Deciding closest modern camera to Digital Bolex look

[kye]

That's very promising looking footage, and definitely the right sized cameras - 80 x 80 x 50mm and under 400g (3.2" x 3.2" x  2" / 0.89lbs)

[kye]

Double post

[kye]

Triple post... 

*sigh*

[KnightsFan]

7 hours ago, IronFilm said:

It's a pity they're going to give a big fat middle finger to the film industry and not use any kind of commonly normal process for TC or audio

I'm not sure that giving a middle finger is a fair assessment. More like they are expecting/hoping for 3rd party solutions. I expect they'll have a fairly open API. Although--from the early pics, there's a lack of mounting points, and having the screen on the back makes a modular approach difficult.

But I actually agree with what Octopus said. I'd rather bolt any decent audio interface onto a camera than rely on a small manufacturer trying to reinvent the wheel and make a quality audio. Especially since almost all Zoom recorders are interfaces, so you can have proper recorder-style ergonomics rather than (for example) trying to record on an Audient Evo or something.

I guess what I'm saying is that IF someone makes a 3rd party TC solution, then I'm fine with the modular USB approach, since other manufacturers cover the all-in-one option.

I hope Octopus finds success. I love what they're doing. I can't see myself going for a small sensor, not with the lenses I have, but maybe if the 16mm is successful they'll make that full frame camera they prototyped as well!

[QuickHitRecord]

6 hours ago, kye said:

That's very promising looking footage, and definitely the right sized cameras - 80 x 80 x 50mm and under 400g (3.2" x 3.2" x  2" / 0.89lbs)

It's the first test footage I've seen in a long time that made me think, "Well, that's different!". The colors feel a little overzealous, but there's something immersive about the this footage (and I own that Cosmicar lens). At least to me. And they dynamic range test on the bus is remarkable. If they launch a pre-order, I may have to break my "No Gear Year" and put myself on that list.

[kye]

7 hours ago, QuickHitRecord said:

It's the first test footage I've seen in a long time that made me think, "Well, that's different!". The colors feel a little overzealous, but there's something immersive about the this footage (and I own that Cosmicar lens). At least to me. And they dynamic range test on the bus is remarkable. If they launch a pre-order, I may have to break my "No Gear Year" and put myself on that list.

I also thought that the colours were overzealous, but this is actually a good thing - increasing saturation on poor quality footage really reveals weaknesses in the codec and colour science, so the fact that the colours don't reveal such weaknesses is a real plus.  Had they posted only desaturated images I would have immediately suspected they were covering up some weakness, but this is obviously not the case.

[sanveer]

From Newsshooter.com 

(https://www.newsshooter.com/2024/02/02/octopus16-pocket-sized-super-16-cinema-camera-for-under-1000-usd/)

"According to Octopus Cinema, with the increasing competition in the cinema camera market, the primary goal of the OCTOPUS CAMERA is to fill a gap in the market where users require a specific product for a specific application. These specific features include native monochrome sensor imaging and a fully open SDK to extend and embed custom behaviour in the camera.

The camera is not being targeted as a competitor against most other digital cinema cameras that are already on the market."

 

It sound Strange. It almost sounds like they do not want to make a 16mm cinema camera. 

[KnightsFan]

9 hours ago, sanveer said:

It sound Strange. It almost sounds like they do not want to make a 16mm cinema camera. 

Well yes, they spent the last few years making an 8K full frame camera, so it's implicit to me that going for 16mm size was for economic reasons and that their goal is larger format. Nothing wrong with that, in fact, many camera companies started with small sensor, simple cameras (Z Cam E1, BMCC 2.5k) before earning the credibility to sell more expensive, feature-rich models (F6 Pro, BM 12k).

I read a comment years ago that the 8K LF model was going to be $13k or something. Presumably they realized that their 8K LF dream might not work out on a first model. (I've been checking on Octopus every few months since the announcement in 2019, so at one point or another I've seen most of their posts and comments)

[IronFilm]

On 2/4/2024 at 5:36 AM, KnightsFan said:

I'm not sure that giving a middle finger is a fair assessment. More like they are expecting/hoping for 3rd party solutions. I expect they'll have a fairly open API. Although--from the early pics, there's a lack of mounting points, and having the screen on the back makes a modular approach difficult.

Relying upon third party manufacturers to get any sort of semi usable audio or TC with these cameras is exactly why they'll fail to be successfully popular in the film industry. 

It's like releasing a camera that needs third party manufacturers to support using an external monitor or mounting any lens to it. 

Would be shooting it dead in the water from day one. 

3 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

Well yes, they spent the last few years making an 8K full frame camera, so it's implicit to me that going for 16mm size was for economic reasons and that their goal is larger format. Nothing wrong with that, in fact, many camera companies started with small sensor, simple cameras (Z Cam E1, BMCC 2.5k) before earning the credibility to sell more expensive, feature-rich models (F6 Pro, BM 12k).

I read a comment years ago that the 8K LF model was going to be $13k or something. Presumably they realized that their 8K LF dream might not work out on a first model. (I've been checking on Octopus every few months since the announcement in 2019, so at one point or another I've seen most of their posts and comments)

Yes, it's hard for anybody to commit to buying a US$13K camera from a company with zero track record.

But if they've already got a few successful cameras (i.e. Z Cam E1 / BMCC / etc) then it's easier to take that risky leap of faith in their newer products. 

[KnightsFan]

20 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Relying upon third party manufacturers to get any sort of semi usable audio or TC with these cameras is exactly why they'll fail to be successfully popular in the film industry. 

I don't think the target audience is the "film industry" to be honest. Probably more likely to find its way in the hands of tinkerers, auteurs who already have other cameras, and maybe some very specific applications like low budget crash cams when you can't afford Komodos.

Quote

It's like releasing a camera that needs third party manufacturers to support using an external monitor or mounting any lens to it. 

Would be shooting it dead in the water from day one. 

Z Cam relied on 3rd party monitors from day 1. Their standard was HDMI for video, Octopus' is USB for audio. Both are consumer connectors with extremely wide support among consumer products.

It's worth pointing out that this Octopus camera has the same audio and TC solution as the OG BMPCC and most hybrid cams, except that it can also record synced, bit perfect audio from your favorite Zoom recorder (or thousands of low budget audio interfaces)

 

I don't necessarily disagree with you, IronFilm, but it's a different audience and their tradeoff was in favor of smaller size, weight, and price. So I wouldn't use the term "huge middle finger" personally, more like they decided on a different audience and feature set

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

I don't think the target audience is the "film industry" to be honest. Probably more likely to find its way in the hands of tinkerers, auteurs who already have other cameras, and maybe some very specific applications like low budget crash cams when you can't afford Komodos.

In that case they'll be limiting themselves to a market even smaller than the Digital Bolex was targeting. 

Or as I called it earlier: "shooting themselves in the foot"

 

2 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

Quote

It's like releasing a camera that needs third party manufacturers to support using an external monitor or mounting any lens to it. 

Would be shooting it dead in the water from day one. 

Z Cam relied on 3rd party monitors from day 1. Their standard was HDMI for video, Octopus' is USB for audio. Both are consumer connectors with extremely wide support among consumer products.

Z Cam can use any random camera monitor with an HDMI input. Very common. 

If a 1st AC was rung up and told they're shooting with any Z Cam (or any  Blackmagic) tomorrow, then they can sort out the cables / monitors ready to use for tomorrow. With less than 24hrs notice, even if ran up late at night. Might not be pretty and might not be the perfect solution, but they could rustle up "something". 

Ditto, same is (mostly) true for me as a Sound Mixer. (ZCams need a quirky TC adapter for the DB9 connector, but at least there is the Aux LTC "work around")

This not true for for the Octopus. 

In such a scenario, then I'd be badly screwed over. Severely so, it might even torpedo the whole project. Either that, or it will force a last minute camera change, so that the Octopus is not used. 

2 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

It's worth pointing out that this Octopus camera has the same audio and TC solution as the OG BMPCC and most hybrid cams

Not true. 

The Octopus doesn't have internal scratch audio or a 3.5mm input, which it truly does need both at a minimum.

(note: I said "minimum", as hybrid cameras are unpopular for a reason on commercial projects. Exactly because of the hassle of working with it) 

[KnightsFan]

11 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Z Cam can use any random camera monitor with an HDMI input. Very common. 

11 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

This not true for for the Octopus. 

I was referring to audio. Octopus can use any random audio interface with USB, which is also very common.

16 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

The Octopus doesn't have internal scratch audio or a 3.5mm input, which it truly does need both at a minimum.

Are you sure? If so then you're right, it's not quite the same. I'd be kinda surprised if it doesn't have internal scratch audio though. I can't remember seeing anything about it not having any--but I might have missed something! Anyway, a USB dongle for a 3.5mm scratch mic is what, $10?

So clearly you and many other people need 3.5mm and scratch audio at a minimum and I'm certainly not dismissing that. My point is that I don't. For me its either true scratch audio, or I'm running a real recorder. I'm happy with adding a dongle and scratch mic if I need to. I'd love timecode input, but there also aren't many (any?) options <$1k that have TC in. Digital bolex didn't. I'd say wait and see what their API looks like. If you can have some simple code that reads LTC from a USB dongle then I'd say that's already better than almost everything else at the price, including Z Cam (which I say as a Z Cam owner with the ridiculous dongle, haha)

I guess I just think you're expecting too many big-production features considering the price they're targeting, while glossing over the unique feature that they have instead--and I mean truly no-one-else-has-it unique. All I'm saying is I'd trade internal audio for USB audio, but I don't expect everyone else to.

 

 

41 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Ditto, same is (mostly) true for me as a Sound Mixer. (ZCams need a quirky TC adapter for the DB9 connector, but at least there is the Aux LTC "work around")

This not true for for the Octopus. 

In such a scenario, then I'd be badly screwed over. Severely so, it might even torpedo the whole project. Either that, or it will force a last minute camera change, so that the Octopus is not used.

Yeah 100% this camera is not for the kind of productions you usually work on.

[Chrille]

I am really wondering how much it would be to buy the complete Digitial Bolex project ( incl. contakt to manufacturers etc.)  from the original creators. I guess all the technical parts have become dirt cheap since the original release.

[kye]

1 hour ago, Chrille said:

I am really wondering how much it would be to buy the complete Digitial Bolex project ( incl. contakt to manufacturers etc.)  from the original creators. I guess all the technical parts have become dirt cheap since the original release.

Do you mean technical parts like the chips etc?  If so, maybe they're out of stock and no longer being manufactured, so would be practically infinite in cost, rather than cheap.

[mercer]

Audio is annoying, that's why they still ADR, a good portion, of a lot of films.

[eatstoomuchjam]

FWIW, the debate about USB audio may be irrelevant - the write up on newsshooter says that they plan to add a dedicated 3.5mm ltc time code port and 3.5mm mic and headphone jacks.

Overall, it looks pretty cool to me.  If they really can deliver it at less than $1k, I’ll likely be a customer.  

[KnightsFan]

1 hour ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

FWIW, the debate about USB audio may be irrelevant - the write up on newsshooter says that they plan to add a dedicated 3.5mm ltc time code port and 3.5mm mic and headphone jacks.

You're right-- I knew I had that in my head from somewhere, but for some reason I missed it when I skimmed the article again yesterday.

Apologies for my share of misinformation!

[IronFilm]

Anybody have any guesses as to what sensor the OCTOPUS16 is using? 

Maybe it is the Sony IMX585?? It is not a 1" sensor though, it is a 1/1.2 type, but the resolution and pixel size lines up with what they're talking about. 

Is it a cheap enough sensor though? Maybe, maybe not, when you look at the various prices of chinese made cameras using the IMX585, then it might be a struggle for a boutique camera manufacturer in the UK to hit sub $1K RRP for their first ever camera if it is using the IMX585

But I guess this is ballpark kind of sensor we might be seeing in it?? 

Edit:
Never mind, I missed the bit where it said "will use XIMEA’s 1.1-inch".

But which one??? 

There are a few of them:

https://www.ximea.com/en/products 

22 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

I was referring to audio. Octopus can use any random audio interface with USB, which is also very common.

Walk onto any random film set. Odds are you will not find a USB audio interface anywhere on set. 

Exceptions:

1) perhaps the Sound Mixer's recorder (maybe.... but not the case if it is any Zaxcom, or any Sound Devices 6 / 7 Series , or many others that are still quite popular).  But I sure as hell am not tying my Sound Bag to the side of the camera! (neither would the AC or Cam Op want that)

2) perhaps the QTake Playback Operator's cart (if there is even one on set, smaller productions won't have this) has a typical USB audio interface built into it. But is he going to pull it out to put in the camera? Hell no! (and the AC / Cam Op certainly doesn't want it either) 

Meanwhile, if you're to ask for any of:

75ohm BNC cable 

HDMI cable 

3.5mm cable 

XLR cable

....all very easy to find!

If you want a product to be successful, then you need it to be easy for them to work with on their shoots. And not be throwing a whole bunch of problems at them which are completely unnecessary and should never have existed in the first place with a teeny bit of common sense though done during the design process. 

22 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

Are you sure? If so then you're right, it's not quite the same. I'd be kinda surprised if it doesn't have internal scratch audio though. I can't remember seeing anything about it not having any--but I might have missed something!

Nowhere has it mentioned it has internal audio. 

22 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

Anyway, a USB dongle for a 3.5mm scratch mic is what, $10?

 You're wanting a frictionless experience for the user, not making them hunt down parts they've never seen or used ever before. And the specific bits and bobs they want might not even be in stock in their town / city. 

When even every single hybrid camera (hardly ones known to ever put a great priority on audio!) have scratch audio, and all of the semi decent ones intended for videographers have an audio input, then why can't the Octopus?? It can't even exceed the very low bar set by hybrid cameras!

For goodness sake, even ARRI & RED these days (who would always be assuming TC is being used 100% of the time their cameras, plus always have had an audio input on all of theirs) now has scratch audio for all of their cameras!

It's 2024 now. Any camera intended for filmmakers needs to have these three things:

Timecode, audio input, inbuilt scratch audio. 

(or at least two out of those three things)

22 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

Yeah 100% this camera is not for the kind of productions you usually work on.

Not true, I work on everything from indie / student productions, up to AAA budget productions, and everything in between. 

And I can definitely see the OCTOPUS16 being used as an A Cam on the smaller ones, or a Crash Cam in the AAA productions, or be used on any sized productions in between as well. 

So long as they don't screw up the critically important details to it! Such as leaving out completely any kind of sensible audio/TC setup for it. 

19 hours ago, Chrille said:

I am really wondering how much it would be to buy the complete Digitial Bolex project ( incl. contakt to manufacturers etc.)  from the original creators. I guess all the technical parts have become dirt cheap since the original release.

Either dirt cheap due to commodification (unlikely) or extremely expensive (or even outright impossible to get!) due to being out of production. 

Look at a part mentioned for the Octopus 8K camera:

https://www.octopuscinema.com/wiki/index.php/OCTOPUSCAMERA_8K_LF 

The mainboard, "Intel NUC 11 Pro Board NUC11TNBi7". You look it up and you discover... it's no longer available:

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/205601/intel-nuc-11-pro-board-nuc11tnbi7.html 

You could go onto eBay and scrap together a few of them, but now you're running into serious QC issues you have to stay on top of because of using eBay vs buying new. Plus you can never get them at a large enough volume to sell the camera at commercial quantities (not even for a boutique camera manufacturer). 

17 hours ago, kye said:

Do you mean technical parts like the chips etc?  If so, maybe they're out of stock and no longer being manufactured, so would be practically infinite in cost, rather than cheap.

And every part that's missing would require going back to to the drawing board for a redesign process (with all the resulting testing/refinement afterwards as well). 

Probably by now, the DB16 is so old, it would make more sense for a new player to start themselves from scratch rather than to replicable the DB16. 

3 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

FWIW, the debate about USB audio may be irrelevant - the write up on newsshooter says that they plan to add a dedicated 3.5mm ltc time code port and 3.5mm mic and headphone jacks.

Ohhhh... Newshooter must've updated the article from when I read it when it was first published. A little annoying when they do that, but also I guess it's good they update it when they get fresh info from the source to make corrections or give extra info. 

Although, they've still got a bunch of errors in that Newsshooter article, such as:

 

Q. When do you hope to have Octopus available to purchase?
A. We are looking to have the 1.1-inch model available by Q3 2020.

Riiiight! 

Anyway, if you read the Q&A in article with the developer of the camera himself (which probably is a more accurate reflection of their original true intentions), before they added on the extra "Planned final features and capabilities" (presumably based on feedback? Phew? Disaster averted? Maybe?) then it was very very clear their thinking was to only allow TC or audio over USB:

Quote

Will the camera have any audio capabilities and any plans for any type of modules to support SDI/Timecode etc.?
The camera body has 4 USB3 ports which we intend to use for digital audio recording and supporting new add-on modules – either third-party or developed ourselves.

We could add SDI output through a separate module connected via USB3, but for the time being the device only supports natively two HDMI2.0 outputs.

Timecode can be added through third-party products which can receive/send timecode information via USB:
http://www.ese-web.com/es71.htm

It would be our aim to support these products should it be on many peoples wish lists.

Timecode can be added through third-party products which can receive/send timecode information via USB:
http://www.ese-web.com/es71.htm

It would be our aim to support these products should it be on many peoples wish lists.

For USB audio recording, operators can choose from high-end field recorders with USB audio device support, direct USB microphones, or a low profile XLR to USB interface device such as:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Shure-Adapter-integrated-Monitoring-Headphone-x/dp/B001PPXFAG

We believe USB audio recording to be a good solution as it defers the A/D conversion to dedicated and isolated audio hardware.

Hope Octopus sticks to their new plans with external audio & TC, doesn't go back to their bad old plans of using USB!!

[eatstoomuchjam]

Since they’re using a Raspberry Pi CM4 as the base for the camera, keep in mind that it’s still possible that TC and/or audio will be over USB - it’s just that it might be a USB device that sits inside the camera where the user can never see it.  I think I’ve seen some CM4 boards that offer a 3.5mm jack so audio might be onboard without needing another adapter - but for TC, it depends, I’m sure, on how long it takes to implement TC right (given how much I see sound people complaining about how poorly various cameras support it, I’d guess it’s a harder problem than it seems).  😅

[BTM_Pix]

Probably of interest in the context of a sub $1000 camera is that the ES-71 usb timecode interface that they have referenced is $325, so is more or less a third of the price of the camera itself so that 3.5mm input will be important for many.

As it has integral BLE then the additional path they should likely try and take is incorporating one of the BLE Timecode protocols. In terms of supporting a broader range of recorders and other cameras then Atomos/Timecode Systems would likely be the preferred choice.