 'just right' as you say. The 6K doesn't feel over sharp. The motion is beautiful. The CS, the noise. The R3D raw settings. The image also holds even under extreme grades which allows to get more subtle and creative I find, there is great nuance. The LUTs that RED provide are also great. Overall the whole experience just seems to take you closer to that high-end polished "ARRI" cine look. 

But that's just my reasoning and playing with files, not actual hands-on field experience. A lot of operators here or on YT that have both C70 & Komodo seem to favour the C70 for solo jobs and fast turnarounds. That is a major chunk of my work, I have to think practical too. But then again a lot of higher end clients keep asking for more cinematic look. They want the IQ they see in advertising on TV, Netflix etc. I'm also planning on getting back to music videos and more artistic projects with higher production value. So right now, I am really leaning towards Komodo. I also think working with that footage will excite me and that's also always a good thing!

It might be worth renting one to verify what the experience is like?

One gotcha from the Komodo is the cropping for alternative resolutions and higher frame rates - not sure if that's an issue for you, and I can't recall if it also afflicts the C70?  I don't think I ever got a straight answer on if the Komodo could shoot Prores at lower resolutions by downscaling internally, which might be worth considering if you're not always shooting 6K.

From what I've read the Achilles heel of the C70 is the screen, which if you were planning to use it with an external monitor would close the gap between the two in terms of rigging etc.  Personally, For run-n-gun stuff I always keep the camera rigged up and ready to go if possible.  I know lots of shooters will tear their rig down for flights etc, but will build out the rig prior to the shoot days and have a bag or case that can take it rigged up and they'll use that to transport it to the shoot location so there's no rigging occurring on set.  I'm lucky with my smaller setups, but I'd be shifting that stuff away from shoot days if at all possible.

[webrunner5]

Specs:

Sensor type:KOMODO® 19.9 mp super 35mm global shutter cmos

Effective pixels:6144 x 3240

Sensor size:27.03 mm x 14.26 mm (diagonal: 30.56mm)

Mount type:Canon RF mount

Max data rates:up to 280 mb/s on cfast 2.0 media cards

REDCODE® RAW max frame rates:40 fps at 6k 17:9 (6144 x 3240)
50 fps at 6k 2.4:1 (6144 x 2592)
48 fps at 5k 17:9 (5120 x 2700)
60 fps at 4k 17:9 (4096 x 2160)
120 fps at 2k 17:9 (2048 x 1080)

Playback frame rates (project time base):23.98, 24, 25, 29.97, 30, 50, 59.94, 60 fps, all resolutions

Best available REDCODE® settings:REDCODE HQ, MQ and LQ at 6k 17:9 (6144 x 3240) up to 40 fps
REDCODE HQ, MQ and LQ at 4k 17:9 (4096 x 2160) up to 60 fps
REDCODE HQ, MQ and LQ at 2k 17:9 (2048 x 1080) up to 120 fps
REDCODE® RAW

Acquisition formats:6k 17:9 (6144 x 3240), 2.4:1 and 16:9
5k 17:9 (5120 x 2700)
4k 17:9 (4096 x 2160)
2k 17:9 (2048 x 1080)

Apple ProRes:4k (4096 × 2160) at ProRes 422 HQ and ProRes 422 up to 60 fps
2k (2048 × 1080) at ProRes 422 HQ and ProRes 422 up to 120 fps

Construction:aluminum alloy

Weight:2.10 lbs (without body cap and cfast card)

Battery type:two slots for bp-9xx series batteries

Dc power input:+7 to +17 v dc via the integrated 2-pin dc-in port

Color management:image processing pipeline 2 (ipp2)

Audio:integrated dual channel digital mono microphones, uncompressed, 24-bit 48 khz

Additional dual channel:integrated 3.5mm audio jack, uncompressed, 24-bit 48 khz

Remote control:wifi for camera control via interchangeable antenna with SMA connection, genlock, timecode-in, GPIO and ctrl (rs232) via the integrated 9-pin ext port

Wired control:komodo link adaptor, using usb-c or gigabit ethernet (compatible usb-c to ethernet adapter1 required) allowing camera control and live mjpeg preview video feed

Monitor outputs:12G-SDI with 6G-SDI, 3G-SDI and 1.5G-SDI modes
12G-SDI: up to 4096 x 2160 4:2:2 for 60p
6G-SDI: up to 4096 x 2160 4:2:2 for 30p
3G-SDI: up to 2048 x 1080 4:2:2 for 60p
1.5G-SDI: up to 2048 x 1080 4:2:2 for 30p, 24p
SMPTE timecode, HANC metadata, 24-bit 48 khz audio

Monitor options:integrated 2.9″ 1440×1440 touchscreen lcd with preview and camera control

Wireless live preview video feed:2.4ghz/5ghz wifi for framing