BMCC or Sony FS700

[TIAN]

Hello,

 

In a month or I will be making a video-clip with 2 friends.  I currently own a canon 6d which I’ve been doing projects with. Even though it’s a great camera I want to try something new to get a better image and better features.

 

Because it’s a passion project we have almost zero budget. BUT we do want to rent a camera. I see it as an investment so I can learn to work with ‘real’ videocamera’s, instead of DSLRs.

I’ve been pondering about 2 camera’s the Blackmagic Cinema Camera 2.5k and the Sony FS700, The BM because it has a great image (DR), cheaper to rent, no adapter needed for my lenses and great gradeable image (from what I can tell). The Sony mainly because of slow-mo. Even though slow motion is widely overused imo in videoclips, there are more than a few shots in this project that would benefit from slow-mo and give it a higher production value.

 

I want to use Davinci Resolve for color correction. I’m completely new to it and see this project as a studycase to learn the, from what I hear, complex program. There’s no deadline to project, so I can play with it for weeks.

There are a couple of question I still have and could use some recommendations/thoughts.

How gradeable are the internal images from the FS700? As far I can see it has the same limitations as DSLR has when recording internal, 8-bit 4:2:0. However, because it is a different codec, does that make any difference?  If I would to should on the BMCC, I still would be shooting on ProRes and not RAW. From what I hear it is mostly handy for greenscreen, tracking and difficult DR situations, which our project doesn’t include. We could also rent an external recorder for the Sony, but the Sony is already almost twice as expensive to rent. I don’t think we have that budget.

Then there’s the other bigger concern which I only stumbled upon today: codecs, programs and PC. Since I run a windows computer, I can’t export in ProRes from Premiere Pro for Resolve. I however really want to start to learn Resolve on a serious project. The Sony on the other hand records internally in AVCHD which, from what I understand, is not supported by Resolve….. *sigh*. I’ve been googling for a couple of hours now, but I see no clear way to edit BM ProRes  footage (not RAW) in PP and colorgrade in Resolve with no quality loss or to edit Sony’s codec natively in PP and export it without quality loss for Resolve.

 

I don’t know how for I’m gonna push the image in post, since I have no experience in this department. But still, the two questions remains. How will the internal FS700 manage in post and is there an easy way to work with either BM or Sony footage on a PC with Premiere Pro and Resolve?

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

About the second question: you can use Avid DNxHD as an alternative for ProRes HQ for windows.
Download the Codec pack from Avid website, and it will appear in your applications' export options (under quicktime mov.)

You can transcode both ProRes or AVCHD to DNxHD and work with that in "any" application, with no loss in quality. It's a high quality, edit-friendly codec, like prores, but works on both mac and pc platforms.

-about the first question: it really depends on how much importance you lay on usability/ergonomics vs. Image quality.
The BM will give you a superior image, but is a much harder camera to use with many downsides (discussed heavelly)
The FS700 will give you a pretty good image (just not BM quality) but without the usability issues.

I personally don't believe in absolute image quality because, to a point, clients will not care, so I lay more importance on usability and making my life easier. I would shoot on an FS700 rather than a BM anyday. But that's just me. I have no experience with the FS700 but only hear the best about it from my partners. It seems like a workhorse of a camera.

[jgharding]

You can work with ProRes in Windows Premiere just fine. You can export ProRes from PC Premiere directly, if you install the codec pack from Maraizon. It is worth the 50 dollars.

 

http://miraizon.com/products/codecssysreq.html

 

From these camera options I's use FS700 with external recorder, both rented.  The FS700 is a bit piggy ergonomically, but it's still a proper camcorder. BMCC is not, though the final image can be lovely.

 

Speedgrade is part of CC, is a serious grading package, and will handle AVCHD, ProRes, DNxHD and so with no re-encoding. It all stays native and you can swicth back forth between edit and grade with no re-rendering, no round trips. so I'd recommend that workflow.

 

It's called "Direct Link to Speedgrade"

[pablogrollan]

I agree with both Ebrahim and jgharding on using the FS700. Considering you have no budget, the BM has a bunch of caveats associated (storage needs, battery, extra work in post, reliability). I personally would prefer to know I'm not going to run into unforeseen events and end up needing to rent the camera again for an additional day of shooting. An yes, the FS700 is more of a "proper" video camera while the BM, as a cinema camera, requires the usual rigging of a DSLR or more.

[jcs]

If you need slomo (up to 240fps), the FS700 is good for what it costs. You might look into renting an Odyssey 7Q to get you ProRes or RAW with the FS700 (the 7Q will also help with critical focus). Also consider a RED Scarlet. Many rental houses are upgrading to the Dragon sensor and non-upgraded Scarlet's might be a lot cheaper now (up to 120fps slomo).

 

I have found it's best to set up the FS700's color profile(s) to do close to what you want for the final output. It's reasonably gradable, however when shooting people/skintones, it's best to get the color profiles as accurate as possible and to expose and set WB precisely so that skintones look their best.

[TIAN]

Thank you all for your replies! Truly helpful!

 

@Ebrahim, I will check out the AVID codec, I guess I'll be transcoding all footage files to DNxHD and Premiere export in DNxHD for Resolve? Or just edit nati vely AVCHD in Premiere, export in DNxHD for Resolve and grade it there?

 

@jgharding, I cannot afford Adobe CC at the moment, tho the Premiere/Speedgrade workflow seems really easy. But if I had CC I would stil want to try out Resolve. I really want to learn that program to enhance my skillset. This project seems to be perfect to learn it cos of the lack of a hard deadline.

 

Concerning the 7Q/FS700 combo, I've looked into it and it would be the perfect setup from what I can tell. Roughly the same image quality as the BM, correct me if I'm wrong, a good codec AND slomo. But sadly, out of our price range. It will cost over 3 times more than going the BM route.

About rigging the BM, I can use most of my DSLR equipment for the BMCC. Because we have a static environment for our shoot, we don’t need additional powering, we’ll just power it via the AC adapter into the wall. I just need a SSD and SSD reader, but are surely needed in the future.

My problem is like I said, I don’t how much DR flexibility is needed in the shoot and how much room I need in post. Maybe I can give an example:

[jcs]

If you have no budget for lighting and only need basic slomo, consider the Sony A7S. Fullframe and the top low-light camera available.

Even the GH4 with an iPhone LED and a little Neat Video works well in low-light. A sub-$100 LED panel would provide plenty of light at close range. For $68 (you'll need Sony NP format batteries- very affordable) this is a great deal and has many uses: http://www.amazon.com/Yongnuo-Professional-300pcs-sheets-Camera/dp/B00AZFE5DS/

[raf702]

If I had the $$ I'd get both, but if I had to choose. Then I would get the BMCC hands down, it's fairly inexpensive to purchase, new or second hand. If you need slow-mo above 60fps, just rent the FS700, shouldn't cost much at all to rent.

[Zach Ashcraft]

I would absolutely rent the FS700. It's a well thought out camera that's more or less made for a production environment. The black magic can be stunning but can cause so many headaches in the process. Having experience with the FS700 will be more beneficial for you in the future if you get hired for more jobs and end up working with professional cameras.

[TIAN]

Thanks all!
Im still a bit on the fence. Im leaning towards the fs700, but couple of things bugs me.
Im reading different opinions on the slog2 vs cinegamma choice (internally). As I understand it, slog is better for dynamic range but cinegamma for grading. Is that true? I know pairing with a 7q is best but thats not a option due to budget.
On that note, I want to power it through an ac adapter through the wall (it will be a fully studio shot) but cant find if this is possible. I know the BMCC has this option.
Also, is a class10 SD enough to shoot 240 internally on the fs700?

[jcs]

The FS700 comes with an AC adapter. Class10 works fine: slomo is written out from the memory buffer to SDHC at 24fps (24Mbps).

[TIAN]

Thank you once again for your input. I've decided to go for the FS700 and thought screw it, lets throw a bit more money at it and rent the 7Q as well!

 

Well, it is maybe a bit too much new info and possibilites to check out. What I want is 'simple', I want to record slow motion compressed, for uncompressed is just too much to handle for this project. But as I just found out (after I've made the payment for the rent, we'll be shooting next weekend), you can't shoot 120 or 240 fps compressed, only uncompressed. Which I found strange because I thought uncompressed would be harder to record. But I'm stuck to RAW on my slow motion shots, a bit of a bummer since I've no experience in that regard.

So my first question, is there a way to convert your CinemaDNG files to the aforementioned DNxHD codec? Or does this have to be done in Premiere? I don't think I will need the extra data in post, so it would save time/processing power if I can batch convert or even singel manually convert the RAW files to something workable.

Secondly, does anyone have any experience recording high fps on the 7Q? Since I do not fully aprehend what setting I should set the fs700 and the 7Q.

Thirdly, I've been reading up on the difference between 23.976, 24 and 25 fps. I thought the consesus was too always shoot 23.976 but does that only validates for US users? As Im form the Netherlands, a 230V with a 50hz freq country, and delivering only for online/vimeo, is 25fps not the best setting to record/export to? Or does this complicate shooting slow motion in 240fps?

So many questions haha, and I have only a couple of hourse to learn the system before shooting, so I want to learn as much as possible beforehand

[Zatara]

The FS700 + 7Q (FS7Q) is fantastic combo!

 

Bear in mind, for 240fps slow motion, you'll need two of the Odyssey SSDs, if you shoot 120fps, you can get by with one.  You'll fill up that space FAST, so either shoot judiciously, or be ready to quickly dump your footage.  The RAW quality is far better than the onboard slow motion recording, however, and you're not limited to 8 or 16 seconds (for 240 or 120 fps, respectively), so the 7Q option is easily superior to the FS700 onboard slow motion.

 

For recording, put the 7Q in FS700 RAW mode, and you'll send the RAW stream out of the FS700 to the 7Q (you can enable this via the menu on the FS700 under REC SET).  You'll set the FS700 to slow motion with the S&Q mode button (either 120 or 240, depending on preference -- note you'll want to select 2K mode with the S&Q button [hit it twice], the 7Q can't yet record 4K slow mo).  You can adjust what speed slow motion you want in the FS700 menu options.

 

For your non-slow mo shots, you can use the 4K Raw to HD ProRes option, which is really fantastic, and saves a ton on space (well, compared to RAW anyway), and you don't have to worry about transcoding later.

 

For converting your RAW over to DNxHD or ProRes (w/ Miraizon, on Windows), snag a copy of Resolve (10 or 11, both free!) and process your RAW files there.  If you haven't used Resolve before, watch a quick youtube tutorial to orient yourself, but you won't need to do much to get your files ready for your NLE (set the gamma and colorspace to BMD Film, keep the white balance as shot [unless your WB was way off during recording], and bump your exposure up by ~2.0).  With those settings you can either do a more fine tuned grade in Resolve, or just export to DNxHD or ProRes and do your final grade later.  Just remember you're 'baking in' more info when you export, so you'll want to fix any major issues with the original RAWs before you export (e.g. white balance, exposure).  I archive the DNGs until the project is done, just in case, then toss them (always saving the ProRes versions, of course).  Bear in mind, though it's called 'RAW,' the FS700 files aren't as flexible as on a stills DSLR -- Sony bakes some stuff in -- so you need to get your exposure and white balance as close as possible when shooting (for exposure, use the 7Q's waveform, it's great!)

 

Finally, the slow motion files, if not exposed with a ton of light, can get a bit noisy, but Neat Video does a great job cleaning them up, so you want to invest in that if you don't already have it.

 

I'd stick with 24 fps if you're shooting for web (and, for that matter, if you set the FS700 to use shutter degrees,  you can maintain a nice 180 degree shutter when switching back and forth between slow motion and normal speed, making your life easier).

 

Oh, and one last point on transferring files off the 7Q -- you need to download Convergent Design app to 'reconsitute' your slow motion files, since it splits 240fps files across both drives.  Just do a straight copy of each SSD to your PC and then run the app.  Whatever you do, don't mess with the file structure on the SSDs, and DON'T delete anything off them via your PC -- use the 'format' function on the 7Q itself.

[TIAN]

Wow Zatara what a great reply! Just the info I needed! Really appreciate it.

Ok so slow motion RAW it will be! I guess it's best to just head into the fray and deal with it, gotta learn to work wit uncompressed at some point. But like you said, I gotta pick my slomo shots really careful to keep the excessive data in check. With that said tho, do you know if there's a rough estimate at how large a second recordtime is in 240fps RAW datawise. So not the processed 24fps files, but a second recordtime. I gotta know how many external TB's I've gotta purchase ;).

About offloading, I'll be shooting on location with two old laptops (one MacBook, one Windows) with usb2.0 connections. What will be a good way to load off the data to external hard disks? I can't find a simpel SSD to usb cable to plug into a laptop, or doesn't it work like that. And how long would it take to offload a 512GB card via old usb2.0 ports?

Also, besides 240fps uncompressed what else requires the recorder to have both ssd recording. Cause, maybe I'll use the 2K RAW to Proress record option to get the best image quality, but don't think i can use it if it also requires both ssd (for I'll be offloading 1 ssd whilst recording on the other as much as possible)

Another point, will the 7Q playback the recorded 240fps shots in 24fps? Or another framerate? Not that it really matters what framerate it plays it, just that it we'll be able to see the recorded image! I can imagine that 240fps RAW can be played back as it isnt technically a video file.

On the RAW NLE workflow, just to know if I got it right. The best way is to manually transcode every single file to Proress or the Avid codec? And then import those files into Premiere? I'll guess that takes a whole lot of processing time ;).

In terms of recording settings and shutter degree, if I understand correctly, it supports 1/48s to get the dubbel of 24fps. So it should be set on 1/480s for 240fps recording?

Oh and does the FS700 allow to record internally on SDs for backup, while outputting the crazy 240fps RAW?

And one last thing! I alway dial in the WB on a DSLR cause I find the manual grey card way to not always be like I want it to be. How easy is it to set WB on the FS700?

[froess]

First of all, you don't need to render your sequences from premiere to resolve, just export an xml or an edl to resolve. No need to render to a specific codec. Look into it and you'll see it's way better than to render to an uncompressed quicktime or something like that. Do some testes before because resolve likes to give some headaches if you don't have the appropriate hardware.

 

In terms of the camera, you already know the pros and cons of each one. blackmagic has a better image but that doesn't mean that the image from the fs700 is bad. If you use the fs700, you will need to render your sequence from premiere because of the non avchd support in resolve.

 

If you use the blackmagic, no need to transcode. If there's no effects, you might be able to edit in resolve 11.

 

If slow motion is that important, than use the fs700. You might get some good results with the blackmagic and twixtor but you really need to understang the plug in and how to avoid problems.

 

Altough i prefer the image from blackmagic, with your conditions for this project, i would use the fs700 because of the slow motion, nice image, sd cards and battery life. You will probably have to rent an adapter for the ef lenses. But if your work goes well, you might be able to film everything you need to in the correct timing and will be able to not spend all that much...

[Zatara]

Wow Zatara what a great reply! Just the info I needed! Really appreciate it.

Ok so slow motion RAW it will be! I guess it's best to just head into the fray and deal with it, gotta learn to work wit uncompressed at some point. But like you said, I gotta pick my slomo shots really careful to keep the excessive data in check. With that said tho, do you know if there's a rough estimate at how large a second recordtime is in 240fps RAW datawise. So not the processed 24fps files, but a second recordtime. I gotta know how many external TB's I've gotta purchase ;).

 

I think I get about 10 minutes of 'actual' recording time using two 256GB SSDs.  Conformed, that 10 minutes @ 240fps becomes 100 minutes of 24fps slow motion.  It'll take awhile to dump all of that info via USB 2.0, so you might want to see if there's any chance of grabbing a laptop with either Thunderbolt or USB3.0 (USB 2.0 won't transfer faster than 35MB/s, though it typically won't even transfer that quickly).

 

You'll be able to preview your slow motion footage right on the 7Q but only at 120fps speeds -- so it'll be twice as slow when viewed on a computer.

 

You might also need two SSDS for 4K @ 60fps,  but I rarely shoot in that mode, and don't remember off the top of my head.

 

 

 

On the RAW NLE workflow, just to know if I got it right. The best way is to manually transcode every single file to Proress or the Avid codec? And then import those files into Premiere? I'll guess that takes a whole lot of processing time 

;)

. 

 

Yeah, editing directly off the DNGs is a real pain, so you'll want to convert to a more usable codec (ProRes or DNxHD) as your first step.  It front loads your rendering time, but either of those codecs are far more manageable inside your NLE, and I work off the ProRes all the way through grading (you can also grade your stuff in Resolve before going exporting to ProRes, if you prefer grading before editing, though the DNGs will tax your system more than ProRes/DNxHD).  That said, ideally, don't ditch the DNGs until the project is done, if you can avoid it.  For the initial transcoding, you can toss a bunch of clips on one timeline in Resolve, and render them all out at once, as separate files -- that can save a bit of time.

 

Re: the FS700 settings:

 

Yup, stick to the 180 degree shutter rule (or as close as the camera will allow you to get), unless you're stylistically looking for something else (you can set the FS700 to show your shutter angle in degrees instead of shutter speed).

 

Simultaneous record: You CAN'T simultaneously record slow motion on the FS700 and the 7Q (since the FS700 uses a buffer method for this).  You CAN simultaneously record regular old 24fps on the 7Q and FS700.  This even works in 4K2HD mode -- I always simul-record just in case!

 

White balance: Yup, really easy to dial in manually, in 100K increments.  Though note the color cast on the 7Q and FS700 screens isn't exactly the same (my 7Q screen, at least, seems a teeny bit green).

 

Finally, froess mentions the EF adapter -- the Metabones EF Speedbooster is awesome, and I more or less only use EF glass on my FS700 (unless I need the SELP18-200 for the smooth zoom).  Though not necessary, it really opens up your lens selection choices (albeit at the expense of autofocus and smooth iris changes) -- they also make Speedboosters (and regular adapters) for a variety of other mounts (Nikon, FD, etc).

[jcs]

If lighting/noise is an issue, you can shoot at 1/FPS for the shutter: e.g. 240 fps with a 1/240th shutter (vs. 1/480).

[TIAN]

Thank you all! I think you answered all of my worries ;). One last thing though, like I mentioned I'll only have two laptops with usb 2.0 ports and external hard disks at my disposal. What will will me the quickest way to get the data from the SSD's to the hard disks? As I only have one day to shoot and two 512gb SSD's won't be enough I'm afraid for the whole day.

 

EDIT: For instance will this suffice to transfer data to our laptops?

 

'>

[Zatara]

Yep, that connector should work (the CD transfer cable is basically a generic USB 3.0 to SATA connector) -- but do a test before critical transferring just to be sure!

Beware, though, that transfer speeds will be slow -- you're looking at at least 4 hours to transfer EACH 512GB drive over USB 2.0. Might want to consider renting an extra set of SSDs if you'll need it! And remember, you CAN'T delete files directly off the 7Q -- you need to transfer the files then format the drives back on the 7Q, to avoid corrupting the file structure. Though, you don't need to transfer everything if you just need one take and don't need/want the rest (just copy the take you want then reformat back in the 7Q).

Thunderbolt and USB 3.0 make a huge difference in throughput, but even then, remember a standard mechanical disk will slow down your transfer speeds compared to the 7Q SSDs, so for quick transfers on set, you'd want to go SSD to SSD (or RAID array, if you've got plug-in power).

[TIAN]

Yep was afraid of that. But I think its the only way. So we have to be really carefull what shots we will choose for slowmo.
Regarding SSD to SSD, is there a way to transfer the dats more quickly via a laptop to another SSD (a non CD normal SSD)? Or is there still a bottleneck, cause of the usb2.0?