Sony FX30 released... 26MP S35 / APS-C version of the FX3

[Kisaha]

There are 2 threads for this camera. Can we decide which one to follow guys?

I am going back and forth, and I do not remember where I read what and what I have replied when and where!

[kye]

27 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

There are 2 threads for this camera. Can we decide which one to follow guys?

I am going back and forth, and I do not remember where I read what and what I have replied when and where!

Yeah, I didn't realise that there was already a thread on it.  Let's use the other one.

Handy hint - if you use the + button to multi-quote and then browse to another thread you can quote posts from the original thread in the other one, should that make sense.

[IronFilm]

22 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I’m still drooling over the new Hassie and whether it’s even remotely possible…and if it is, having zero video capability, would need a dedicated video sidekick.

The Hasselblad X2D 100C? 

But surely if you were going to irrationally splurge on a medium format camera for photography, then getting a  Fujifilm Medium Format camera makes much more sense??? (especially as you're already using Fujifilm for video)

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

The Hasselblad X2D 100C? 

But surely if you were going to irrationally splurge on a medium format camera for photography, then getting a  Fujifilm Medium Format camera makes much more sense??? (especially as you're already using Fujifilm for video)

It would, but sometimes irrationally takes over!

I cannot realistically do either so I’m not going to worry about it!

[Django]

15 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

The camera feels a little late and a little boring. It doesn't really feel like a cine camera. But Sony auto focus and 10 bit for $1800 is a compelling. I guess for $700 more you could get the full frame A74, but no external RAW or 4k 120 options. 

A7IV overheats in 4K60p though. Also has a whopping 26.8ms RS vs 15ms on FX30. 

FX3/FX30 are entry cine line cameras. Now with Cine EI & LUT import they do feel a little bit more worthy of FX range.

As an FS7 user, this would be the perfect B-cam for me.

That said, yeah strictly nothing exciting about it. Another utilitarian Sony camera.

[DFason]

I've now used Sony for years. I still dont understand why they can't add shutter angle. At least give us 1/48 instead of 1/50. My biggest gripe is the motion cadence. 

[TomTheDP]

2 hours ago, Django said:

A7IV overheats in 4K60p though. Also has a whopping 26.8ms RS vs 15ms on FX30. 

FX3/FX30 are entry cine line cameras. Now with Cine EI & LUT import they do feel a little bit more worthy of FX range.

As an FS7 user, this would be the perfect B-cam for me.

That said, yeah strictly nothing exciting about it. Another utilitarian Sony camera.

Like it or not auto focus is likely to beat out almost any other feature. Being able to easily match to Sony cine/pro cameras is a big plus though. 

[Thpriest]

15 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

It's not a revolutionary camera, but it's very competitively priced, which I think is the main goal. I think they understand that there's a segment of their customers that won't shoot on anything that isn't full frame so this probably isn't going to hurt those sales anyway, at least not to the extent that it'd hurt more than they gain from bringing more people into their ecosystem with a camera like this. 

I really don't want to go with Sony, but getting 2 or 3 of these might be the direction I end up going. Though I have a Lumix S5 and quite like it I've never been someone that particularly cares about full frame, so "downgrading" doesn't really matter to me. The lack of video features that even the entry level S5 has is frustrating, though and might be enough to make me wait to see what Panasonic does. 

I love my Panasonics but I’m on a shoot now where Sony AF would really help. I hope this camera makes then release a S5h/mk2 with stellar AF and no crop in 4K 50p. As far as I’m concerned they have until spring to convince me to stick with them. Otherwise I’d probably sell the lot and get the FX30 x2 and a A7C for photos.

[ntblowz]

3 hours ago, DFason said:

I've now used Sony for years. I still dont understand why they can't add shutter angle. At least give us 1/48 instead of 1/50. My biggest gripe is the motion cadence. 

Good thing we shoot 25p here so 1/50 is perfect lol

[Django]

On 9/30/2022 at 7:30 PM, TomTheDP said:

Like it or not auto focus is likely to beat out almost any other feature. Being able to easily match to Sony cine/pro cameras is a big plus though. 

No DCI 4K though means matching with my preferred aspect ratio would be compromised. Such a weak cripple hammer decision. Sony is the only company today that won't allow DCI 4K on their mirrorless bodies. That alone is sort of a deal breaker to me.

[independent]

To be fair, I don’t think the main demographic of this camera would require DCI standards. Nobody aiming for cinema release would be using this camera. Much better options. 

This is for influencers. 

 

[A_Urquhart]

On 10/1/2022 at 2:54 AM, DFason said:

I've now used Sony for years. I still dont understand why they can't add shutter angle. At least give us 1/48 instead of 1/50. My biggest gripe is the motion cadence. 

And they have the nerve to call it a 'Cinema Camera'. I mean, one of the fundamentals of cine shooting is shutter angle but then.....we all know these mirrorless cameras that get called 'Cinema Cameras' aren't really proper cinema cameras. Just a phrase penned my marketing suits really. This is a video camera!

Anyway, rant over......I think the FX30 looks great. With the EF to E Mount speed booster I have left over from my FS7 days, I can easily make this camera full frame if needed so at the price point, I'm not really seeing anything not to like about it. 

[Django]

On 10/4/2022 at 6:59 PM, independent said:

To be fair, I don’t think the main demographic of this camera would require DCI standards. Nobody aiming for cinema release would be using this camera. Much better options. 

This is for influencers. 

 

Well its a dumb move imo because the FX3/FX30 would be perfect B/C cams to FX6/FX9 or even Venice. Think drones, gimbals, action shots. Also the FX30 web page talks about cinema and filmmaking all throughout:

Sony's acclaimed Cinema Line cameras sets the standard for filmmaking, with beautiful cinematic imagery, high performance and highly efficient workflow. Film industry experience allied with state-of-the-art imaging technology. The outstanding Cinema Line series of cinema cameras is built on decades of experience in the film industry and supported by Sony's sophisticated new technologies on the cutting edge of digital imaging.

And even if you're not aiming for cinema release 4K DCI is great simply for getting closer to full sensor readout instead of the UHD crop. Again every mirrorless brand offers this in their flagships / video oriented models.. except Sony. It's a deliberate cripple to continue and segment the now "affordable" FX line from the more expensive "real" cine line. Same for shutter angle, it's probably 2 lines of code to copy/paste but no dice. Its rather infuriating. I'll be at the Sony booth at a trade show next weekend and rest assured I will grill them about this.

20 hours ago, A_Urquhart said:

And they have the nerve to call it a 'Cinema Camera'. I mean, one of the fundamentals of cine shooting is shutter angle but then.....we all know these mirrorless cameras that get called 'Cinema Cameras' aren't really proper cinema cameras. Just a phrase penned my marketing suits really. This is a video camera!

Anyway, rant over......I think the FX30 looks great. With the EF to E Mount speed booster I have left over from my FS7 days, I can easily make this camera full frame if needed so at the price point, I'm not really seeing anything not to like about it. 

Not true: Canon R5C has shutter angle, Panasonic GH series also. FX3/FX30 are half-ass attempts and not 100% worthy of the FX line imo. R5C remains the benchmark with full cinema line OS.

FX30 is really hyped because of its price point and sleak FX3 body but in reality you're not getting that much with NDs, DCI & shutter angle missing, no EVF, no mechanical shutter and a sensor that pales in comparison to what the XH2S offers you (14-bit readout, 6.2K Open gate, DCI4K, 9.7ms RS, 13.4 stops of DR, ProRes). 

[independent]

Let’s not get carried away, if production gets to that level, the fx3 will be used, not the fx30. 

It doesn’t matter what the marketing lit says, no real production would ever use the fx30 over the fx3 because the cost difference is nothing compared to the compromises.

Sony is diluting their cinema line to sell more cameras to influencers and casuals. So what?  Not sure what you’re getting worked up over. Canon has been doing the opposite for decades. Just get the camera that’s right for you. 
 

[Django]

55 minutes ago, independent said:

Let’s not get carried away, if production gets to that level, the fx3 will be used, not the fx30. 

It doesn’t matter what the marketing lit says, no real production would ever use the fx30 over the fx3 because the cost difference is nothing compared to the compromises.

Sony is diluting their cinema line to sell more cameras to influencers and casuals. So what?  Not sure what you’re getting worked up over. Canon has been doing the opposite for decades. Just get the camera that’s right for you. 
 

The FX3 is overpriced imo. It has the exact same downfalls as the FX30: Still no DCI 4K or shutter angle or WFM/False color. No S35 crop mode. No EVF. No internal RAW. No oversampled 4K. Actually the FX30 has oversampled 4K so in one important IQ aspect it is actually superior to the FX3! And it can do both S35 & FF with speed booster.

I'm not really worked up, I just find the Sony cripple hammer very annoying and disappointing. Canon caught a whole lot of flack when it was up to those shenanigans but Sony gets a pass from you? double standards. 

See I do want a b-cam to my FS7 just like I'm sure FX6 & FX9 owners do too, but Sony doesn't give it to you. Not in FX3, not in FX30. At least Canon have C70 & R5C will full cine line features including internal RAW.. more expensive sure but no severe compromises like with Sony. 

All that said I will probably go with Fuji lol. 

 

[A_Urquhart]

4 hours ago, Django said:

 

Not true: Canon R5C has shutter angle, Panasonic GH series also. FX3/FX30 are half-ass attempts and not 100% worthy of the FX line imo. R5C remains the benchmark with full cinema line OS.

I'm agreeing with you. The FX30, if it's going to don the 'Cinema' tag, should have shutter angle and DCI. Two fundamentals of cinema shooting. 

I was merely saying that this proves the term 'cinema' camera is nothing more than marketing nonsense according to the manufacturers who tell us these are 'cinema cameras' but then omit very core fundamentals of Cinema shooting. 

Sony should be applauded for this camera but it should be a slow clap until they add shutter angle and DCI. 

[A_Urquhart]

7 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

I'm agreeing with you. The FX30, if it's going to don the 'Cinema' tag, should have shutter angle and DCI. Two fundamentals of cinema shooting. 

I was merely saying that this proves the term 'cinema' camera is nothing more than marketing nonsense according to the manufacturers who tell us these are 'cinema cameras' but then omit very core fundamentals of Cinema shooting. 

Sony should be applauded for this camera but it should be a slow clap until they add shutter angle and DCI. 

Continued........

For me, 70% of my work requires Sony cameras which are generally FX9 and FX6 so this will be a B-Cam to those and will probably live on a gimbal. I prefer the APS-C sensor of the FX30 to the Full frame one on the FX3. I can't put Super35 lenses on the FX3 as doing so forces you to shoot HD when in crop mode. 

I can put both Super35 AND Full Frame lenses on the FX30 and with an EF to E mount speed booster I get proper Full frame. To me, It's a much more versatile camera regardless of price. 

I also have the P6K Pro and was disappointed when it was announced to have an EF mount negating the use of many adaptors and speed boosters. The 6K Pro gets used as a B Camera to Arri Alexa and Amira so I will keep it but I feel that BMD is going to have to step up it's game now that Sony has the FX30. Sure, It doesn't natively shoot RAW but most productions still don't want BRAW so I'm in ProRes most of the time. 

Will be interesting to do a side by side....

[Django]

1 hour ago, A_Urquhart said:

Continued........

For me, 70% of my work requires Sony cameras which are generally FX9 and FX6 so this will be a B-Cam to those and will probably live on a gimbal. I prefer the APS-C sensor of the FX30 to the Full frame one on the FX3. I can't put Super35 lenses on the FX3 as doing so forces you to shoot HD when in crop mode. 

I can put both Super35 AND Full Frame lenses on the FX30 and with an EF to E mount speed booster I get proper Full frame. To me, It's a much more versatile camera regardless of price. 

I also have the P6K Pro and was disappointed when it was announced to have an EF mount negating the use of many adaptors and speed boosters. The 6K Pro gets used as a B Camera to Arri Alexa and Amira so I will keep it but I feel that BMD is going to have to step up it's game now that Sony has the FX30. Sure, It doesn't natively shoot RAW but most productions still don't want BRAW so I'm in ProRes most of the time. 

Will be interesting to do a side by side....

Yes this is what I was saying above. The FX30 is actually better than the FX3 in couple areas, namely the oversampled 4K and the sensor size that can reveal to be more useful than the FX3 that has no S35 crop mode in 4K. But the biggest competitor to the FX30 is imo A7IV. Only couple hundred dollars more extra and you get a FF camera that has a S35 crop mode with less rolling shutter and much better low light sensitivity. Plus an EVF and full photo capability. Same 10-bit codec. Same log profiles. And that is what pisses me off, Sony could have given FX3/FX30 DCI, shutter angle and WFM/false color and it would have been a clear winner for video. But they're afraid of losing FX6 sales which is ridiculous.

If you're exclusive to video though I can understand the FX30 form factor and maybe LUT support and cine EI being a better option and better match if you're using it as an FX6/FX9 B cam. As an FS7 owner, the FX30 seems like the logical choice but it just feels so underwhelming to me. I hope to be able to test one this coming weekend, maybe I'll come around once I see what I can get out of it. So far the demo footage on YT is horrible but that doesn't mean that much doesn't it.

As for the 6K Pro. Different category. It has NDs, it shoots RAW, that big LCD. It's a lot closer to a proper cine cam. That said I agree the EF mount limits it so much, it was the deal breaker for me. Well that and no AF or IBIS. Plus a so so sensor in regards to rolling shutter and low-light. At a time where the competition is fierce and cameras are now shooting RAW, 10-bit, ProRes.  10-bit 4:2:2 on a nice chunky codec is good enough for me though. My editors hate RAW too so yeah not viable on commercial work either. It's a nice thing to have though for those special shoots.

I'll try and not be too hard on FX30 until I try it. Specs are a little disappointing to me but who knows I might be pleasantly surprised by it.

[kye]

7 hours ago, independent said:

It doesn’t matter what the marketing lit says, no real production would ever use the fx30 over the fx3 because the cost difference is nothing compared to the compromises.

For me, if we're talking 'cinema' here, the biggest difference is in lenses and their coverage.  If you're buying lenses then the S35 lenses from Sony are smaller/cheaper/lighter, and if you're renting then the zillions of S35 cine lenses out there must be cheaper to rent than those with FF coverage.

I understand that the comments from others here also discuss the crop modes of FF cameras, which is also a logical comparison.

3 hours ago, A_Urquhart said:

I was merely saying that this proves the term 'cinema' camera is nothing more than marketing nonsense according to the manufacturers who tell us these are 'cinema cameras' but then omit very core fundamentals of Cinema shooting. 

Words in the English language are constantly evolving, being co-opted for good and bad, etc, but I'm wondering if a new definition is evolving?

If you take an enormous step back, then you see that there's roughly the following categories for cameras:

• Smartphones
• Point-and-shoot (integrated lenses)
• Consumer video cameras (hand-held, integrated lens)
• Professional video cameras (ENG style)
• Hybrid mirrorless (often photo-first designs, typically quite ergonomic, no support for rigs)
• Cinema cameras (video-first or video-only, integrated fans, mounting points, etc)

Looking at things from this perspective, which is really the perspective of the 'content creator' who shoots with a variety of tools, the FX30 is more akin to a cinema camera.  If you're someone that exists solely in the world of the professional sets, the fact that Sony call something a "cinema" camera won't fool you at all and is a pretty inconsequential label to add to it.

You could make the argument that cameras like the R5 and GH6 and FX30 might be best put into an additional category rather than the ones I listed above, but if you had to choose then lots of cameras without these 'essential' features fit much better in the last category than any other.

[A_Urquhart]

2 hours ago, Django said:

 But the biggest competitor to the FX30 is imo A7IV. Only couple hundred dollars more extra and you get a FF camera that has a S35 crop mode with less rolling shutter and much better low light sensitivity. Plus an EVF and full photo capability. Same 10-bit codec. Same log profiles. 

I

I'm not up to speed on Sony's A7IV specs but can it receive Timecode and output a custom LUT over HDMI? These are two pretty important features for me that I use daily on set. 

 

1 hour ago, kye said:

For me, if we're talking 'cinema' here, the biggest difference is in lenses and their coverage.  If you're buying lenses then the S35 lenses from Sony are smaller/cheaper/lighter, and if you're renting then the zillions of S35 cine lenses out there must be cheaper to rent than those with FF coverage.

I understand that the comments from others here also discuss the crop modes of FF cameras, which is also a logical comparison.

Words in the English language are constantly evolving, being co-opted for good and bad, etc, but I'm wondering if a new definition is evolving?

If you take an enormous step back, then you see that there's roughly the following categories for cameras:

• Smartphones
• Point-and-shoot (integrated lenses)
• Consumer video cameras (hand-held, integrated lens)
• Professional video cameras (ENG style)
• Hybrid mirrorless (often photo-first designs, typically quite ergonomic, no support for rigs)
• Cinema cameras (video-first or video-only, integrated fans, mounting points, etc)

Looking at things from this perspective, which is really the perspective of the 'content creator' who shoots with a variety of tools, the FX30 is more akin to a cinema camera.  If you're someone that exists solely in the world of the professional sets, the fact that Sony call something a "cinema" camera won't fool you at all and is a pretty inconsequential label to add to it.

You could make the argument that cameras like the R5 and GH6 and FX30 might be best put into an additional category rather than the ones I listed above, but if you had to choose then lots of cameras without these 'essential' features fit much better in the last category than any other.

Fair points! 

I still stand by my argument that anything that is labelled as a cinema camera MUST have shutter angle. There is absolutely no reason for Sony to omit this. 

How about Sony put Shutter angle only on the next A1 camera in both photo and video modes. Then listen to the photographers kick up a stink. They just wouldn't do it!