A7RV announced

[IronFilm]

7 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Love Nikon and arguably, the Z9 is THE hybrid camera to have right now and ticks all of my boxes, but it only ticks all of my boxes as one unit of three...and Nikon themselves don't currently have anything else that works for me and multiple systems is not really an option.

It also is very expensive for a stills camera! Close to the same price as a Sony FX6. 

Makes the Panasonic S1H look cheap. 

7 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Compromise 2: Err, it's Sony and I'd rather champion the underdog?

Solution to Compromise 2: pretend it is the early 2010's. 

Compromise 3: using the FX30 for professional still photography.... really?? Or would you only use the a7Rmk4 for that? (or maybe pick up an a6600 on the cheap, or an a7mk4, to bring along instead of the 2nd FX30 if you know your day will be more stills focused than video based?)

 

[newfoundmass]

If I had to make a choice right now about what system to go all in on it'd be Sony. But I wouldn't be happy about it. Like @MrSMWit's not that I hate Sony, it's just I'm not inspired by them. I don't ENJOY using their cameras and I've never been a big fan of the images they produce. It's not that they're bad, it's just... They're Sony. 

The FX30 is nothing special, but the price? It's hard to beat. It'd be very easy to buy 2 or 3 of them for my work and be done with it. And the system's long term health is guaranteed. 

I'm thankful though that I'm not in a position where I need to make that choice, and can further see what everyone else does in the next year or two before deciding what direction I go in. I'm probably putting too much faith in Panasonic, but I do think they'll announce something big next year. I think they have to, their long term viability I think depends on it. 

[newfoundmass]

One thing though that IS annoying me about Sony is that they're becoming more insular. That certain features are becoming dependent on using Sony lenses, Sony software, etc. feels like a move in the wrong direction. You can argue that it's necessary to achieve some of these features but, for example, I don't see a valid reason why they can't work with Sigma or Tamron to ensure their most popular lenses work with things like focus breathing compensation. It wasn't long ago that Sony relied on them to beef up their lens selection and a lot of people bought into it because of them. 

[IronFilm]

17 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

I'm thankful though that I'm not in a position where I need to make that choice, and can further see what everyone else does in the next year or two before deciding what direction I go in. I'm probably putting too much faith in Panasonic, but I do think they'll announce something big next year. I think they have to, their long term viability I think depends on it. 

Fingers crossed for all of these (or at least a few of it):

Varicam series update (not this please: https://ymcinema.com/2022/10/21/panasonic-announces-5-7k-super-35-cinematic-studio-camera/ ) and/or a real price price discount on the Varicam LT (not this nonsense: https://ymcinema.com/2022/10/25/panasonic-offers-massive-savings-on-varicam-lt-but-to-higher-price/ )

Panasonic EVA2 with L Mount (won't be MFT sadly, that's dreaming)

Another Panasonic S series update (it's been a while... give us either a S1 mk2, or something similar)

Panasonic G85 mk2 (no, neither the G100 or G90 was that!!), because the Panasonic MFT was famous for fantastic filming cameras at very low prices. But I feel with the upwards price creep of the GH series then Panasonic is losing that. And the lower priced Panasonic G85 is so very old, it is losing its relevance in late 2022. 

 

[MrSMW]

4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

It also is very expensive for a stills camera! Close to the same price as a Sony FX6. 

Makes the Panasonic S1H look cheap.

Expensive full stop! But if I had gone that route, it would be as much a video camera for me as a stills, ie, genuine equal hybrid use. An FX6 is a completely different beast, - pure video and as such, utterly useless to me/for my needs.

Z9 has moved the game on well beyond the S1H now. Don't get me wrong, I have enjoyed my time with the S1H, but the Z9 has almost double the stills resolution, without a filter, plus uncropped 8k 50p whereas my S1H can only do 4k cropped. From a purely 'pulling stills' from video, as a hybrid shooter, that is ENORMOUS. In camera, no rigging, - I am a hybrid wedding shooter not a purist filmmaker.

4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Compromise 3: using the FX30 for professional still photography.... really??

You skim reader you 😜

I wrote: 100% video use, as in 0% photography use. Other than backup if required in a pinch.

Actually, I have only been using LCD for years now so the lack of a viewfinder with the FX30 doesn't bother me and with this and the A7RV, they have improved both the auto WB (which I mainly use for my work) and colour compared with all other and preexisting models. For the first time, I actually quite like Sony colour!

My needs are pretty simple yet VERY specific.

20+ years ago, I started out as a film photographer.

Around 15 years ago, I switched to digital.

Around 12 years ago, I added a video element and have been developing that ever since from being a photographer who offered a year on year, gradually improving/more consistent/more comprehensive video coverage, to a true one man band hybrid operator.

For the last 3 years, other than one single 'photo only' job, everything I do is 50% photo and 50% video.

Actually it's 100% photo and 100% video, ie, at every job I do the same work as both a photographer and a videographer.

How?

Part tech, mostly development, the latter of which has had a lot of trial and error.

I have 'achieved' the results I have partly because of and partly despite, the kit.

I now need to remove...or at least greatly reduce the 'partly despite' part of the equation.

My needs are quite straightforward and the exercise here is simply, "brand aside, which tools are going to best allow me to do creatively what I need to do with the least compromise and least frustration".

Right now, as in today, that is Sony.

I need 3 cameras to do my job.

Most of the time, I work with 2 and with something like the Z9, could actually use just 1.

But at every job, there are 2 key times when I need 3 bodies; 2 static video and 1 roaming hybrid.

Rest of the day I need; 1 roaming stills + 1 roaming video + 1 gimbal. The first 2 requirements could be combined into a single camera, a la Z9 and arguably could be with the A7RV, but for my needs, the A7RV is not a Z9, so in this instance, prefer the combo for the 'rest of the day', to be a dedicated stills unit in one hand and a dedicated video unit in the other.

Other reasons:

I can't keep compensating for less than stellar AF. AF is a key requirement for me at times and to date, I just have not had it so having to do workarounds (such as shooting at f8). No more!

IBIS is a key. Other than static video, maybe 90% of my work is handheld. I don't have time to faff with tripods or monopods and am not a fan of the 'handheld' look. I can't be using a gimbal all day long either, only at very specific times.

Lenses. It's not just about the bodies, but the total system. Of course there are compromises whether it be cost or size or weight or any other factor but my needs are the largest sensor possible in the smallest bodies possible all at a certain minimum spec level.

One of the key lenses for me is the Tamron 35-150mm f2/2.8. It's relatively large. Larger than I'd ideally like, but that compromise is exchanged for the need to rarely have to change my lens (just twice, near the beginning of the day and towards the end, to something wider) and my ideal working focal length just happens to be 35-150! Ie, I rarely have (but do have some) requirement to go wider but never longer.

Only 2 camera brands can currently shoot this lens; Sony natively and Nikon with an adaptor, but just what the performance is like with adaptor is a big Q as there is little info out there. Some, but not much and not really enough for a 8k+ investment to find out!

The summary of all of the above is I removed brand out of the equation and then with all other factors considered...for MY specific needs, then it's a clear 'win' for Sony.

Today.

I'm not investing a single penny today.

First off, I am packaging up my XH2 and sending it back for full refund.

Then I am off-loading all of my L Mount kit that I am not going to use ever again (4 bodies) and some of the glass, but holding on to a few lenses on the off-chance that L Mount plop out a new camera within the next few months that ticks my boxes.

I think the chance of that is slim, at least in time for early March when I need all my kit in place for the start of the next season.

Conclusion: There are several ways to skin the proverbial cat, but there is usually one that is better than the other options. Right now, that's Sony. Again, for MY needs. YMMV!

 

[MrSMW]

33 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

I don't ENJOY using their cameras and I've never been a big fan of the images they produce. It's not that they're bad, it's just...

From what I have seen of the FX30 and A7RV, they have tweaked a few bits again and it's just tipped the 'colour science' for me into the actually like it camp.

34 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

The FX30 is nothing special, but the price? It's hard to beat. It'd be very easy to buy 2 or 3 of them for my work and be done with it. And the system's long term health is guaranteed. 

Yep, all of that and exactly that.

34 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

I'm thankful though that I'm not in a position where I need to make that choice, and can further see what everyone else does in the next year or two before deciding what direction I go in. I'm probably putting too much faith in Panasonic, but I do think they'll announce something big next year. I think they have to, their long term viability I think depends on it. 

Unfortunately, I have to do something...

I'm grateful to have just been fully working again this year, but it's been 'painful'. Partly the sheer workload which has been insane, but mostly just fighting the tools to achieve the result. I really cannot...and do not, need to be going into another year doing that. So will not be.

Otherwise yes, I think it's more like they will being something out next year, but what and probably too late for me. I know some disagree and don't think companies need to inform us of their plans but as a business user, I disagree and have to make informed decisions based on fact/availability etc.

[The Dancing Babamef]

Photo camera first. I would ignore this as the price is only made up of the 60MP sensor which is utilized by cropping in video settings.

[Thpriest]

7 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Then I am off-loading all of my L Mount kit that I am not going to use ever again (4 bodies) and some of the glass, but holding on to a few lenses on the off-chance that L Mount plop out a new camera within the next few months that ticks my boxes.

Let me know what you are selling! I might be interested!

[kye]

7 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

One thing though that IS annoying me about Sony is that they're becoming more insular. That certain features are becoming dependent on using Sony lenses, Sony software, etc. feels like a move in the wrong direction. You can argue that it's necessary to achieve some of these features but, for example, I don't see a valid reason why they can't work with Sigma or Tamron to ensure their most popular lenses work with things like focus breathing compensation. It wasn't long ago that Sony relied on them to beef up their lens selection and a lot of people bought into it because of them. 

I think that's a direction that many dominant businesses are going - IIRC it's often called a "walled garden" or "closed ecosystem".  

Essentially, by making people buy everything from you, you can make your products shittier and people will still stay because you've made it harder to leave.  If Sony makes their cameras work with other lens manufacturers then you can take your lenses with you to your new system, but if you own Sony everything then there's more things to re-buy, and therefore, a higher cost to switch brands.

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, Thpriest said:

Let me know what you are selling! I might be interested!

Available shortly…

S1H being collected tomorrow for a sensor clean before sale.

S1R going off to hopefully have a ding sorted that has made the battery door a bit stiff, plus needs a new eye cup after a dog bit it. Yep, weddings can be dangerous places!

S5 also departing to have the LCD hinged repaired. That one was totally me.

Sigma 28-70 and Panny 25-105 I am currently holding onto just in case L Mount announces anything as those 2 are good workhorses for me.

Meike 50mm T2.1 in EF Mount with the Fotodiox VND adapter.

All the rest is being collected by MPB tomorrow!

[IronFilm]

18 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I wrote: 100% video use, as in 0% photography use. Other than backup if required in a pinch.

Soooo... what you're saying is that a 100% video camera such as the FX30 could find a role in your kit that would make sense? Brings me back to the question of.... why not a FX6? 

I think if it was me I'd get: a7Rmk5, a7mk4 (or a6600), FX6, FX30. 

But I wouldn't be mad enough to try and do both at a wedding. 

Instead it would be, stills shoot: a7Rmk5 + a7mk4 (FX30 emergency back up). 

Filming day: FX6 and FX30 (a7Rmk5 backup). 

But if I was trying to do both , I'd still take a similar approach, just I'd be context switching physically and mentally once per hour or so. Spend a while roaming with the FX6 with the a6600 on my hip should I spot a few photos I wish to grab. Then switch over to the a7Rmk5 for a while, focusing on photos, but with the FX30 on my hip should I wish to grab some video here or there. 

[MrSMW]

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Soooo... what you're saying is that a 100% video camera such as the FX30 could find a role in your kit that would make sense? Brings me back to the question of.... why not a FX6? 

Two reasons...

A: Overkill for my needs.

B: Real world run n' gun usability/size/weight for hybrid style shooting.

My needs are different to that of the purist wedding photographer I once was and also different to the purist videographer.

If I was ever to become a purist photographer again, my choice would be simple; 2 bodies and a set of 3 or maybe 4 prime lenses and I'd simply switch between those 3-4 as required. 

If I was providing a zero stills service, ie, was a purist vidoegrapher then yes, something like the FX6 along with a pair of FX30's might be my choice with Sony.

However, as a purist in either field, I probably would not use Sony, but Fuji for pure stills and stick with Panasonic for pure video on the basis that both would work brilliantly in either field.

I know that as a former Fuji shooter of 10 years and because Panny is what I currently run.

It's the specific requirements of shooting hybrid that causes the issues...

Fuji is still an option with a combo of XH2 and XH2S's, but I still have some niggles over lenses and a couple of other lesser issues, but it could still be a contender for me. Brand preference aside, I think Sony is just edging it for the hybrid shooter.

Nikon Z9 still makes the most sense also for the hybrid shooter and for one single reason and that is if in doubt, as in whenever the situation presents itself, "stills or video?", then arguably it's one of very few cameras on the planet where you can just point the thing in video mode and then pull off the stills later also. 8k 50p internal? Regular speed or 50% slow mo PLUS hi res stills as good as any 24mp FF camera? Err yeah, I'd have some of that action...and maybe still will...

Ultimately it comes down to 2 factors:

1. Real world use case and right now, for the hybrid shooter, Sony are No.1. As a system, ie, not any single piece of kit as arguably, as above, Nikon has THE camera right now.

2. Availability. I'm still hoping that Panasonic will drop my ideal mashup of the S5/S1R/S1H into a single body. I don't want much, just; S5 size body but with S1H vent and rear screen, plus something at least close to the S1R stills capability. That would be it, right there.

Right now, my ideal S5/S1R/S1H mashup does in fact exist. It's made by Sony and called the A7RV.

[MrSMW]

Something else I discovered last night that I had not previously seriously considered, was the ability to shoot APSC raw.

If I understand it correctly, the A7R5 has the ability to assign this feature to a function button and produce a file equal to, if not higher quality than a typical FF 24/26mp file.

That's pretty huge actually as I could probably then get away with not going the Tamron 35-150 route...as it's a bit of a monster and settle instead for the 28-75mm f2.8 which is a bit more reasonably sized and use it as and when required, as a 40-105mm in crop mode.

That has a lot of appeal to me as kit bloat is something that really has not helped my cause over the last few years. I really want to get back to a more minimalist approach.

That is still 3 cameras, - I can't get around that and it's non-negotiable. For ceremonies, I need one locked on the brides face, another locked on the grooms, whilst I roam and get longer, rear or simply just different perspectives.

Ditto speeches except it's one locked on the person speaking, second locked on the couple, third roaming/guest reactions, the wider scene etc.

Portability is MASSIVE. I can't...or rather am no longer prepared to get out of the car, sometimes parked 100's of metres away, and make anything but one single trip to or from the church. It's my new rule of thumb that if I cannot carry everything in one single direction whilst still operating at least one bit of kit, I don't need or want it.

I have used the crop function before I should add...

For video, with Panny, I have to use it for 4k 50p video and for stills, with the S1R, have used it a couple of times. Cropping from 60mp over 47mp should be even better.

I think...unless I am wrong, the Sony has the ability to shoot APSC raw whereas the Panny can only crop the Jpeg but the raw retains it's full size.

At least the latter is the case with my S1R, ie, in Lightroom, the full size raw is still available should I wish to use it's full potential, but with the new Sony, it's an actual APSC crop raw?

[kye]

31 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Portability is MASSIVE. I can't...or rather am no longer prepared to get out of the car, sometimes parked 100's of metres away, and make anything but one single trip to or from the church. It's my new rule of thumb that if I cannot carry everything in one single direction whilst still operating at least one bit of kit, I don't need or want it.

I think this is an aspect that gets overlooked by people that aren't out filming on their feet all day.

My own equivalent is that I have to be able to hold my camera in-hand for a whole day, only resting during breaks for food and bathrooms etc.  If it's not in my hand then it's not ready to film and so I miss shots and we all know that even barely usable footage is still better than the shot you didn't get.  This is one of the reasons I sold my Sigma 18-35, it was just too heavy.

[MrSMW]

4 hours ago, kye said:

I think this is an aspect that gets overlooked by people that aren't out filming on their feet all day.

My own equivalent is that I have to be able to hold my camera in-hand for a whole day, only resting during breaks for food and bathrooms etc.  If it's not in my hand then it's not ready to film and so I miss shots and we all know that even barely usable footage is still better than the shot you didn't get.  This is one of the reasons I sold my Sigma 18-35, it was just too heavy.

Yup, massively underrated, especially by keyboard warrior camera collectors.

Get out there and day in day out all season long, try shooting these jobs and folks will soon learn what works. And what doesn’t.

I was considering the Sigma 18-35 again for the FX30 as I had it as a workhorse adapted on an XT3 a few years back, but nah, I’ll just crank the ISO up one stop and go with something smaller & lighter!

Still a cracking lens after all these years but nah.

[kye]

Here's a video of a colourist grading some A7Rv footage - it looks like it held up pretty well including when he pulled a key on the skin at 12:45.  Other Sony cameras have been a mess when pulling keys, so this is seems like a good outcome.

 

[Kisaha]

I was using 3 cameras when I was doing weddings photography, 2 NX1 and an NX500 with a speciality (oddball lens) on it. All these cameras were on me at all times, but never both video AND photo. Still can't comprehend how you do it. I always have a partner/assistant with me, even for the easiest of jobs..

Sometimes we were 3-4 people for video and 2-3 for photography..

An 24-70 as a workhorse was the most used lens usually, 24mm is good for small group photos, and 70mm is an alright focal length for portraits. The oddball lens on the NX500 could be the amazing NX fisheye or the pancake 16mm..the workhorse lens was the 16-50mm (24-75mm equiv) and 2-2.8f. unique lens and always negated the need for the Sigma 18-35, as at those mm (at 32-33mm to be precise) the NX is 2f, with an incredible I.S, both wider and longer. With the other NX I was usually using the amazingly small 45mm 1.8f for more "artistic" portraits. This lens has a ton of character, especially for the silly price..

Just a different way of doing similar things, I guess!

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

All these cameras were on me at all times, but never both video AND photo. Still can't comprehend how you do it.

Practice practice practice and a lot of dead ends!

Year 1, 100% photo + 10% video

Year 2, 100% photo + 20% video

Year 5, 100% photo + 50% video

Year 10, 100% photo + 100% video

It’s been like learning to juggle. I started with just 2 balls, added another each year, dropped them more times than I’d care to remember but otherwise dedication.

Plus the tech these days is better than it was 10+ years ago.

I’m always amazed that MORE are NOT doing it, but as long as it is not the norm, good for me and my business!

[Beritar]

8 hours ago, Kisaha said:

I was using 3 cameras when I was doing weddings photography, 2 NX1 and an NX500 with a speciality (oddball lens) on it. All these cameras were on me at all times, but never both video AND photo. Still can't comprehend how you do it. I always have a partner/assistant with me, even for the easiest of jobs..

Sometimes we were 3-4 people for video and 2-3 for photography..

An 24-70 as a workhorse was the most used lens usually, 24mm is good for small group photos, and 70mm is an alright focal length for portraits. The oddball lens on the NX500 could be the amazing NX fisheye or the pancake 16mm..the workhorse lens was the 16-50mm (24-75mm equiv) and 2-2.8f. unique lens and always negated the need for the Sigma 18-35, as at those mm (at 32-33mm to be precise) the NX is 2f, with an incredible I.S, both wider and longer. With the other NX I was usually using the amazingly small 45mm 1.8f for more "artistic" portraits. This lens has a ton of character, especially for the silly price..

Just a different way of doing similar things, I guess!

I still use my NX1 with the 16-50mm S and 45mm f/1.8, the colors and character of the 45mm f/1.8 ... Oh my god.

[kye]

23 hours ago, MrSMW said:

It’s been like learning to juggle. I started with just 2 balls, added another each year, dropped them more times than I’d care to remember but otherwise dedication.

Plus the tech these days is better than it was 10+ years ago.

I’m always amazed that MORE are NOT doing it, but as long as it is not the norm, good for me and my business!

After my own experience learning video after being a stills shooter, and reading many threads on photography sites talking about learning video, I'm not surprised that there hasn't been a huge migration from stills to doing both.  ...and considering the level of skill and speed required at weddings, I would imagine that would make such a transition even more daunting for those contemplating such a thing!

TBH though, the biggest challenge that I saw online from stills photogs was that they simply weren't willing to try.  Even when someone who had developed some video skills gave simple advice about how to start, most wouldn't even do it, despite how simple the assignment was.  Combined with the mass layoffs of photogs from newspapers and magazines that was occurring at that time, I got the sense that most had just given up on trying to adapt and stay relevant.