Canon 5d mkIII or BlackMagic Pocket for shooting RAW video

[elkanah77]

Hi,

With money no issue, what would you recommend between a Canon 5d mkiii with ML vs. a BlackMagic Pocket option? I'm only considering these two options because I want to shoot RAW. Pictures of no interest.

 

It's for my own personal use, not clients. Mainly shoot "moods" or the occasional music video to showcase my own songs.

 

I already have the GH4 and I'm not very keen on the Sony's so please keep that out of it. No offence. :-)

 

I have both m43 lenses as well as some very good Nikon FF lenses.

 

Ergonomics might be an issue.

 

I have read all kinds of threads so I'm prepared but thought someone might chip in some pointers just before I pull the trigger.

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

[varicam]

If money is no issue, why not get both? You can always sell them later if you need something new.

[elkanah77]

If money is no issue, why not get both? You can always sell them later if you need something new.

I can of course get both although I'm not filthy rich if thats what it seems. :-)

 

I'd still like to get just one and stick with it.

[maxotics]

If photos are no interest and you don't need super shallow, wide-angle DOF than the BMPCC is the way to go.  It is made for RAW.  It does basic compression so the files are half the size as the 5D3.  If you're doing "moods" then the camera is light/small, can go with you everywhere.   It is super-easy to use.  The 5D3 with a lens is a heavy beast and is not made for RAW video out of the box.  The BMPCC will give you a rich, subtle tonality look you can't get from the GH4, or any other non-RAW camera.  It will get you to usable RAW the fastest,   Finally, it will be one quarter the price.  In fact, it was made just for the purpose you want to use it for.  

[hmcindie]

The 5D3 with a lens is a heavy beast and is not made for RAW video out of the box.  

 

Heavy beast. Man, you will be in for a surprise when you try actual pro- videocams ;)

[andrgl]

max hit basically everything, but:

1) Even with the BMPCC Speedbooster and a "dumb" mount, you're spending far less than a 5D3, while getting the benefit of being able to use both sets of glass.

2) I have never had stability issues with my BMPCC. Magic Lantern on my EOSM and a 5D3 I use have dropped frames, crashed and corrupted memory cards. Don't get me wrong, I love ML, but the BMPCC has been more reliable.

3) BMPCC low light sucks compared to the 5D3.

[Daniel Acuña]

Before buying a bmpcc, I hope that you are aware of all the problems you can encounter with it : 

 

• Very bad Battery Life
• No in-camera formatting
• Can’t delete files on camera 
• No “remaining time†warning
• Limited WB settings
• Poor Screen viewing
• Small size sensor (Super 16mm)

Many of this problems can be dealt with but in the end the size factor won't really be an advantage because you will have to build a rig around the camera. But this camera delivers a beautiful image that's a fact! Wether you love it or hate it! You are the judge. :)

[odie]

Heavy beast. Man, you will be in for a surprise when you try actual pro- videocams ;)

right.. try a red mx handheld or a panavision gold..

[jgharding]

I thought Alexa plus was heavy at 7kg body only...

 

Just looked up the Panavision... 27kg!!! Jesus...

[andrgl]

the size factor won't really be an advantage because you will have to build a rig around the camera

Both the BMPCC and 5D3 can be used with just a lens.

Additionally:

• BMPCC weight is 2/5 that of 5D3: 356.4g vs 859g.
• BMPCC volume is 1/4 that of 5D3: 19.7in vs 83in.

So, when you have to rig up a camera, the BMPCC will lighter and smaller. Which is an ADVANTAGE.
 
Why? Because a rig that's smaller and weighs less is easier to put on:

• gimbal
• stabilizer
• tripod
• slider
• car mount
• etc, etc

It also translates into your rig weighing 1.1lb less. Or another way to look at it is being able to attach an additional 1.1lb to your rig.

[Viet Bach Bui]

I'm having the same dilemma but right now I'm leaning towards the 5D3 because:

- While the ML software may not be the most stable there is the 5D3 is a much more reliable piece of hardware than the BMPCC is. I would take the occasional dropped frames over high probability of bad pixels, easily broken HDMI ports and other technical issues.

- I do quite a bit of still photography so the cost difference isn't all that much between having the 5D3 for both video and stills vs a BMPCC and a still camera.

- The 5D3 is weather proof. I would be reluctant to take the BMPCC out on the beaches for long.

- It seems I will have an easier time managing the colors from the 5D3 RAWs. I believe I'm not good enough to grade the BPMCC footages.

- And finally, those really wide shots with relatively thin DOF I have seen from the 5D3 got me hooked!

[maxotics]

Heavy beast. Man, you will be in for a surprise when you try actual pro- videocams ;)

 

I can't even handle the GM1! :)  I dropped it the other day (which I blame my daughter for, she was talking to me) and now it has a hair-line crack near the flash.  The last time I did this for a living I used one of these

 

'>

 

One day I didn't tighten the tripod head enough and the camera tilted up into the sun.  All you old foggies know what that meant (hole through the tube membrane).

[Daniel Acuña]

Both the BMPCC and 5D3 can be used with just a lens.

Additionally:

• BMPCC weight is 2/5 that of 5D3: 356.4g vs 859g.
• BMPCC volume is 1/4 that of 5D3: 19.7in vs 83in.

So, when you have to rig up a camera, the BMPCC will lighter and smaller. Which is an ADVANTAGE.
 
Why? Because a rig that's smaller and weighs less is easier to put on:

• gimbal
• stabilizer
• tripod
• slider
• car mount
• etc, etc

It also translates into your rig weighing 1.1lb less. Or another way to look at it is being able to attach an additional 1.1lb to your rig.

 

 

Yes of course you are right but, still you don't really use this camera without having some sort of rig to make it useable in most situations, I am just saying that people shouldn't really consider buying this camera (bmpcc) because they think they can just use it with a lens on run and go situations or anny other situation, because it has to many problems for that kind of job (low battery life, etc...). When you are buying this camera you are buying a sensor (a good one) and then you built everything else from it, that's how is see this camera, I don't see it as a pocket camera. And this is pretty much the same case with the other two blackmagic cameras (BMCC and BMCC 4k).

 

So I think this is something to know and consider before buying this camera.

 

Cheers.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

I never answered these kind of questions this bluntly but, get the 5D. Just get it and start shooting, easily. 

From my experience with it, blackmagic pocket is a flawed camera that's almost unusable compared to the market it's competing in. As others mentioned everywhere:

1-You can't delete clips in-camera

2-You can't erase a memory card. You have to go back home or find a mac store to do it when you're out.
3-Camera stops recording without warning when the card is full, god knows when,
4-You need to carry a little bag full of batteries to shoot a normal day

I can't work with a camera that has these 4 flaws, simple as that. And I call these 4 items "flaws" not simply lack of features. If they fix these, I will like and use them again.

There's another list for the features lacking, which are annoying but not system-breakers:

1-Horrible screen/reflective/scratchable/hard to see 
2-No waveforms or historgrams
3-No audio. Period. This camera can not record audio.
4-No live WB adjustment.
5-No variable framerate above 30p
6-Very limited ISO range, poor sensitivity 
7-Too big a format for the SD media (ProRes HQ only, no LT) or Cinema DNG (2:1) 

8-No external controls for adjusting settings, only through menus
9-Camera adjusts Iris for you everytime you turn it on

I can go on... It's very hard to find any other cameras on the market that you can write a list of 15 flawed/missing items and still be able to continue writing. The benefit you get from dealing with all this pain, is a good, gradable image, and low price. Not worth it for me, but that's just me. 

The 5D has that benefit, great, gradable raw image, but without about 11-12 of these items on the list above. Go for it if you have the money. It's a joy to shoot with compared to this BM prototype.

I would never get the pocket camera unless, I really really really need raw, and cannot pay over 1K... 

[HurtinMinorKey]

Most of the +/- s have been listed here.  Personally, i think it's silly to get a 5D, just to shoot RAW video.  I also think the BMPCC is a better system and has a better image.  

 

But if i needed a stills camera too, it makes the decision a lot harder. 

[Wulf]

Rent them first!

after all, only _you_ could decide which fits your need. After a weekend shooting both you will be much wiser. As you said, money is not an issue.

[Andrew Reid]

I'd go for the 5D Mark II with VAF-5D2b or Mark III (if you need extra low light and better performance in crop mode).

 

Better featured than the Pocket and better image quality.

[elkanah77]

Thanks guys. Appreciated.

 

After some thought I've decided on the 5d. It seems the BMPCC has some issues that would drive me nuts in the long run. Not to be able to erase card in camera and battery capacity is one of them.

 

Any ideas for a very good all-round IS lens?

[jcs]

Any ideas for a very good all-round IS lens?

 

Canon or Sigma 24-105 F4.

[Axel]

Yes of course you are right but, still you don't really use this camera without having some sort of rig to make it useable in most situations, I am just saying that people shouldn't really consider buying this camera (bmpcc) because they think they can just use it with a lens on run and go situations or anny other situation, because it has to many problems for that kind of job (low battery life, etc...). When you are buying this camera you are buying a sensor (a good one) and then you built everything else from it, that's how is see this camera, I don't see it as a pocket camera. And this is pretty much the same case with the other two blackmagic cameras (BMCC and BMCC 4k).

 

So I think this is something to know and consider before buying this camera.

 

You know, Andrew is right when he states that image quality (in ML raw!) is potentially much higher than that of BMPCC.

 

In the meantime, I accompany my video buddies' efforts to build an ergonomic rig for his M3, specially for raw. I thought (and often wrote here) that it was naive fallacy to believe that the BMPCC was a pocket camera. I did try a lot of add-ons to overcome it's limitations. Now I have the most basic 'rig', consisting of a viewfinder and a breast pad, and I am no longer aware of a serious limitation, serious meaning inhibiting to get shots right. The so-called 'issues' with the BMPCC cease to be important when you have a closer look:

 

1-You can't delete clips in-camera

Oh, I see. Have been doing this all the time with my former cameras. Always checked in between. Very good habit.

 

2-You can't erase a memory card. You have to go back home or find a mac store to do it when you're out.

Let me think. I am on a journey, I have with me a camera that can format the card. Now as we all know, you sometimes think, hey, what I recorded yesterday at the Taj Mahal was actually not worth keeping. Shall I copy it to my laptop? No, delete the whole crap!

EDIT, BTW: The clips on the card can be deleted (or copied) individually after viewing them on a laptop (admittedly, for raw it has to be a capable laptop). This often is a problem for common card structures (the BMPCC puts all videos in the root directory), especially with long ("spanned") clips or with certain NLEs (i.e. FCP X).

 

3-Camera stops recording without warning when the card is full, god knows when,

Not entirely true. This depends on the card obviously. I repeatedly got a warning "CARD FULL" in the display (SanDisk Extreme Pro 64 GB), and the Pocket allowed me to finish the recording. Afterwards I found there was still over 1 GB space left. I admit this could be better, like "remaining minutes" or so. Since this is, according to the BM team, 'no problem', I'm looking forward to a firmware update within few years.

 

4-You need to carry a little bag full of batteries to shoot a normal day

Yeah, indeed a little bag, with tiny and really cheap batteries. This again depends on the batteries you bought. Those with 1080mAh last way more than one 35 min (ProRes) or 18 min (raw) card, with usual interruptions (without shorter). You change the card, you change the battery, and everything remains small and lightweight. Now I foresee the argument, the cards are shat full too quickly. Well yes, who told you to leave AVCHD behind?

 

EDIT A propos 'normal day': The BMPCC ist not the right camera if you wish to shoot very long takes without time in between to let the camera cool. Wedding and concert videographers beware! At room temperature and left continously "on" (somebody checked with 8 1,2V AA batteries and an HDMI monitor), after a little under an hour the body's temperature exceeds 108°F. Then the dead pixels (every BMPCC sensor has them) appear in the video (If you put the camera off or not then really doesn't matter, firstly because the camera uses battery power to transport the heat from the sensor to the metal body and secondly because the hotter it get's, the faster the battery is empty, and the camera will go off anyway). This is a good argument against an external battery solution. It also makes 'long play' solutions like external field recorders questionable. Can't tell if that's a problem for the 5D with MLraw, must be considered. If, which I didn't follow, the 5D can record noteworthy lengtths of raw video in the first place.

 

2-No waveforms or historgrams

Are we talking about raw here? This is indeed a minor issue for ProRes, but not for raw. Afaik there is also an ETTR assistance in ML, and that's the way to expose for raw (unless you denoise in post, which will give your final image a video look, no matter with which tool you denoise). Works flawlessly with 100% zebra with the Pocket.

 

3-No audio. Period. This camera can not record audio.

I see. Whereas the 5D can. Internally. I tried several ways to record directly to the video file, and it's all a matter of the right pre-amp settings. Whenever you record dialog, it's better anyway to record sound externally. Period.

 

4-No live WB adjustment.

Are we talking about raw here?

 

5-No variable framerate above 30p

True.

 

6-Very limited ISO range, poor sensitivity

Compared to what? Again: Are we talking about raw here? And are we talking about a cinema camera or an ENG camcorder suitable for existing light? You don't ETTR enough with the 5D M3, and you will have ugly noise where you never expected it ...

 

7-Too big a format for the SD media (ProRes HQ only, no LT) or Cinema DNG (2:1)

The latter it has, and the files are much smaller than MLraw. On the standard PR and LT I agree, but this is a skinflint's complaint. Arri currently charges a few thousand bucks for it's Amira to step up from the standard PR to HQ. BM seem to have abandoned the support, otherwise I think the implemenation would have been 'no problem'.

Again, you want to compare this to 5D with MLraw. I doubt very much, if austerity was a virtue for raw at all, that the comparison would be favorable for the Canon.

 

8-No external controls for adjusting settings, only through menus

Which settings are we talking about? The (practically) non-existent WB? The useless audio levels? The switch between ProRes and raw? It does have aperture control, focus assistant. It has no fancy picture styles, for a reason. Add metadata to a clip? Aww, come on!

 

9-Camera adjusts Iris for you everytime you turn it on

For a reason. This only happens with MFT system lenses, and the automatic iris E'sTTR in raw. You could never be more exact manually. Why? Because you only have the friggin' zebra. Are we talking about raw here?

 

I will add THE killer argument against the BMPCC, something that has not yet been solved looong ago by the users: Moire. Particularly in raw, and particularly in comparison to the M3 with MLraw.

 

From a Wolfscrow newsletter I found this video, demonstrating a rather sophisticated rig:

 

I won't buy all that stuff (sold my cage recently), but I am willing to bet that there never will be a more compact and more ergonomic rig for the 5DM3.