LOG, IBIS, 10bit, AF, does it really make for better footage?

[Andrew Reid]

LOG

For me there is no substitute to What You See Is What You Get. Whenever I shoot LOG I tend to forget to look at tonality and contrast. Sometimes even a limit on dynamic range is useful because it forces you to prioritise which part of the frame to expose for. Whenever I shoot LOG I tend to get lazy and forget this. I do use a view assist when available or load a LUT onto the camera, but then you are postponing the judgement of what works for a scene to post. And what a fucking nightmare it is choosing LUTs and grading every shot differently in post, when you could have got it all right in camera, in the moment of the shoot! So LOG is overrated and a hinderance. RAW on the other hand, that's much nicer. You don't even need to grade RAW, you can just let the meta data handle it. If there is a white balance change that needs doing, you can do it without weird results. RAW is all about ultimate image quality so give me that over LOG any day.

IBIS

IBIS is king of ALL the lazy unmotivated camera movement we see today. It's a huge convenience doing away with a tripod, as well as the biggest single loss of the last 10 years! There is simply no substitute. Floaty, warpy, too smooth, too robotic, IBIS has it all in equal measure. The least cinematic camera feature you can choose beyond shooting it all in 30fps! Also when you are sticking something on a tripod that doesn't have IBIS like the Sigma Fp you are actually locked down into one frame. That really makes you think about the composition and refine it, because you're stuck with it! All my early stuff was shot on a tripod. I never recaptured that shooting style with IBIS. Even the slightest small movement detracts from the calmness of a locked down shot. With IBIS you can only fake a locked down shot and everyone knows you couldn't really be arsed to do it properly!

10bit

It is hailed as the biggest new feature of modern times and everybody shits on 8bit, but whenever I put the final images side by side from a decent 8bit codec and a modern 10bit one, why do they always look the fucking same?

AF

A bit like IBIS autofocus is a great shot getter when you're rushing and making a hack of it. I used to use a single S-AF to grab focus before locking it on the GH2 and recording the unfolding scene with the focus not moving. Short of hiring a professional Hollywood focus puller that is the best any of us can do, because as soon as you hand things over to the camera you may as well call it a home movie and be done with it. Oops it's shifted to the background. Oops it's wobbling. Oops the subject has moved but the focus hasn't. Ooops that's not what I meant. Autofocus is an affront to filmmaking. The best AF is too perfect. Nails the subject in focus with no human intention behind the focus pull. If I see another gimbal shot with autofocus I will kill myself.

So just to sum up...

Maybe we could have an EOSHD challenge...

No LOG, no 10bit, no IBIS, no AF, just a tripod, you, a manual focus lens and a camera like the Sigma Fp or Samsung NX1?

Let's see how the results look compared to the next day when we all go back to the usual modern style of shooting!

And pick the best!

[BTM_Pix]

But her emails ?

[FHDcrew]

17 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

But her emails ?

I literally don’t understand what you mean. 

[FHDcrew]

46 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

LOG

For me there is no substitute to What You See Is What You Get. Whenever I shoot LOG I tend to forget to look at tonality and contrast. Sometimes even a limit on dynamic range is useful because it forces you to prioritise which part of the frame to expose for. Whenever I shoot LOG I tend to get lazy and forget this. I do use a view assist when available or load a LUT onto the camera, but then you are postponing the judgement of what works for a scene to post. And what a fucking nightmare it is choosing LUTs and grading every shot differently in post, when you could have got it all right in camera, in the moment of the shoot! So LOG is overrated and a hinderance. RAW on the other hand, that's much nicer. You don't even need to grade RAW, you can just let the meta data handle it. If there is a white balance change that needs doing, you can do it without weird results. RAW is all about ultimate image quality so give me that over LOG any day.

IBIS

IBIS is king of ALL the lazy unmotivated camera movement we see today. It's a huge convenience doing away with a tripod, as well as the biggest single loss of the last 10 years! There is simply no substitute. Floaty, warpy, too smooth, too robotic, IBIS has it all in equal measure. The least cinematic camera feature you can choose beyond shooting it all in 30fps! Also when you are sticking something on a tripod that doesn't have IBIS like the Sigma Fp you are actually locked down into one frame. That really makes you think about the composition and refine it, because you're stuck with it! All my early stuff was shot on a tripod. I never recaptured that shooting style with IBIS. Even the slightest small movement detracts from the calmness of a locked down shot. With IBIS you can only fake a locked down shot and everyone knows you couldn't really be arsed to do it properly!

10bit

It is hailed as the biggest new feature of modern times and everybody shits on 8bit, but whenever I put the final images side by side from a decent 8bit codec and a modern 10bit one, why do they always look the fucking same?

AF

A bit like IBIS autofocus is a great shot getter when you're rushing and making a hack of it. I used to use a single S-AF to grab focus before locking it on the GH2 and recording the unfolding scene with the focus not moving. Short of hiring a professional Hollywood focus puller that is the best any of us can do, because as soon as you hand things over to the camera you may as well call it a home movie and be done with it. Oops it's shifted to the background. Oops it's wobbling. Oops the subject has moved but the focus hasn't. Ooops that's not what I meant. Autofocus is an affront to filmmaking. The best AF is too perfect. Nails the subject in focus with no human intention behind the focus pull. If I see another gimbal shot with autofocus I will kill myself.

So just to sum up...

Maybe we could have an EOSHD challenge...

No LOG, no 10bit, no IBIS, no AF, just a tripod, you, a manual focus lens and a camera like the Sigma Fp or Samsung NX1?

Let's see how the results look compared to the next day when we all go back to the usual modern style of shooting!

And pick the best!

You have some good points here!  The tripod is very underrated. You know what else is underrated?  A good old fashioned camera slider. You can’t get that look out of a gimbal no matter how hard you try. I do agree there is an element of organicness in manual focus!  And I know old Sony color is hated upon by all, but back in the A7iii days when all we had was 8 bit S-Log 2 it still looked fine, things did seem to hold together and many of the downfalls to 8 bit became invisible when uploaded to YouTube…or should I say the benefits to 10 bit did, because either way even if you upload in 8k and shoot it in REDCODE RAW the final product still ends up in banding city!  With all that being said, I think I do notice the difference of log, especially for us run-and-gun event shooter who like to control their lighting, but can’t always and often have to shoot an outdoor event in the middle of the day without a cloud in the sky. Standard or “flat” picture profiles fall apart in this setting while log helps hold things together. It’s no substitute for proper lighting but I personally see the difference. 

[FHDcrew]

51 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

LOG

For me there is no substitute to What You See Is What You Get. Whenever I shoot LOG I tend to forget to look at tonality and contrast. Sometimes even a limit on dynamic range is useful because it forces you to prioritise which part of the frame to expose for. Whenever I shoot LOG I tend to get lazy and forget this. I do use a view assist when available or load a LUT onto the camera, but then you are postponing the judgement of what works for a scene to post. And what a fucking nightmare it is choosing LUTs and grading every shot differently in post, when you could have got it all right in camera, in the moment of the shoot! So LOG is overrated and a hinderance. RAW on the other hand, that's much nicer. You don't even need to grade RAW, you can just let the meta data handle it. If there is a white balance change that needs doing, you can do it without weird results. RAW is all about ultimate image quality so give me that over LOG any day.

IBIS

IBIS is king of ALL the lazy unmotivated camera movement we see today. It's a huge convenience doing away with a tripod, as well as the biggest single loss of the last 10 years! There is simply no substitute. Floaty, warpy, too smooth, too robotic, IBIS has it all in equal measure. The least cinematic camera feature you can choose beyond shooting it all in 30fps! Also when you are sticking something on a tripod that doesn't have IBIS like the Sigma Fp you are actually locked down into one frame. That really makes you think about the composition and refine it, because you're stuck with it! All my early stuff was shot on a tripod. I never recaptured that shooting style with IBIS. Even the slightest small movement detracts from the calmness of a locked down shot. With IBIS you can only fake a locked down shot and everyone knows you couldn't really be arsed to do it properly!

10bit

It is hailed as the biggest new feature of modern times and everybody shits on 8bit, but whenever I put the final images side by side from a decent 8bit codec and a modern 10bit one, why do they always look the fucking same?

AF

A bit like IBIS autofocus is a great shot getter when you're rushing and making a hack of it. I used to use a single S-AF to grab focus before locking it on the GH2 and recording the unfolding scene with the focus not moving. Short of hiring a professional Hollywood focus puller that is the best any of us can do, because as soon as you hand things over to the camera you may as well call it a home movie and be done with it. Oops it's shifted to the background. Oops it's wobbling. Oops the subject has moved but the focus hasn't. Ooops that's not what I meant. Autofocus is an affront to filmmaking. The best AF is too perfect. Nails the subject in focus with no human intention behind the focus pull. If I see another gimbal shot with autofocus I will kill myself.

So just to sum up...

Maybe we could have an EOSHD challenge...

No LOG, no 10bit, no IBIS, no AF, just a tripod, you, a manual focus lens and a camera like the Sigma Fp or Samsung NX1?

Let's see how the results look compared to the next day when we all go back to the usual modern style of shooting!

And pick the best!

Shame my Nikon Z6 does 10 beats then lol!  But I could always shoot 8 bit internally in Nikon Flat, and disable autofocus/IBIS. Would that count?

[FHDcrew]

Alternatively I could break out my old Panasonic G7 and Meike 25mm 1.7 manual lens. Bare bones indeed…

Just now, FHDcrew said:

Shame my Nikon Z6 does 10 beats then lol!  But I could always shoot 8 bit internally in Nikon Flat, and disable autofocus/IBIS. Would that count?

 

[BTM_Pix]

2 hours ago, FHDcrew said:

I literally don’t understand what you mean. 

It refers to the reflexive and tedious whataboutery responses on forums when someone mentions a camera that doesn't have some or all of the features listed in the original post.

In most cases the dismissal of the camera in question based on these omissions is also based on zero actual direct experience with it.

[FHDcrew]

2 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

It refers to the reflexive and tedious whataboutery responses on forums when someone mentions a camera that doesn't have some or all of the features listed in the original post.

In most cases it is also based on zero direct experience with the camera in question.

Neat, thanks for the explanatiin

[Andrew Reid]

I hear Trump is a huge fan of IBIS especially on his gun sight when the FBI come knocking.

[BTM_Pix]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

IBIS

Always interests me how not having IBIS in a camera is seen as a red line compromise that people absolutely don't want to make and yet the unpredictable and permanent damage to the actual image itself that it can and does cause is not seen as a red line compromise.

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

AF

A suite of tools to assist you focusing is all thats required and most cameras have had the minimum requisite ones for years. 

Focus zones, focus point memories, range limiters and other elements should be being developed instead of chasing after this continuing and unrealistic expectation by users for some sort of sentient AF system.

Great, your new Sony A7mark888 now has that cat's arse AF detection mode you have been demanding for five years....Are your films any the better for it and what about the ones you didn't make whilst waiting for it because you couldn't possibly make a film where you had to manually focus on the cat's arse.

 

 

[BTM_Pix]

1 minute ago, Andrew Reid said:

I hear Trump is a huge fan of IBIS especially on his gun sight when the FBI come knocking.

More a case of IBS rather than IBIS as I'm sure he has been shitting himself ever since.

[Matt Kieley]

I never use IBIS to replace a tripod or slider, but I love it as a glidecame/steadicam replacement. As long as I walk heel-to-toe as I would with a glidecam I can get the same look/effect. I've gotten into minimizing my equipment down to what I can fit in a backpack/the trunk of my Chevy Malibu so not having to bring a glidecam and fiddle with it is a plus for me.

Log I'm kinda with you on. I think I may only use it for paid video work where I might not have control over the lighting, but for narrative film work where I do have that control, I think I prefer shooting in Rec709 and getting the look mostly in-camera. Ever since I had a Panasonic G7, Cinelike V has been my preference for in-camera color. Here's a grab from some recent test footage shot with the GH5 in CineV and graded in FilmConvert Nitrate:

Although 10 bit I feel is helpful for avoiding banding and other artifacts. 

I started making movies in 2000 with Hi8 and VHS-C cameras that had shitty AF, so I never used it. The DVX100 had bad AF, and 35mm still cameras I shot with had unreliable AF as I recall, so I got good at manual focusing. I've never felt the need for AF.

[fuzzynormal]

I like IBIS for run-n-gun-handheld standard talking head corporate work. Takes the edge off footage and makes it palatable for clients.  I also abuse the hell out of slow-mo for corporate work.  For instance, stuff like this:

I definitely don't like it for more cinematic work.  Shot one of my latest docs with it and I was, like, "Nope, not doing that again."

AF? I don't care to worry about it.  Manual focusing just looks cool and I'm half way decent with pulling it, so I'll stick with MF.

[newfoundmass]

To me IBIS is a God send because my kind of work is fast paced and as such I need to match that pace. IBIS gives me a fighting chance to get stabilized shots filming unpredictable movement, like you'll get in pro-wrestling. 

The rest though I agree fully on.  

[MrSMW]

Log: Hate working with it, hate grading it. Flat profile all the time with me and previously Eterna with XT3. I would like to give raw a try for certain things, but not all the time due to storage really. But otherwise Flat profile with a few manual tweaks and a light grade with Filmconvert Nitrate.

IBIS: XT3 used to be tripod all the time and I actually prefer the completely locked off shot…but it’s not practical for my work, so IBIS it is. 

10 bit: I don’t mind 8 bit and use it a lot with my S1R’s in 4k 50p, but trickier stuff like couples at sunset, 10 bit definitely shows it the way.

AF: The only time I use it these days is for forward tracking and acquiring initial focus, otherwise manual. This is more because I don’t fully trust the Lumix AF and there are situations, important ones, where I need to trust it. My next system, whatever it is, must have great AF.

I’d be up for a challenge but realistically, Jan soonest as my workload for the rest of the year is 🤪

 

[Thpriest]

Log: can't be bothered with it and my S1 and S5 have nice images in Natural or Cine D

IBIS: I don't film "films" anymore. I film corporate stuff, events and weddings. IBIS is king. Love it although you need to know it's limits. If I'm filming interviews I use a tripod whenever possible. I have a gimbal if necessary but I prefer not use it.

10 bit: I prefer it and as it's no bother using it on the Panasonics then it's a big plus.

AF: I use the same method you used with the GH2. In saying that, I'd like the option of good AF on my Panasonics as sometimes it's useful. What I'd really like is a S1Hmk2 with a really bright and sharp 4-5 inch screen included so that I could MF without an extra monitor.

The biggest game changer for me has been IBIS.

[MrSMW]

41 minutes ago, Thpriest said:

The biggest game changer for me has been IBIS

Ditto. It’s the one thing on this list that I couldn’t really do without now and has been one of those ‘game changer’ things they talk about.

Tripod was slow, monopod faster but still not as quick and portable as my own two hands.

 

[Thpriest]

Exactly, it's about speed. There's no other way to get loads of different shots in a short period of time.

[Benjamin Hilton]

18 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

LOG

For me there is no substitute to What You See Is What You Get. Whenever I shoot LOG I tend to forget to look at tonality and contrast. Sometimes even a limit on dynamic range is useful because it forces you to prioritise which part of the frame to expose for. Whenever I shoot LOG I tend to get lazy and forget this. I do use a view assist when available or load a LUT onto the camera, but then you are postponing the judgement of what works for a scene to post. And what a fucking nightmare it is choosing LUTs and grading every shot differently in post, when you could have got it all right in camera, in the moment of the shoot! So LOG is overrated and a hinderance. RAW on the other hand, that's much nicer. You don't even need to grade RAW, you can just let the meta data handle it. If there is a white balance change that needs doing, you can do it without weird results. RAW is all about ultimate image quality so give me that over LOG any day.

IBIS

IBIS is king of ALL the lazy unmotivated camera movement we see today. It's a huge convenience doing away with a tripod, as well as the biggest single loss of the last 10 years! There is simply no substitute. Floaty, warpy, too smooth, too robotic, IBIS has it all in equal measure. The least cinematic camera feature you can choose beyond shooting it all in 30fps! Also when you are sticking something on a tripod that doesn't have IBIS like the Sigma Fp you are actually locked down into one frame. That really makes you think about the composition and refine it, because you're stuck with it! All my early stuff was shot on a tripod. I never recaptured that shooting style with IBIS. Even the slightest small movement detracts from the calmness of a locked down shot. With IBIS you can only fake a locked down shot and everyone knows you couldn't really be arsed to do it properly!

10bit

It is hailed as the biggest new feature of modern times and everybody shits on 8bit, but whenever I put the final images side by side from a decent 8bit codec and a modern 10bit one, why do they always look the fucking same?

AF

A bit like IBIS autofocus is a great shot getter when you're rushing and making a hack of it. I used to use a single S-AF to grab focus before locking it on the GH2 and recording the unfolding scene with the focus not moving. Short of hiring a professional Hollywood focus puller that is the best any of us can do, because as soon as you hand things over to the camera you may as well call it a home movie and be done with it. Oops it's shifted to the background. Oops it's wobbling. Oops the subject has moved but the focus hasn't. Ooops that's not what I meant. Autofocus is an affront to filmmaking. The best AF is too perfect. Nails the subject in focus with no human intention behind the focus pull. If I see another gimbal shot with autofocus I will kill myself.

So just to sum up...

Maybe we could have an EOSHD challenge...

No LOG, no 10bit, no IBIS, no AF, just a tripod, you, a manual focus lens and a camera like the Sigma Fp or Samsung NX1?

Let's see how the results look compared to the next day when we all go back to the usual modern style of shooting!

And pick the best!

Andrew I think some of this is right, but it really depends on what kind of films you are doing and what kind of workflow you use. I shoot documentary films and for me most of these features if used properly are a Godsend. You are right though, the way most people use them they might as well be a potato. For me, I have a magic color science LUT I use for most of my projects. I load it up in my monitor and shoot 10 bit log on my S1. When I get to post, I drop the same LUT on and do some minor adjustments, pretty easy. This is a look I couldn't get in camera no matter how hard I tried. Again, 10 bit is necessary for this workflow as 8 bit falls apart in log on the s1. But if you are shooting casual films with a baked in profile, then 8 bit should work fine. Just depends on what look you prefer. 

I do a lot of tripod and steady cam work where IBIS isn't' necessary. But for handheld work, I just can't get over how useful it is sometimes. I can be in the middle of a 10 minute take where my arms are giving out. In the old days my footage would start to get really shaky, but these days I can depend on the IBIS to cover for me. For me it isn't that IBIS is a bad tool, it's just been a problem of people trying to replace traditional tools with it. IF instead of replacing traditional tools, people use it alongside traditional tools, then it becomes magical. 

 

Auto focus is another tool that all depends on how you use it. If you take the time to learn it properly and use it correctly, it is immensely useful. Knowing how to setup smooth subject tracking, manually stop it when needed, and tell it how hard to stick to a subject can produce amazing results. But same as the IBIS thing, it has to be used properly along side of traditional tools, knowing when to use it and when to let it rest, and putting the time into learning how to use it properly. 

 

I guess all that to say that all of of these tools are amazing in and of themselves if used at their full potential. But you are right, most people don't use them properly and they just become an excuse for laziness. 

[Andrew Reid]

20 minutes ago, Benjamin Hilton said:

I guess all that to say that all of of these tools are amazing in and of themselves if used at their full potential.

I agree with you, I think these are all very useful tools, makes shooting faster, easier and gets you a shot you might otherwise miss.

The point I am making however is that none of these tools seem to look as good as the techniques they're making obsolete!

AF looks worse than a human focus puller / manual focus.

IBIS looks worse than a tripod.

And 10bit looks about the same as 8bit most of the time.

As for LOG it does often look very good but it all depends how good you are at grading it. I remember when it first came into the mainstream (with SLOG on A7S) and 90% of what was shot this way looked worse than a standard rec.709 profile, but I guess that's not LOG's fault!