Sony A7S footage topic

[apefos]

I think it would be possible for Sony to implement a way to do the S-Log2 grading inside the camera before the 8 bit compression. Sony could enable different grading levels to shadows/midtones/highlights for the user to chose and turn the S-Log2 image into a graded image inside the camera, this way there would be no need of post production grading, much faster workflow and would avoid gradient banding. I think this is simple to do, just enable a menu function with some grading algorithms or lut curves. Also it would be interesting to allow the user to load custom grading presets to the camera.

[Jacek]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T_M0rSEwmHY

[Michael1]

I tried grading "Arizona falls" (higher contrast, saturation, different WB) in Resolve and it looks very nice (thought I don't have much experience in grading). On first sight the noise in shadows does not look worse than GH4 4K flat profile graded and scaled to HD - I tried Philip Bloom's Seoul panorama files.

Don't have big screen to pixel peep, so maybe I'm wrong..

Any link?

 

Michael

[Jacek]

Any link?
Michael

To my gradings? No, too much trouble for me to share and it's just amateur post processing.

[jgharding]

I've been grading some A7s tests.

 

S-log is good, but can be noisy in shadows. Very noisy actually! Be careful out there...

 

LUT conversion from S-log 2 s-gamut to 709 gamut makes green shades an odd plastic colour that i don't find pleasant. Look at the trees in many tests and see what I mean.

 

Conversion to Cine+ 709 is much more cinematic, less Sony plastic. This is a top-layer LUT, so you can grade under it. Or grade over it if you like... there's no rules really!

 

Get your LUTs here:

 

http://community.sony.com/sony/attachments/sony/large-sensor-camera-F5-F55/2872/2/RosolveCubeFiles.zip

 

Here's how they work:

 

http://community.sony.com/sony/attachments/sony/large-sensor-camera-F5-F55/2872/1/SonyLookProfilesSummaryV1_1.pdf

 

Buy me a beer if you see me in Soho ;)

[Michael Ma]

Downloaded the 1080p version and there's nothing wrong with resolution from the camera... looks very sharply resolved to me. However the upload is too heavily compressed. A shame he did not upload it in ProRes LT.

He now looks to be sharing the raw files from the camera.  mfilms.us/1poNklL

 

Update:  Oops...I didn't see that the link was posted already.  My apologies.

 

The shadows are very noisy, although they are workable...just barely.  I now wonder if Sony made some last minute adjustments so that it doesn't compete against their own products.  If that smoked fish video was made with the production camera, could they produce the same results?  I wonder what they have to say about the noise and if they notice a difference.

[Husah]

Slog2

 

[lafilm]

Rolling shutter looked worse than expected in this new test:

 

[Michael1]

Interesting review of the A7S by The Camera Store.  They liked it, but weren't super enthused.

 

The good news is they said Sony finally weather sealed an A7 series camera with the A7S.

 

It is a shame Sony didn't put 10 bit in the HDMI output, especially if you have to go to the trouble and expense of connecting an external recorder for 4K.  10 bit is even a requirement for Rec. 2020 for UHD.

 

Michael

[Oliver Daniel]

The dynamic range looks incredible, but the rolling shutter looked terrible.

I do a lot of 'jump in' handheld work, so I don't think this camera would be an ideal upgrade. Need to see more.

[Jacek]

more ungraded s-log to play with:

[Quirky]

The dynamic range looks incredible, but the rolling shutter looked terrible.

 

Well, what did you expect? After all, it's a full frame CMOS sensor camera. Of course it'll show some, especially if you wiggle it. Even APS-C and smaller size CMOS cameras have some rolling shutter issues. Some more, some less, but they all have some. I don't think expecting no rolling shutter from a FF CMOS (4K) sensor camera is entirely realistic, so far. Better to try finding ways to work around the problem.

 

I do a lot of 'jump in' handheld work, so I don't think this camera would be an ideal upgrade. Need to see more.

 

You might want to go for either a Digital Bolex (S16 CCD) or Blackmagic Production Camera (S35 CMOS with slap-on global shutter), then. I'd love to have either one, (or both:), too, but can't afford either one right now. Hopefully in the not too distant future I'll have one.

[Oliver Daniel]

Well, what did you expect? After all, it's a full frame CMOS sensor camera. Of course it'll show some, especially if you wiggle it. Even APS-C and smaller size CMOS cameras have some rolling shutter issues. Some more, some less, but they all have some. I don't think expecting no rolling shutter from a FF CMOS (4K) sensor camera is entirely realistic, so far. Better to try finding ways to work around the problem.

 

 

You might want to go for either a Digital Bolex (S16 CCD) or Blackmagic Production Camera (S35 CMOS with slap-on global shutter), then. I'd love to have either one, (or both:), too, but can't afford either one right now. Hopefully in the not too distant future I'll have one.

 

I'm not one of those who writes off a camera because it has a rolling shutter. Most cameras can be stabilised enough to combat the issues you may face. I was a little alarmed at how bendy the footage looked with just a little movement on the A7S though.

 

My GH3 copes well when I'm throwing the camera angle around as if it was a toy - I think this full frame sensor would struggle in that regard. The M4/3 sensor works better in that regard. Just from the experience of using a RED Epic though, fast and jerky type movements are very difficult on a rolling shutter in 4k, very skewed, so for that type of work I do (rock music video), global shutter is the way to go. GH3 does the job though. 

 

Not a fan at all of the BMPC 4k, but I'm a big fan of the Digital Bolex. Going to be testing one out for a big project in the pipeline. 

[Quirky]

I think this full frame sensor would struggle in that regard. The M4/3 sensor works better in that regard. Just from the experience of using a RED Epic though, fast and jerky type movements are very difficult on a rolling shutter in 4k, very skewed, so for that type of work I do (rock music video), global shutter is the way to go. GH3 does the job though. 

 

I wonder how long, or how many camera generations still do we have to wait until most cameras sold for video have a global shutter or something else to eliminate the rolling shutter issue. One could think a thing like that would be a high priority, but apparently it isn't, or it is very hard to battle. 

Another thing I sometimes wonder is how hard could it be to come up with a S35-sized CCD sensor camera with a reasonable price tag. Like a D35, for example. That would be something, wouldn't it, although it might not have a reasonable price tag.

 

Not a fan at all of the BMPC 4k, but I'm a big fan of the Digital Bolex. Going to be testing one out for a big project in the pipeline. 

 

Please remember to share your experiences with the other wannabe D16 shooters here when you get to that.

[Imaginate]

The dynamic range looks incredible, but the rolling shutter looked terrible.

I do a lot of 'jump in' handheld work, so I don't think this camera would be an ideal upgrade. Need to see more.

I've seen enough. Unless you're shooting House of Cards the rolling shutter looks to render this camera pretty much unusable in a majority of real world shooting situations.  The high base ISO on S-Log is going to cause all kinds of problems shooting ANYTHING with fast lenses too. A maxed out variable ND filter or heavy 1.8+ will be minimum for F1.2-4 in any kind of decent light.  I shot in a factory last week on my GH4 and I never went above ISO 400(shooting at F1.8-8). Would have been a major pain to have swap out an ND every single time I had to change lenses and having a big ole matte box is a pain for a Run N Gun operation. 

 

Seems like a great camera...on paper, but the real world hassles don't justify the cost and the workarounds to get a good image.  Typical Sony!

[Inazuma]

If you're "run and gunning" you won't really be swapping lenses anyway. So just buy one 10-stop ND filter and maybe add a vari ND.

 

I don't know how bad the rolling shutter is compared to the 5D, but I've seen films with a lot of action, such as The Raid, where you can see things bending whenever the camera moved fast. However, the rolling shutter didn't really harm the fast paced movements at all.

[Husah]

The dynamic range with SLog will totally blow the crap out of GH4, as well as low light performance, probably 4 stop advantage in video mode. 

 

I would like to see 5D III raw vs A7s Slog

 

Even Alexa has rolling shutter. 

[Oliver Daniel]

I wonder how long, or how many camera generations still do we have to wait until most cameras sold for video have a global shutter or something else to eliminate the rolling shutter issue. One could think a thing like that would be a high priority, but apparently it isn't, or it is very hard to battle. 

Another thing I sometimes wonder is how hard could it be to come up with a S35-sized CCD sensor camera with a reasonable price tag. Like a D35, for example. That would be something, wouldn't it, although it might not have a reasonable price tag.

 

 

Please remember to share your experiences with the other wannabe D16 shooters here when you get to that.

 

 

Rolling shutter has never really bothered me that much. It started to bother me when I used the BMPCC a little, annoyed me when I used a RED Epic for the first time in 4k (then had to change my style to compensate which friends/clients didn't like) and then saw the A7S rolling shutter just then.....what would it be like in 4k? Probably far worse?

 

So I think this is evidently the proper first time I'm bothered by rolling shutter. Can't change my style because thats what my clients buy into. So from the looks of it...... no A7S for me. I'll rent if it suits the task. Moving on...

 

The Digital Bolex... I'll do my best with the request. Just got a long way to go in the process of everything. There is no need for manufacturers to put in global shutters when rolling seems to 'be fine.' The Bolex is a cinema camera so it makes sense. A7S is stills.... don't think they would have the 'S' in the name if it had global shutter.  :P

[dfreerider]

Rolling shutter has never really bothered me that much. It started to bother me when I used the BMPCC a little, annoyed me when I used a RED Epic for the first time in 4k (then had to change my style to compensate which friends/clients didn't like) and then saw the A7S rolling shutter just then.....what would it be like in 4k? Probably far worse?

 

This is speculation until someone actually tests it, but iMO the rolling shutter will be same in 4K. Since the sensor does a full readout with no line skipping or pixel binning for both FF 4K and 1080p the rolling shutter should be the same. 

[aldolega]

I wonder how long, or how many camera generations still do we have to wait until most cameras sold for video have a global shutter or something else to eliminate the rolling shutter issue. One could think a thing like that would be a high priority, but apparently it isn't, or it is very hard to battle.

It's just an engineering challenge I believe. There would actually be significant stills advantages too- faster flash sync, silent shooting all the time, and I'm sure camera makers would love to forego the expense of a mechanical shutter mechanism.

Unfortunately as of right now it seems the global shutter circuitry just compromises the sensor's performance too much. I think a compromise-free global shutter is at least five years out.