Sony FX30 released... 26MP S35 / APS-C version of the FX3

[kye]

8 minutes ago, Django said:

..Uh what camera was this thread about again?

The FX30, which, as a crop sensor, is mathematically incapable of shallow DoF, cinematic images, or going viral on TikTok. I know those things are true - I read them on the internet.

[Django]

Lol I know your being cynical but I think (or at least hope) most people are aware that S35 is the cinema standard!

[TomTheDP]

50 minutes ago, Django said:

Lol I know your being cynical but I think (or at least hope) most people are aware that S35 is the cinema standard!

I almost feel full frame is the standard now for digital. The Alexa LF pretty much dominates, if not that the Sony Venice or RED monstro both of which are full frame. Of course we still see film being used quite a bit which is S35, larger than APSC tho. 

It'll be interesting to see how the Alexa 35 might change this. 

That said it's so easy to throw on a speed booster and get the FF look that the FX30 isn't suffering much from being S35 imo. My main appeal with FF is being able to use vintage still glass to its full potential. 

[ade towell]

1 hour ago, Django said:

Meh Vegas is overrated, plus the whole point was to rip it to pieces, annihilate, nuke it. The shallow DoF was the character in itself. Call it a played out gimmick, fine, but it was never done before at 100% in a feature. I do get how it could annoy people though, especially those that can't stand shallow DoF. 

..Uh what camera was this thread about again?

I like shallow dof but only when it's motivated ie adds to the story. I just realised it's the same director who did 300 - I hated that too and mainly cause it was basically actors plus some cgi background. I think the constant ultra dof in Army of the Dead made it feel similar - like it had all been filmed in front of green screen, there was nothing that would ground a character in their environment, they seemed completely seperated from each other, makes me feel kind of nauseous after a while. Maybe I'm just too old and sensitive. Anyway yes sorry back to the fx30...

[TomTheDP]

1 hour ago, ade towell said:

I like shallow dof but only when it's motivated ie adds to the story. I just realised it's the same director who did 300 - I hated that too and mainly cause it was basically actors plus some cgi background. I think the constant ultra dof in Army of the Dead made it feel similar - like it had all been filmed in front of green screen, there was nothing that would ground a character in their environment, they seemed completely seperated from each other, makes me feel kind of nauseous after a while. Maybe I'm just too old and sensitive. Anyway yes sorry back to the fx30...

They also did do a lot of green screen, one of the main actors was completely removed from the film and replaced later with someone else lol. 

In regards to the Sony it would be nice if it was priced even a bit cheaper $1500 territory. 

Why didn't they just go all out and give us open gate?

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, ade towell said:

cause it was basically actors plus some cgi background

You sure there were actors Ade?

I thought it had Gerard Butler in it…

[IronFilm]

8 hours ago, Django said:

Meh Vegas is overrated, plus the whole point was to rip it to pieces, annihilate, nuke it. The shallow DoF was the character in itself. Call it a played out gimmick, fine, but it was never done before at 100% in a feature. I do get how it could annoy people though, especially those that can't stand shallow DoF. 

..Uh what camera was this thread about again?

An APS-C / S35 camera

Which people's biggest objection to seems to be "BuT iT Is NOt fULl FraME", because people think you can't do shallow enough depth of field with APS-C / S35???? 

 

[IronFilm]

7 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

I almost feel full frame is the standard now for digital. The Alexa LF pretty much dominates

For me personally (as a Sound Mixer, who works with a wide range of DoPs), I more often work with the OG Alexa Mini, then the Mini LF. 

And even when there is a "full frame" camera on set, such as a VENICE or FX9, then it isn't uncommon it is being used in S35 mode (as was the case on last weekend's film) so they can use it with the S35 lenses of their choice. 

[TomTheDP]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

For me personally (as a Sound Mixer, who works with a wide range of DoPs), I more often work with the OG Alexa Mini, then the Mini LF. 

And even when there is a "full frame" camera on set, such as a VENICE or FX9, then it isn't uncommon it is being used in S35 mode (as was the case on last weekend's film) so they can use it with the S35 lenses of their choice. 

I think it depends on the tier you are working in. For like bigger theatrical releases it all seems to be the LF. I mean I definitely work a lot with S35 but I am not Hollywood. I am probably sounding pretty arrogant right now as Hollywood isn't the only place in the world making films, especially nowadays. 

[kye]

22 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

I think it depends on the tier you are working in. For like bigger theatrical releases it all seems to be the LF. I mean I definitely work a lot with S35 but I am not Hollywood. I am probably sounding pretty arrogant right now as Hollywood isn't the only place in the world making films, especially nowadays. 

This would have been my guess - that equipment and tech 'trickles down' to the lower budget productions over time.  

In keeping with that thought, OG Alexas and Amira's are still many many thousands of dollars second hand, so are still of considerable value and in demand.  I would assume then, that all cinema cameras ever made (except the ones that have died), are still in use somewhere, which would mean that there's a spectacular number of S35 cinema cameras out there in use.

I saw in a welding YT channel video the other day that one of the cameras was an Amira (when one camera got another in shot), and it was fully rigged out as you'd expect.  The channel was around 1M subs, and was definitely a commercial operation judging by how it was branded and the content.  I'd imagine that there are probably millions of channels with that number of subscribers, so easily enough of a user-base to absorb all yesterdays cinema cameras.

[kye]

9 hours ago, ade towell said:

I like shallow dof but only when it's motivated ie adds to the story. I just realised it's the same director who did 300 - I hated that too and mainly cause it was basically actors plus some cgi background. I think the constant ultra dof in Army of the Dead made it feel similar - like it had all been filmed in front of green screen, there was nothing that would ground a character in their environment, they seemed completely seperated from each other, makes me feel kind of nauseous after a while. Maybe I'm just too old and sensitive. Anyway yes sorry back to the fx30...

The example that stands out to me for shallow DoF was The Handmaid's Tale, which used shallow DoF to show the isolation of the handmaids from their surroundings and society in general.  Such subtle use is far more unsettling than the average horror film that is little more than the output from a random motion / sound generator with credits at each end.

[Django]

Looks like Sony launched local FX30 film projects in its main sub-divisions. This one just popped up from Sony Australia and is quite nice in a gritty graded way:

Looks like it was mostly shot with FF GM lenses but also the APS-C 18-110mm PZ cine zoom lens designed to pair with the FS7.

 

[IronFilm]

On 10/12/2022 at 1:51 PM, TomTheDP said:

I think it depends on the tier you are working in. For like bigger theatrical releases it all seems to be the LF. I mean I definitely work a lot with S35 but I am not Hollywood. I am probably sounding pretty arrogant right now as Hollywood isn't the only place in the world making films, especially nowadays. 

When you look at the cameras winning Oscars, it isn't exclusively dominated by ARRI LF cameras. 

S35 remains very popular at the highest levels. (funnily enough, each time I have worked with an ARRI Mini LF, it has been on a smaller sized production!)

[IronFilm]

 

On 10/12/2022 at 2:20 PM, kye said:

In keeping with that thought, OG Alexas and Amira's are still many many thousands of dollars second hand, so are still of considerable value and in demand.  I would assume then, that all cinema cameras ever made (except the ones that have died), are still in use somewhere, which would mean that there's a spectacular number of S35 cinema cameras out there in use.

ALEXA Classics and AMIRAs are plummeting in price again. 

You can go on eBay right now and see an ALEXA Classic for just three grand, and an AMIRA for fourteen grand. 

And they'll only get even cheaper as more and more orders of the ARRI 35 are shipped out. 

[TomTheDP]

4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

When you look at the cameras winning Oscars, it isn't exclusively dominated by ARRI LF cameras. 

S35 remains very popular at the highest levels. (funnily enough, each time I have worked with an ARRI Mini LF, it has been on a smaller sized production!)

Oscars aren't but movies that you see in theater or big TV/netflix type stuff are almost always the LF or Film.

You see Amiras at 14 grand but they have like 7000+ hours. 

You can find a classic for 2k hours for 4500 for the entire kit. XT's are staying a bit higher though probably because 3.2k raw at 120fps is still more commercially viable than HD even though the difference is next to nothing as downsampling retains almost all the detail. 

[kye]

15 hours ago, IronFilm said:

ALEXA Classics and AMIRAs are plummeting in price again. 

You can go on eBay right now and see an ALEXA Classic for just three grand, and an AMIRA for fourteen grand. 

And they'll only get even cheaper as more and more orders of the ARRI 35 are shipped out. 

Interesting.  

If it was purely a supply and demand thing where people just needed more cameras then you wouldn't expect any price changes at all (sensor size doesn't create new production houses!) so any drop must be that they're less desirable, or that people were waiting to update their equipment.  

I guess if rental houses maintain a fleet of X cameras and they all decide to get more FF models at once (a sensible strategy I'd imagine) then it would be a temporary glut in the market as they all offload their worst condition models.  That would suggest that prices will bounce back up again once the demand has absorbed the temporary supply blip.

I suspect it's a combination of both so prices will bounce back but probably not to the same level that they were at previously.  Good news for those looking for a bargain!

[IronFilm]

12 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

but movies that you see in theater or big TV/netflix type stuff are almost always the LF or Film.

Nah, it is extremely rare for Netflix productions to be shot on film. 

But yes, a lot of Netflix shoots have been using the LF because 4K is forced upon them as a requirement. 

For productions without the forced requirement, then LF cameras are much less common. 

12 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

You see Amiras at 14 grand but they have like 7000+ hours. 

Hours don't matter for digital cameras. 
(how it was used is what matters)

 

12 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

You can find a classic for 2k hours for 4500 for the entire kit.

I'd much much rather have an AMIRA than a Classic. (except for the cost 😕 ) 

12 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

XT's are staying a bit higher though 

Being able to use anamorphics is another reason an XT would go for more. 

Although there are Classics that do 4:3, but they tend to for a little more, and are never the cheapest. 

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, kye said:

If it was purely a supply and demand thing where people just needed more cameras then you wouldn't expect any price changes at all (sensor size doesn't create new production houses!) so any drop must be that they're less desirable, or that people were waiting to update their equipment.  

Of course every ARRI that isn't an ARRI 35 is not a lot less desirable once the new camera came out. 

For instance, nobody is using the ARRI Classic on big budget TVCs or AAA movies. And it has been like that for a long time now, since well before the ARRI 35 had started shipping. Everyone wants the Mini, or the SXT. (or more recently, sometimes, the LF)

The Classic has for years now been just for the low budget short films / low budget features, and some low budget tv series. 

1 hour ago, kye said:

I guess if rental houses maintain a fleet of X cameras and they all decide to get more FF models at once (a sensible strategy I'd imagine) then it would be a temporary glut in the market as they all offload their worst condition models.  That would suggest that prices will bounce back up again once the demand has absorbed the temporary supply blip.

 

[IronFilm]

gah, I hate how I can't edit messages after a very short amount of time has elapsed! Oh well. 

What I was going to say is:  

1 hour ago, kye said:

I guess if rental houses maintain a fleet of X cameras and they all decide to get more FF models at once (a sensible strategy I'd imagine) then it would be a temporary glut in the market as they all offload their worst condition models.  That would suggest that prices will bounce back up again once the demand has absorbed the temporary supply blip.

The entire ARRI 35 supply is not being dumped onto the market all at the same moment. Because: a) not everyone can afford to upgrade immediately at the same point in time. And also, for a much more important reason.... b) ARRI can't keep up with demand, they're pumping them out as fast as they can, but will take many months (maybe years!) for them to catch up with demand. 

And if the next generation ARRI sensor was going to be a success (which it appears it is), then of course all the previous generations of ARRI cameras were going to eventually suffer a steep decline in value, and will never recover again. 

Imagine if generations between flagship DSLRs were twice as long. Once the Nikon D3 was out, why would anybody ever buy or event rent the Nikon D1H/D1X? Once the Nikon D5 is out, why would the Nikon D3 still be wanted? 

The previous "generation" (well... double generations here, to make DSLR life cycles comparable to ARRI cinema cameras) will see a very steep decline in desirability. 

[kye]

55 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Of course every ARRI that isn't an ARRI 35 is not a lot less desirable once the new camera came out. 

For instance, nobody is using the ARRI Classic on big budget TVCs or AAA movies. And it has been like that for a long time now, since well before the ARRI 35 had started shipping. Everyone wants the Mini, or the SXT. (or more recently, sometimes, the LF)

The Classic has for years now been just for the low budget short films / low budget features, and some low budget tv series. 

 

45 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

gah, I hate how I can't edit messages after a very short amount of time has elapsed! Oh well. 

What I was going to say is:  

The entire ARRI 35 supply is not being dumped onto the market all at the same moment. Because: a) not everyone can afford to upgrade immediately at the same point in time. And also, for a much more important reason.... b) ARRI can't keep up with demand, they're pumping them out as fast as they can, but will take many months (maybe years!) for them to catch up with demand. 

And if the next generation ARRI sensor was going to be a success (which it appears it is), then of course all the previous generations of ARRI cameras were going to eventually suffer a steep decline in value, and will never recover again. 

Imagine if generations between flagship DSLRs were twice as long. Once the Nikon D3 was out, why would anybody ever buy or event rent the Nikon D1H/D1X? Once the Nikon D5 is out, why would the Nikon D3 still be wanted? 

The previous "generation" (well... double generations here, to make DSLR life cycles comparable to ARRI cinema cameras) will see a very steep decline in desirability. 

I guess the way I was looking at it was that there's the top end who can use whatever they want and will use the latest and greatest, then the mid-tier who hire, then the top-tier who own, then mid-tier who can afford to own an ARRI (no low-tier when it comes to owning an ARRI!), and the functioning cameras would essentially trickle-down through the tiers.  The fact that the lowest second-hand price was still high sort of indicates that there's still that much demand, even in the lowest tiers.

Considering that ARRI have been making Alexas for over a decade now means that there will be huge numbers our there in the wild, so if they make a years worth of sales of the 35, it's unlikely to be more than 10-20% of the Alexas already out there (plus assuming that there aren't many LFs compared to normal Alexas), meaning that 80%+ of ARRIs will be S35 and still in high demand.

To me, if I was in the market for a cinema camera and an Alexa Classic was in my budget and I wanted the name brand recognition and the colour science etc, the fact that there's a new FF Alexa wouldn't really affect me that much.  Yes, it would impact the top-end folks, but at some point in the 'tiers' the people will still value that an Alexa Classic is an ARRI, with all the pedigree and tack record the camera has, and none of that goes away just because there's a newer model.  I think this is a significant thing considering that I suspect the majority of ARRI owners (non-rental houses) probably don't care that much.  Unless you're somehow required to shoot 4K, which very few are, then an Alexa Classic is still a very desirable camera that meets probably all the requirements you'd have.