sunyata Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Animated color correction cheat sheet using plot scanlines.. This source footage was shot on Arri Alexa and taken off the 2k 10bit 4:2:2 master. For their surveillance footage they used: Canon 7D, GoPro HD Hero, Sony PMW-EX1 Bioskop.Inc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgharding Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 I've been getting all kinds of raw GH4 footage using all kinds of settings from kind donors and searching online, and I'm finding it kind of "contrasty", like the actual contrast is very baked in, whatever the settings in camera, and whatever you do in post. You can lift blacks and wash them out, but you can't pull up the detail. Highlights and darks clip out hard, and as a result you can't do as much look tweaking as I was expecting, everything bunched at the bottom or top just kind of sticks there look wise.... Despite the much higher bitrate it's not as flexible as even C300 footage I don't think. Does this balance with other peoples' experiences? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bioskop.Inc Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 I've been getting all kinds of raw GH4 footage using all kinds of settings from kind donors and searching online, and I'm finding it kind of "contrasty", like the actual contrast is very baked in, whatever the settings in camera, and whatever you do in post. You can lift blacks and wash them out, but you can't pull up the detail. Highlights and darks clip out hard, and as a result you can't do as much look tweaking as I was expecting, everything bunched at the bottom or top just kind of sticks there look wise.... Despite the much higher bitrate it's not as flexible as even C300 footage I don't think. Does this balance with other peoples' experiences? Yep, I've noticed this too - it does feel like taking a huge stepforward & 3 steps back. However, it could be user error? Maybe? Does seem that you need to pretty much nail it in-camera & then ever so slightly tweek in post - its a DSLR after all. I'm glad i got my Pocket - its been a bit of a bitch of a re-learning curve, but it all seems to have come back to me in the end. Funnily enough i've even filmed something on my 60D recently - just seemed like a logical choice. In a years time there will be a much better choice for 4K, no real point jumping on half-baked first runs each time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgharding Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 I've taken some of Andrew's clips, Phillip Bloom's, a few others I've found online and users have been kind enough to give me. Despite the high bitrate there is a lot of codec blocking at higher ISOs or when using iDynamic, the noise level is pretty disappointing, both from the sensor and codec. I feel the clipping hard is a sensor-level issue. there's nothing to be done for it in camera settings or post. I've seen plenty of footage as flat as can be, nowhere near the top or bottom, and stil it looks contrasty once you expand it. The stuff that isn't shot flat starts contrasty and stays there. I try to lift the low end of the shadows or high end of highlights, but there's just no rolloff at all. lift the low end and it goes washy and flat, drop the high and it goes dead. It's disappointing :/ Dynamic range figures alone are not really helpfull, the distribution of this range is very important. I really love grading, I don't desire the sharpness or resolution, so I don't think this camera is for me. I feel you really do need to get it very close in-camera with GH4 Yesterday I directed a green screen shoot with C300 recording to Sound Devices Pix 240i with ProRes HQ. The quality is lovely, rich with super clean colour. Makes me even more excited to try C100 and Ninja! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Yep, I've noticed this too - it does feel like taking a huge stepforward & 3 steps back. However, it could be user error? Maybe? Does seem that you need to pretty much nail it in-camera & then ever so slightly tweek in post - its a DSLR after all. I'm glad i got my Pocket - its been a bit of a bitch of a re-learning curve, but it all seems to have come back to me in the end. Funnily enough i've even filmed something on my 60D recently - just seemed like a logical choice. In a years time there will be a much better choice for 4K, no real point jumping on half-baked first runs each time. @Bioskop.Inc JG Harding may have some valid points (I really enjoyed watching his videos over at Vimeo), but calling Panasonic's GH4 half-baked - preposterous! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgharding Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Of course, there's still a chance the YAGH or using the HDMI out could help, though I have a feeling it's at sensor level, but I'm sure we'll find out... Generally taking a feed out doesn't change the clipping characteristics, it's just allowing lower artefacting and codec noise, sometimes it can alter setup level and so on if the camera allows super-whites and the recorder does not, for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunyata Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 I've read that there are several settings you need to consider that have to do with in-camera gamma levels, and you have to watch out for software that does not have a proper color space profile if you shot in full range 255 white levels rec 709.. as this can cause essentialy an expand to happen automatically when imported. I guess that is in fact the default mode? 255 whites in rec 709. Here is someone's recommended settings for low contrast: On the shots that seem to have too much contrast, you could try "clamping" between 16 and 235.. see it that helps, it could be the full range not being properly interpreted. Better yet would be to use the full range w/o clamping by creating a custom color space profile. This could prevent the super white problem on import. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgharding Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Hmmm perhaps this range setting in camera could indeed be something vital. I'd very much like to get hands-on myself and try it out through the full pipeline, so to speak. Certainly the shot around 28 seconds on grades well shadow wise, though it still exhibits that hard-clipped highlights. Interestingly that shot has 16 to 255, which is raised shadows but full range highlights... perhaps 16 - 235 is indeed the most important setting for getting rid of the contrasty feel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunyata Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 That's what a lot of people say, they say shoot in rec 709 studio swing i.e. legal ranges but I think the problem is happening on the read-in and not actually in the file. Panasonic put it in there for a reason, to allow more range out of the 4:2:0 settings, so something like a "rec709 full-range" color space profile to choose from in your software might be a better solution in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bioskop.Inc Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 @Bioskop.Inc JG Harding may have some valid points (I really enjoyed watching his videos over at Vimeo), but calling Panasonic's GH4 half-baked - preposterous! Perhaps half-baked was a little harsh (bit of a play on words there too - half-bake in your look in-camera) & i'm not saying its not a good camera, its just that its the first really affordable 4K cam that works for general purpose - so if you wait a while there will be better! External recording will probably be the way to go with the GH4 & Sony's offering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgharding Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 That's what a lot of people say, they say shoot in rec 709 studio swing i.e. legal ranges but I think the problem is happening on the read-in and not actually in the file. Panasonic put it in there for a reason, to allow more range out of the 4:2:0 settings, so something like a "rec709 full-range" color space profile to choose from in your software might be a better solution in the future. If you look at the "expand" example in my video, this is what i think some software is doing to rec709 with 255 levels. I think it's scaling all ranges into 16-235 and then expanding to sRGB for display, thereby increasing the contrast. Premiere will interpret supers correctly, so you can pull back illegal data without clipping. If you bump up the setup level in the C100/300 you can go way beyond legal, and just pull it back after import with Speedgrade or similar tools. That way you can record peaks way off the graph and get them back. If the GH4 allows 0-255 and 15-235 as options, I can't see how wrapping in 15-235 would give you more data. Surely it'd just squeeze the data into "legal" values and give you less? All the level shunting in the world in camera won't save it if the sensor or the whole pipeline together can't... Perhaps it's a consumer/pro thing, they still need to pay lip service to standard HDMI practice and so on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgharding Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 I'd like to get two files from somewhere: A high dynamic range image, shot both at 15-235 and 0-255, to see the difference in post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkanah77 Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Had a go with my newly aquired GH4 today. Took a short trip to local cemetery in bleeding harsh noon sunlight. Everything shot with the Nikkor 28mm 2.8 Ai-s and ND. Shot in 4K and cropped to 2K in AE. Graded with a lut only. Used James Millers settings with minor adjustments. Aspect set to 1:2.40 for the infamous "movie/film-aspect ratio". Sorry for only still images taken from the edit. Have not been able to render out yet, but wanted to share what I consider a fantastic value-for-money camera. I think it captures wonderful images I can't wait to explore it more. Inazuma and Loma Graphics Oy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgharding Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 They look very nice! Would you mind direct messaging me a link to some rushes please, with an idea of your settings? Of course, I won't be offended if not. I just like trying footage from different shooters to see if I can 'get' the camera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgharding Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 Thanks for the rushes elkanah77 Yes after playing with these I've got some results I'm happy with, it's a great camera. After using plenty of footage two GH4 caveats are: 1. the white clipping is hideous and hard, avoid the top of the histogram or suffer. 2. anything near the very bottom of your level, pedestal or otherwise can be hard to recover. go too high and you'll bake in flatness, so balance it well. It's a balancing act like all DSLRs. In general though, the most successful images have a relatively low contrast in the scene, it's better to add in a bit than take some out. Here's a little test I did with one of the graveyard rushes, I was happy with it. Password is test It seems to me like the camera requires very careful treatment when exposing and in post to get the best. Practice makes perfect... After plenty of practice I'd be happy to use it, but taking great care as to where I placed my midtones, and to reduce any highlights in the scene in real life if possible. Contrast reducing glass filters may be useful I wish they had a Panasonic LOG profile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgharding Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 As a result of all this testing I'm not sure of which B-cam... Blackmagic pocket or GH4? I enjoy grading the Blackmagic more, but GH4 is a more finished product, and adds high-speed (with moire) and 4K. I'd mainly 4K for reframing more than delivery. Then again raw DNG could be a lifesaver in some circumstances Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varicam Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 As a result of all this testing I'm not sure of which B-cam... Blackmagic pocket or GH4? I enjoy grading the Blackmagic more, but GH4 is a more finished product, and adds high-speed (with moire) and 4K. I'd mainly 4K for reframing more than delivery. Then again raw DNG could be a lifesaver in some circumstances You can't get both? BTW, what would be a decent contrast-reducing filter for the GH4? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgharding Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 I'd rather not buy so many bodies if I'm honest.... I'd try Tiffen Ultra Contrast 1 or 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgharding Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Some tests here, comments say it's not so good, but may be worth a try with GH4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgharding Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 This time he graded the files. I think someone should take the plunge and try it out ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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