Insta360 ONE RS 1-Inch sensor size Co-Engineered with Leica, they say... Just arrived!

[Emanuel]

 

Next purchase to come... Can't wait! :- )

[kye]

Disappointing and barely improved from previous models (or at all??)

Once again, people fail to understand what is actually going on here.  The problem with 360 cameras was always that by the time you crop to a FOV that doesn't look like you're on massive amounts of drugs, the image starts to fall apart with lack of resolution and compression (poor bitrate).

When you crop into the image, this 120Mbps 6144x3072@25/24fps in 360 degrees equates to:

• 15mm lens on FF (100.4 deg Horizontally) 1713x723 resolution (16:9) at 7.9Mbps

• 18mm lens on FF (90 deg Horizontally) 1536x648 resolution (16:9) at 6.3Mbps 

• 24mm lens on FF (73.7 deg Horizontally) 1258x530 resolution (16:9) at 4.24Mbps

Realistically, the 120Mbps is the limit, not the resolution.  A 1.2K image wouldn't be so bad in the context of a nicely graded edit if it was more than 4Mbps...  I'm waiting for a 400Mbps model - that would take that 24mm crop to something approaching 'real' camera territory (15Mbps or so).

The challenge is that these are often used in situations where things are moving a lot and really stressing the codec.

[webrunner5]

Phillip Bloom was and is big on 360 stuff and he said years ago it would take 8k or more for good 3D and here they are with a new camera still doing 6k. What the hell. There is just not enough data to make it really work yet.

[kye]

1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

Phillip Bloom was and is big on 360 stuff and he said years ago it would take 8k or more for good 3D and here they are with a new camera still doing 6k. What the hell. There is just not enough data to make it really work yet.

Unfortunately I think that this is unlikely to resolve itself any time soon.

For sports-bros and the GoPro crowd, more than 100Mbps seems to become cumbersome (or at least the manufacturers seem to think so - the GoPro Hero 10 tops out at 100Mbps and hasn't improved much since the GoPro Hero 3 which was about 45Mbps).  I don't know why, because SD cards keep coming down in price every year, and computers keep getting more powerful, and the resolution is what kills a computer anyway, not the bitrate.

There are higher bitrate 360 cameras available, but they're huge, like the Insta360 Titan, which has 8 MFT sensors and records up to 11K and 180Mbps per lens (1,440Mbps in total before stitching? I'm not sure about this because stitching might create a VR image?).

Problem is that it's 23cm / 9 inches in diameter and weighs 5.5kg / 12 pounds.  I'm not casually putting that on a selfie-stick and carrying it around!

It's the old adage once again - big quality = big camera and small camera = shitty quality.

[ND64]

3 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

it would take 8k or more for good 3D and here they are with a new camera still doing 6k

Chip shortages and thin profit margin. Look at the Nikon announcement today. Everybody is trying to use the parts they already have in inventory or still available to order. This one has 1 inch sensor and two of them, at just $700! Japanese gave up single 1 inch P&S at $1000. I don't want to be business manager of this company.

[gt3rs]

I'm a big user of insta360 cameras, I have 2 of them, mostly to film myself and sometimes I use for projects too.... looking and some side by side the 1inch is definitely a step forward.

I do agree that 8k would be the bar minimum.... I think the industry stays away from 8k as stitching 8k video would probably only be possible on top-of-the-line phones and PCs.... and the market that they target it is mostly consumers. Same for requiring higher speed microSD

8k, 400 Mbits, 10 bit LOG would be the quantum leap that is needed to have 360 cameras used more professionally

All screen shoots from videos:

 

[kye]

5 hours ago, gt3rs said:

8k, 400 Mbits, 10 bit LOG would be the quantum leap that is needed to have 360 cameras used more professionally

That's a spec that would get me to buy one.  

Serendipitously, they're right on track to release one when I want to upgrade my current action camera - in about 3-5 years!

[Emanuel]

1. This is not a Jack of all trades.

2.

16 hours ago, kye said:

The challenge is that these are often used in situations where things are moving a lot and really stressing the codec.

Indeed. So they're very useful if well used. They're speciality cameras.

3.

14 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Phillip Bloom was and is big on 360 stuff and he said years ago it would take 8k or more for good 3D and here they are with a new camera still doing 6k. What the hell. There is just not enough data to make it really work yet.

Who is he? ; ) LOL The only experts I am aware to be considered like that are a couple of 360 nerds, I guess and yes, we cannot dream too much yet but at least make it still usable under certain variables:

And here's another one to prove why despite the current tech limitations, this is more than a meh upgrade obviously for those who have 3 cameras of them as myself now going one step further:

 

 

[kye]

1 hour ago, Emanuel said:

1. This is not a Jack of all trades.

That's true, although the wider you make the shot, the higher the quality but also the more specialised it becomes.  For example, if you cropped at 90degrees it would be a standard wide angle view which has almost unlimited applications but is almost unusable, but if you don't crop at all then you're getting 6K 120Mbps in all its glory but the shot is literally unusable for anything at all.

The problem is that for any real use you'll need the quality to be above a certain threshold and the crop associated with that is only usable in a tiny tiny percentage of applications.

To give you a comparison, an action camera might have a 100Mbps 4K image and a 15mm FF equivalent lens.  For a 360 camera to replicate that it would need to be a 1,500Mbps 12,000K image.  
When I film with my GH5 in 200Mbps 10-bit 422 1080p and my Sony X3000 in 4K 100Mbps I think the action camera looks poor in comparison and I have to really treat it nicely in post to try and elevate it from the cheap/nasty/brittle image that it has.  A 6K 120Mbps 360 camera cannot possibly hope to compete against that.

I mean, I'm filming with my GF3 and its 1080p 17Mbps, which is still more bitrate and resolution than the 360 camera has at a 15mm FF equivalent crop.  This brand new 360 action camera when cropped to anything remotely sensible can't compete with a budget MFT camera from 2011.

1 hour ago, Emanuel said:

1this is more than a meh upgrade obviously for those who have 3 cameras of them as myself now going one step further:

Oh, I never said this was a "meh" update.  It's taking something that is woefully inadequate and taking it to merely being quite inadequate - a huge improvement no doubt.  But just because a kid improves their math test scores doesn't mean that they deserve to pass.

[Emanuel]

We've used the 360 concept for BTS as for instance and has been a recipe for success. As well, for insert shots like those examples @gt3rs has posted. Camera setup usually on tripod without much motion are ingredients for further practical handling. No other capture device will deliver the same for such handy and price point package as of mid-2022. It's a unique product.

EAG :- )

[Emanuel]

Last but not least, the best camera is the one you have as we all know but sometimes tend to forget ; )

Yet, no camera works without the shooter but there are cameras which can do it less than other tools and this is effectively what it is. Horses for courses. For such 360º performance is an incredible one.

The professional mantra always depends obviously on the skills/ability of the user to manage it and the service made with the outcome.

[Emanuel]

6 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

(...)

Yet, no camera works without the shooter but there are cameras which can do it less than other tools (...)

With no less inventive angle setup to demand from the shooter, anyway :- )

[kye]

20 hours ago, Emanuel said:

We've used the 360 concept for BTS as for instance and has been a recipe for success. As well, for insert shots like those examples @gt3rs has posted. Camera setup usually on tripod without much motion are ingredients for further practical handling. No other capture device will deliver the same for such handy and price point package as of mid-2022. It's a unique product.

Oh, don't get me wrong, a 360 camera is a spectacular tool for capturing moments that cannot be predicted.  I want one and would use it extensively, except that the quality just doesn't justify it.

For me, my experience of shooting is a combination of how good the equipment is and the results I will get from it.  The GH5 is a reliable camera with easy-to-use functions that creates a great image (when paired with the right lenses) and it's a pleasure to use, but it cannot guarantee that I will capture the right framing while I am recording, and it absolutely cannot give me two (or more) camera angles from the same moment in time.

A 360 camera can give me every camera angle simultaneously.  If I am walking down a street I am recording everyone doing everything at every moment.  If I was to walk down a street and exchange greetings with a passerby or shop-keeper or turn a corner and see a wonderful view, I can capture the view looking forwards as well as the view of myself looking back.  I can capture the person talking and the person listening and the reaction shots.  I can capture it all.

.......but at the quality that I will be capturing all of this footage, it would be demoralising.  Walking around knowing you're capturing everything in "old budget smartphone" quality would just make me feel shitty.  It's like going to a buffet and all the food is terrible but you can eat as much as you want.  360 cameras are capturing every shot at a quality that doesn't make me want to use any in my final video.

I mean, look at this shot, from Brandon Lee (who is in the Insta360 promo video itself) in his paid sponsored video for it:

and here's his face:

With image quality like that, my experience is better to shoot with an action camera that is only capturing a quarter of the action in a scene, but the shots are all much nicer and I feel like I'm capturing usable footage.

I mean, we have the P4K which was released in 2018 that wrote 1088Mbps to a card and now we have this camera at about 60% of the price and it's limited to 120Mbps.  It's not the resolution that's the problem - it's the bitrate.  This camera is more crippled than almost any Canon camera has ever been!

It's sensor will be about smartphone quality, which if you look at the image that they're able to make when shooting RAW stills, you'll know that they're nothing like the above image quality, so it won't be the sensors - it's the processing and codec.  

[Emanuel]

You're pretty right on the spot : ) even though a bigger sensor size will help to minimize the gap and each help is welcome :- )

Even still crappy for the reasons you mention, that low light performance is priceless compared with the actual tech at our disposal till today. It won't change much but enough to make it usable for certain circumstances.

- EAG

[Thomas Hill]

What about their regular (non-360) one-inch sensor cam? How's the IQ from it?

[kye]

5 hours ago, Thomas Hill said:

What about their regular (non-360) one-inch sensor cam? How's the IQ from it?

I'd imagine it's slightly worse considering the the sensor is likely older and definitely smaller but is still crippled with the same codec and bitrate.

Each time they upgrade I've seen comparisons (not with this model yet though) that compares the new and previous ones, and they're always a little bit better but ultimately still disappointing.  Lok Cheung normally does a comparison and seems to own all the models in the range, but he hasn't released a review on this model yet, which is unfortunate.

[webrunner5]

Emanual you should have bought this rig instead of that Insta360 ONE RS 1. What a cheap skate.

 

 

[kye]

6 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Emanual you should have bought this rig instead of that Insta360 ONE RS 1. What a cheap skate.

 

 

Finally...  a 360 setup with enough bitrate!!

[Emanuel]

Yet speaking of Brandon Li and regardless of his natural paid stuff, here's this interesting entry from there:

 

[Emanuel]

To those into the market looking for something really interesting in this segment, here's a simple and curious (at least to me) inexpensive add-on for only about 100 pounds:

source

A nice comparative test here side-by-side with and beating the GoPro, not on slowmotion features for sure, just testifying that old school adage to each its own is still keeping the norm on this business...

Take a look on that HDR or night footage coupled to much less overly sharpness outcome to stand and match with a much more natural real meaning of resolution instead ; )

With some other cool goodie extras there too.