APS-C vs FF: a hybrid camera for 1000-1250 EUR (used)

[SandKa]

I'd like to ask you some questions to help me choose a hybrid camera for amateur use - family and travel. After reading many reviews and opinions I'm considering two options:

1. Sony A7 III + 28-70mm f/3.5-5.6 OSS (alternative: FE 50mm f1.8) / 1250-1300 EUR (used), or

2. Fuji XT3 + 18-55mm f/2.8-4 R LM OIS (any OIS budget alternatives?) / 1000-1050 EUR (used).

I would also like to use my Contax Zeiss 50mm f1.4 with an adapter.

Please help me decide which one to choose, considering these factors:

• IQ in video: 4k 24fps / 1080p 120 fps (slow-mo is less important);
• stabilization in video: Sony's IBIS + lens OSS (or only IBIS with FE 50mm f/1.8) vs Fuji's OIS in the lens - mostly standing and walking slowly;
• AF in video: keeping in focus a 3-year-old kid.

Regarding photos - I shoot RAW+JPG and know that Sony is better for processing low-light RAWs but Fuji has better JPGs SOOC. 

I am considering cheaper options as well:

• Fuji XT30 or XT2, and
• Canon 5dmark II (poor DR in photos though), 6d, or mark III with ML (I know that I would have to rely on MF in video). There are also some good deals on used 5d Mark IV (850-1050 EUR). I don't know if mark IV's 4k video can compete with ML though. What's important: by choosing Canon I could cut down the cost by using the existing Canon 50mm f1.8 (if it's any good for video). Within 1000 EUR price range there is also Canon RP but the massive crop and lack of DPAF in 4k, as well as no IBIS and poor DR, make it look very bad for a modern camera. I exclude Sony 6xxx series cameras because I don't like the ergonomics and heard that they are prone to overheating.

I don't have a budget for any additional lenses or gimbal (don't know if I'd like to use one) but a cheap/used monopod could be an option for a non-IBIS camera.

[IronFilm]

Don't understand why a Canon 5Dmk2 is on your list of considerations??!!

And I'd add to your considering the Panasonic S5, and Panasonic G9 (maybe even the Panasonic G85 for cheap). Plus the Fujifilm X-S10

[webrunner5]

With the lens choices you are stating you could do all you want with a newer Smartphone.

[SandKa]

7 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Don't understand why a Canon 5Dmk2 is on your list of considerations??!!

And I'd add to your considering the Panasonic S5, and Panasonic G9 (maybe even the Panasonic G85 for cheap). Plus the Fujifilm X-S10

I saw some very nice looking footage created on 5dmk2 using Magic Lantern. AFAIK it was also recommended on EOSHD blog as the most Alexa-like digital image by camera under 1000$ (back in 2019). I know that I would not have AF and stabilization in video with this camera but 5dmkII can be found really cheap nowadays (even below 250 EUR!). As a result I don't consider it in the same category as Fuji XT3 or Sony A7III but rather a very budget-friendly alternative. Maybe someone could BTW explain how ML high-res modes compare to modern 4k output by medium-budget cameras (like XT3/30 or A7III)?

Regarding Panasonic S5 - I will take it into consideration. I had found it for 1600 EUR used on my local market but after you mentioned it I looked on ebay and there are offers closer to 1250 EUR from abroad (although I'd prefer to test the camera from second-hand market before buying). 

Panasonic G85 is also a very nice budget option - to compete in price with Canon 6D and 5Dmk2. Panasonic G9 would be a strong rival to Canon 5DmkIII. Video quality and IBIS are very nice features but wouldn't old FF sensor from Canon still beat Panasonic m43 completely in photography department?

Fujifilm X-S10 is not easy to find used but still a very nice addition to my top 3 list - thank you. In terms of video quality it looks like it's not on the same level as XT3 but has IBIS which is a big PLUS.

[webrunner5]

Magic Lantern has to be the most Unreliable thing ever invented. You would have better luck guessing the Lotto numbers than using Magic Lantern often. If you don't cuss you will.

[SandKa]

17 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Magic Lantern has to be the most Unreliable thing ever invented. You would have better luck guessing the Lotto numbers than using Magic Lantern often. If you don't cuss you will.

I am afraid of that. Sometimes footage which can be found on youtube shows disturbing "artifacts" (flickering red dots in darker parts of the picture looking like a noise). Maybe problems mostly occur in the newest experimental builds? There have to be some tested "safe modes" in ML for sure... Anyway, thank you for your input.

[mkabi]

24 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Magic Lantern has to be the most Unreliable thing ever invented. You would have better luck guessing the Lotto numbers than using Magic Lantern often. If you don't cuss you will.

In the early days when they kept it simple (focusing on monitoring tools, etc.) and had stable releases - it was dependable. When they started focusing on Dual ISO output and RAW.... pushing the limits.... thats when it all started falling apart.

There is no stable release anymore... not for a long time now... even the gateway into getting ML isn't as simple as it was back then.

Also... I find it funny... that everyone based Canon's inability to max out their own tech off of Magic Lantern's efforts.... yeah well... it was all over inflated... ask a real user.... how long is the record limit with Magic Lantern on the 5D Mark 3... and the real truth starts coming out. Thats when you start to realize that R5's 8K over heating and record limit issues wasn't so bad.

 

[mkabi]

11 minutes ago, SandKa said:

I am afraid of that. Sometimes footage which can be found on youtube shows disturbing "artifacts" (flickering red dots in darker parts of the picture looking like a noise). Maybe problems mostly occur in the newest experimental builds? There have to be some tested "safe modes" in ML for sure... Anyway, thank you for your input.

Its more than just "artifacts"... do your research before going down that route...

If you are bothered by a 30 min. record limit... yeah well... you know what... do your research.

[MrSMW]

4 hours ago, SandKa said:

Fuji XT3 + 18-55mm f/2.8-4 R LM OIS (any OIS budget alternatives?) / 1000-1050 EUR (used).

This.

Done.

Next.

[MrSMW]

Or up your budget slightly and go for Tamron’s 17-70mm f2.8 with their version of OIS called VC.

Job done. Even better than Fujis 18-55 variable aperture zoom.

[newfoundmass]

The XT3 doesn't have IBIS but the A7III's IBIS isn't very good anyway. The Sony has better AF, but the Fuji blows Sony away as far as image is concerned. I think Fuji is the way to go. 

The Panasonic S5 with the kit lens is even better if you want to spend a little extra. 

[IronFilm]

10 hours ago, SandKa said:

I saw some very nice looking footage created on 5dmk2 using Magic Lantern. AFAIK it was also recommended on EOSHD blog as the most Alexa-like digital image by camera under 1000$ (back in 2019). I know that I would not have AF and stabilization in video with this camera but 5dmkII can be found really cheap nowadays (even below 250 EUR!). As a result I don't consider it in the same category as Fuji XT3 or Sony A7III but rather a very budget-friendly alternative. Maybe someone could BTW explain how ML high-res modes compare to modern 4k output by medium-budget cameras (like XT3/30 or A7III)?

5Dmk2 ML raw has so many cons/gotchas, that it only makes sense for small projects with no budgets. Such as a music video, or a fine arts student doing a visual media project. 

I'd always prefer to film with a X-T3 / P4K / GH5S / G9 / E2-M4 / etc instead. 

Heck, give me a Nikon D5200 to film with rather than a 5Dmk2!!! That's how far I'd go. 

10 hours ago, SandKa said:

Panasonic G85 is also a very nice budget option - to compete in price with Canon 6D and 5Dmk2. Panasonic G9 would be a strong rival to Canon 5DmkIII. Video quality and IBIS are very nice features but wouldn't old FF sensor from Canon still beat Panasonic m43 completely in photography department?

My opinion is once DSLR cameras crossed the 12megapixel threshold (which was a loooong time ago!), then all the prosumer/pro cameras since then have been damn good for photography! Especially if you're not a professional yourself, then any of those cameras can do a damn fine job in the right hands. 

Now, someone might be picky with me and disagree, but that just simply means shifting that threshold of when that starting point was. Say when DSLRs crossed the 20 megapixel barrier? The Nikon D7100 (a nearly decade old camera!) is a very very good camera even in 2022 for stills shooting!

It is only video where it took longer to catch up, and I'd say that point when it happened was "five years ago". 

DXOMark does not have the Panasonic G9 listed, but the GH5 is there, and for stills performance you should get basically the same images out of both the GH5 and G9. So  let's see what DXOMark says for GH5/G9 vs 5Dmk2:

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Canon/EOS-5D-Mark-II 

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Panasonic/Lumix-DC-GH5

Overall it is 79 vs 77, which is to say: no difference at all!

Color depth: same!

Basically with the G9 you're trading off some low light capabilities, but gaining better dynamic range than the 5Dmk2. That's a trade I'll take!

Plus when it comes to their feature sets, the Panasonic G9 absolutely thrashes and crushes the 5Dmk2 (or mk3!) when it comes to stills photography. 

 

 

10 hours ago, SandKa said:

Fujifilm X-S10 is not easy to find used but still a very nice addition to my top 3 list - thank you. In terms of video quality it looks like it's not on the same level as XT3 but has IBIS which is a big PLUS.

Yup, vs a X-T3 then you lose 10bit internal (got 10bit external though), but is a newer camera and you gain IBIS. All for a similar ish price to a X-T3

 

[TomTheDP]

Get a used XT-3.

A 5D MK3 with magic lantern is great. It is 14 bit RAW. You won't get that kind of image out of anything but an Alexa or RED camera. The dynamic range isn't as good but it has a certain thickness and depth that you won't find in cheaper cameras.

That said you'll enjoy the clean look out of the XT3 as well as the 4K recording up to 60p and very nice HD 120fps.

[ac6000cw]

17 hours ago, SandKa said:

Panasonic G85 is also a very nice budget option - to compete in price with Canon 6D and 5Dmk2. Panasonic G9 would be a strong rival to Canon 5DmkIII. Video quality and IBIS are very nice features but wouldn't old FF sensor from Canon still beat Panasonic m43 completely in photography department?

As a budget used option, I'd also consider a used Olympus E-M1 mk2 - decent, full sensor width, 4k up to 30p, excellent DCI 4k at 24p (only), phase-detect AF, superb IBIS (probably only beaten by the newer Oly/OMDS cameras), pro-level build quality and weather sealing, mic and headphone jacks, dual SD card slots and great battery life. It also feels good in the hand. I think the 'Flat' picture profile provides better video quality than the normal profiles (there's OM-Log400 available as well).

The E-M5 mk3 is essentially the same camera in a smaller, lighter body (but no headphone jack and only one card slot), but is more expensive used. E-M1 mk3 has better AF, an AF joystick and auto-ISO capability in manual video mode, but is rather more expensive used.

I own the G85, G9 and E-M1 mk2 - G9 has the best video quality (including 10-bit support) and the best EVF, but the E-M1 mk2 is a great all-round package at the current used prices.

[PannySVHS]

The suggestions above seem compelling regarding AF, IBIS and all in all quality.

So, EM1 mk2, if AF is up to OPs demands and XT3 with a OIS lens.

I would suggest to dig into more research regarding these models. Is the AF of the XT3 really that much better than from a Lumix G9. But then again, with AF lenses one has to consider the native MFT lenses as well. I don´t like native electronic lenses too much, the 12 -35 I find unpleasant to use with MF amd AF, the 20mm 1.7 is fun for slow photography. So, no superquick route to find the right camera it seems.:) A used S5 hands down the best choice. @MrSMW found the AF in video pretty useful. AF in photomode has been great with most lenses (except the 20mm F1.7 is slooow:) since the days of the Lumix GF1, so for more than 12 years now.

What, ML Raw for the 5d3 is not reliable? I thought @Django you never had a problem with moderate settings? Still dreaming of FF 1080p+ RAW. As a semipro I grab a 8bit FS700 without a 10bit Shogun. But for my own personal pleasure I just like these other fun cameras like bmmcc, eos m, etc.

[Django]

22 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

What, ML Raw for the 5d3 is not reliable? I thought @Django you never had a problem with moderate settings?

I'm not sure why you're quoting me, as I haven't used ML RAW since so many years ago. 

@mercer is the right person to ask.

Also I have to agree with the others, it is a hack and hence rather convoluted to use.

You have to find the right settings to not brick it and then you only have a couple seconds of shooting time really.

I guess at some point I got the whole thing down and could shoot somewhat reliably with it but that was many many builds ago. No clue what the current situation is. 

The 14-bit output is phenomenal of course but you need to know how to unpack the footage etc.

No way would I recommend going that route for "amateur use - family & travel".

Not sure I'd recommend the XT3 either. For a 3-year old you're going to want robust AF & IBIS can't hurt.

Plus he wants to adapt his Contax Zeiss 50mm. So FF is the better option.

A7III seems like indeed the right choice for those particular requirements.

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, Django said:

Not sure I'd recommend the XT3 either. For a 3-year old you're going to want robust AF & IBIS can't hurt.

Plus he wants to adapt his Contax Zeiss 50mm.

But then AF doesn't matter at all 
 

1 hour ago, Django said:

So FF is the better option.

Focal reducers exist.  

[ade towell]

I much prefer the image from the Fuji but I've got to agree with Django, if you're following a 3 year old around the Sony's AF will definitely be better

[Django]

50 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

But then AF doesn't matter at all 

Not for that particular lens but he also specified: 

Sony A7 III + 28-70mm f/3.5-5.6 OSS

AF in video: keeping in focus a 3-year-old kid.

53 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Focal reducers exist.  

They do but his budget seems super limited and focal reducers are often three to four times the price of an adapter.

49 minutes ago, ade towell said:

I much prefer the image from the Fuji but I've got to agree with Django, if you're following a 3 year old around the Sony's AF will definitely be better

Just to be clear, I much prefer the image of Fuji also as well as the camera interface itself but yeah the Sony AF & IBIS will surely be more useful in this user case.

[webrunner5]

The OP had to determine what is more important, Photos or Video. NO camera is great at both for the money he is going to use, or the lenses he is suggesting. Kit lenses on average suck for either.

I also have the Olympus E-M1 mk II and it is great for photos and pretty good for video, and the Panny G9 would be just the opposite.