jgharding Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 I'd love to share this optimism, but every single time a Sony camera is announced it looks like the best thing ever... on paper. Yes a 4K sensor can make amazing 1080, like in the Cxxx series.... but will it? With most of their products, when they're in our hands all the flaws and intentionally reduced features come to the fore. They just don't seem to make as 'complete' products as Canon. There are good paper features, but something lets them down... I'm not cynical, I'm just sceptical. or after so many years, perhaps realistic :S The lack of ND filters is annoying too. JohnBarlow and Christina Ava 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelbb Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 I'd love an affordable medium format. Say what you like, there's nothing compares to that look.... well... apart from large format ;) Medium format speed booster for A7S anyone? I suppose that Nikon or Canon moving into medium format digital could be a logical step if they made something more affordable than the 50 megapixel Hasselblad. 18 megapixel might be 'good enough' but people are always going to want something bigger/faster/better than just 'good enough'. $15K+ for a medium format camera will be too rich for most but one at $5-7K could be a big seller to professionals & aspiring amateurs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damphousse Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 i agree about sensor size, and m4/3 for is considered by many "junk format" and a step back(me included, how can you go from FF to m43?). But i dont believe the sales are not hurt by the GH4 i know at least 3 people that where gearing up to buy the mark iii and switched to GH4 last minute. And when i say "people" i mean video people. I just don't think as a fraction of the total video people make up that big a portion of the 5D mk III customer base. Canon has their whole cinema line of cameras to protect. Giving up a few 5D mk III sales to protect that successful franchise makes business sense. I really wish the GH4 would shock Canon into action, but I'm not too optomistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tugela Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 But the market is not how people used their cameras in the past, it is how they will use them in the future. And I think it is very obvious that the future is the integrated imaging system for all but high end professional cameras. Modern cameras will be expected by the average consumer to handle stills and video equally well. Companies who don't buy into that are going to find themselves restricted to the professional market, while more forward thinking competitors will own the consumer and prosumer markets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damphousse Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 But the market is not how people used their cameras in the past, it is how they will use them in the future. And I think it is very obvious that the future is the integrated imaging system for all but high end professional cameras. Modern cameras will be expected by the average consumer to handle stills and video equally well. Companies who don't buy into that are going to find themselves restricted to the professional market, while more forward thinking competitors will own the consumer and prosumer markets. Canon has sold a ton of video enabled DSLRs. Despite knowing a handful of photo enthusists I have almost never seen anyone use the video fuctions on their DSLRs. I have literally seen people with a DSLR in their bag whip out an iphone and shoot a video. And I have never seen someone sit down and use a NLE. Many of my friends who happily photoshop on their old computers don't even have the horse power to run adobe premiere. Those people aren't going to use raw nor edit 4k. There is a market for all this stuff but it sadly does not trickle down to the average consumer. Canon will not come out with 4k in a prosumer camera nor fix their moire/aliasing crap for years. They are the number one DSLR seller in the world. I don't expect that to change and I don't expect them to change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanveer Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 I guess if Canon does not genuinely innovate and allow technology to trickle down to its mass buyers as oposed to the Niche C500 buyers, its headed for extinction. Also, apparently, in sensor technology Canon hasn't really innovated in the last half decade. Almost At All. Only on paper, not in actual field tests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest d5f8611fa423d0e628c016f9d5c93b47 Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 The fact is that filmmakers are always going to eventually gravitate toward mirrorless cameras (or all-out video cameras). So the question is not really "when are Canon going to focus on consumer/prosumer video", it's much more "when will Canon be forced to put out a professional DSLM". It has to happen someday. The A7 may have already shocked them into action. By the time it does happen the video features will no doubt be very desirable (C100 quality on a hybrid?). But DSLR's are very fashionable/loved amongst both pro's and amateurs, and obviously keeping the C-line and DSLR market separate is making Canon a lot of money. I don't think Panasonic will ever pose a threat to Canon's HDSLR's. Micro Four Third sensors will always be seen as limited, particularly for stills. Personally I wish Panasonic would give us a consumer priced, video-only camera with in-camera 1080p 10-bit 4:2:2 from a M43 sensor. Basically a BMPCC with GH-line functionality and sensor size. A built in ND would be nice too. I've been trying to convince myself that the GH4 is that camera in a round-about way, but it really isn't. The GH4 is a lovely camera, but out of the box, low light, DR and grading options just don't match the Pocket. I don't even hold out much hope for the A7S in terms of colour and 'gradeability', but we shall see ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulf Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 They will listen and will react, but only if you are moving away. Historically, C and N had made most of their money with cheap plastic bodies. No real innovation? Even better, as long as the people during the DSLR boom were running for overaged technology, there was no need for expensive - and maybe risky - innovation. It was a winning team. Sensor and chip producing is about quantity, mass production, 'quantity even having its own quality', to paraphrase Stalin. Run as long the casting moulds will allow to form the plastic and if worn out, make a relaunch of the same stuff with a slightly different design. A lot of, maybe even most of the customers would even never ever chance their kit lense... For a good reason, because a lot of them would not distinguish the difference between bad and good glass, at least not in their own pictures with the artificial boosted oversaturation. How many really good photogs did you know? :-) As said, most people never ever even touch the movie recording button. How many Cine Cams did C sell in comparsion? Did you know one personally who own one? Why not? An expensive tool, and if not needed everyday it's better to rent one. What profs would do. Art is expression. Don't tell me you can't communicate with your D5H4 or whatever. It's not the gear nowadays.Look at the sh1t quality of tv. Not even full HD. And thanks God that is the standard. YOU see the difference, but not your customer if you could make him proud with your footage. It's all about emotion, the story you want to tell. Yes, a certain camera brand is like a love affair... Yeah, I know: the endless hours, the experience, the hard work, to get exactly this look. The search for a lense which could transport exactly that feeling. And oh, why they did not hear me? Get rich of it, if she/he don't listen. The only lingo they understand is money. They are stupid, ugly **** - they did not deserve you. If you really need a cine cam today, rent one. Or steal one. To expensive, to dangerous? Then you did not need one probably. In history, film has always been one of the very most innovative trades. Like war. The innovation must come from you, not out of the box. If you don't make it now, it would not happen. You want this fcking cinecam? Earn it. Christina Ava and nib187 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzynormal Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 You want this fcking cinecam? Earn it. Heck of a rant, but I'll agree with it. The tech to realize cinematic art is cheap and easy now. Almost anything you can buy can render a great image if you know the craft of it all. However, when one is overly involved with worrying about the tech, they're missing opportunities to be artistic. Being artistic is hard though. Buying cool camera stuff is easy. jpfilmz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelbb Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 http://vimeo.com/m/93513958 Also, apparently, in sensor technology Canon hasn't really innovated in the last half decade. Almost At All. Only on paper, not in actual field tests. You seem to have forgotten about the C300 sensor that then trickled down into the C100. It gives outstanding quality, resolution & dynamic range at an affordable price. Six years ago when I started shooting professional video it was with a Canon XH-A1 that was then equivalent in price to what a C100 is today. The XH-A1 was a great camera but the C100 is better in so many ways & it's all down to Canon's innovation especially with the sensor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanveer Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 You seem to have forgotten about the C300 sensor that then trickled down into the C100. It gives outstanding quality, resolution & dynamic range at an affordable price. Six years ago when I started shooting professional video it was with a Canon XH-A1 that was then equivalent in price to what a C100 is today. The XH-A1 was a great camera but the C100 is better in so many ways & it's all down to Canon's innovation especially with the sensor. It's not about making a good camera. That the Canon did not just with the expensive yet well-features 5D Mark ii, it did it with the 550D and that range of much cheaper cameras. For most Indie Filmmakers, especially those not making Features, it was more than sufficient to pick up any of the cheaper range of Canon DSLRs shooting in Full HD. The C100, C300 and C500 is a completely different target audience. And, it does have advantages over regular DSLR video (Flatter Colour Profile, Higher Dynamic Range and Higher ISO). But the C100 starts at $5500 (for Dual Pixel) for AVCHD which doesn't even do 60fps, and the C300 does 60fps at 720p, and costs $14000. While these cameras are good for broadcast standards, they don't really cut it for Filmmaking (more due to the fact, that that there are emerging cameras like BlackMagic and others, which are far better for coloring and grading and cost a fraction of the cost of the Canon's Cinema Range). The Panasonic GH4 and the Sony A7S are the future of Independent Filmmaking, especially for productions will smaller budgets. The Canon Cinema range, is almost there. Though not quite precisely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Ava Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 with todays news of the new panasonic doing 4K at 800 euros...well canon will start having headaches. as Marshall McLuhan said everytime there is a new technology- media introduced it causes " the tetrad effect" i wonder how 4K has affected and will affect everyhing. soon cameras without a 4K feature will look like cars without a right side mirror.(remember that?) ot left if you where in the UK. What does it enhance?What does it make obsolete?What does it retrieve that had been obsolesced earlier?What does it flip into when pushed to extremes?†Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damphousse Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 with todays news of the new panasonic doing 4K at 800 euros...well canon will start having headaches. as Marshall McLuhan said everytime there is a new technology- media introduced it causes " the tetrad effect" i wonder how 4K has affected and will affect everyhing. soon cameras without a 4K feature will look like cars without a right side mirror.(remember that?) ot left if you where in the UK. What does it enhance?What does it make obsolete?What does it retrieve that had been obsolesced earlier?What does it flip into when pushed to extremes?†Yeah. Now this is interesting. I still think the average consumer doesn't have the horse power nor the displays to view 4k. Not that many people realize viewing 4k on a sub HD monitor still looks great. But I think the time is rapidly coming where 4k will be the new buzz word. It will be kind of like megapixel in the good ol' days. I mean today no one really noticed the fact Samsung put out a phone with 4k recording capabilities. On the phone forums no one is clamouring for it. But eventually they will. Canon in my mind still has time. I think what may happen is Canon may adopt a "doughnut" strategy. Meaning they already have 4k on their high end cameras and they will probably enable it on their low end (ie nonDSLR) cameras in the near future. At the same time they will leave all their sub $3,000 DSLRs stuck at 1080p... or whatever they claim their cameras output. It wouldn't be the first time we've seen a trickle up of features with Canon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest d5f8611fa423d0e628c016f9d5c93b47 Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Argh, Christina! EOSHD is my refuge from critical theory! You've invaded my sanctuary! No more, please!!! :D Christina Ava 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damphousse Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 I have to say though the guy that made that video is a clown. I have not used any of Samsung's 4k enabled cellphones but I can say from other cell phones I've used moire/aliasing and rolling shutter are a big concern. Also there is the issue of compression. That video was just designed to show the strenghts of the Samsung phone. Only one shot really showed one of it's fatal flaws. The DR shot looked nice on the 5D mk III raw and it looked terrible on the Note III. I would have also liked to have seen a moire/aliasing test and a rolling shutter test. He also chose not to do any grading or use an optimal lens on the 5D. The Note III video is really remarkable but that was not a fair nor complete test. Almost forgot. He said he used "flat" settings on the 5D mk III. I assume he also meant sharpening dialed way down. Well the sharpening on the Note III he left on auto which I can only assume means dialed way up to "Consumer sharp." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandro Posted June 12, 2014 Author Share Posted June 12, 2014 If Panasonic is doing 4k for $800 Canon is still doing a fake 720p for the same. Their FULL HD not even come close to 720p resolution. 5Dmk3 not included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted June 12, 2014 Administrators Share Posted June 12, 2014 with todays news of the new panasonic doing 4K at 800 euros...well canon will start having headaches. as Marshall McLuhan said everytime there is a new technology- media introduced it causes " the tetrad effect" i wonder how 4K has affected and will affect everyhing. soon cameras without a 4K feature will look like cars without a right side mirror.(remember that?) ot left if you where in the UK. What does it enhance?What does it make obsolete?What does it retrieve that had been obsolesced earlier?What does it flip into when pushed to extremes?†A good point all round really. Canon will have to respond eventually for exactly that reason... Why not do it NOW and sell some extra cameras? Canon are disappointing their customers at the moment with the lack of change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damphousse Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 If Panasonic is doing 4k for $800 Canon is still doing a fake 720p for the same. Their FULL HD not even come close to 720p resolution. 5Dmk3 not included. Here's why. From the comment section of the DPreview article on the "$800 4k Panasonic..." How many cameras does Panasonic sell? How many cameras does Canon sell? Any questions? That mind you was not an isolated comment. I LOLed when I read this... Guys before going on rants or starting threads do market research. The main market for Canon's non Cinema line of cameras is photographers. Many photographers have minimal or no interest in video. Even for the photojournalist types the video you can grab with a stock 5D mk III is good enough and the camera system benefits far outweigh Panasonics camera system. This kind of stuff excites you and me but the much larger photo community couldn't care less. Another example... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest d5f8611fa423d0e628c016f9d5c93b47 Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 In a way this underlines my earlier question; why don't Panasonic make a video-only GH camera, with internal 10 bit 422 1080 prores? It could have built in ND filters, good low-light performance and superb DR with all the user friendliness of a standard GH camera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gethin Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Sandro: you don't have to spend a fortune to get wide angle on micro 4/3. I've got a d800, d5300 and gh2. I've grown to really love being able to use may tokina 11-16 with and without a speed booster on the gh2. Now if metabones can make an adaptor that can shrink a full frame image down to m4/3 size then I could use my 14-24 as a 14-24 f1.4 (I'll ignore the 4k crop), a 20-35 f2, and a 28-50 f2.8. That's why I'm wishing the a7s was apsc. Still that perfect camera is bound to come along shortly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.