Canon R6 Mark II Announced

[FHDcrew]

Slightly off-topic but for not terribly more one can purchase a used Canon 1Dx Mark III to get 5k internal RAW, a similar image to a Canon R3

 

[Ty Harper]

19 minutes ago, FHDcrew said:

but for not terribly more one can purchase a used Canon 1Dx Mark III to get 5k internal RAW, a similar image to a Canon R3

Agreed. Been eyeing some MKIIIs myself but just can't see myself going back to a 1DX body (still have a 1DC mind you) after buying an R5C: which gives you the option of building it up to 1DX size or down to a smaller R5 form factor.

[FHDcrew]

50 minutes ago, Ty Harper said:

Agreed. Been eyeing some MKIIIs myself but just can't see myself going back to a 1DX body (still have a 1DC mind you) after buying an R5C: which gives you the option of building it up to 1DX size or down to a smaller R5 form factor.

Valid.  But to counter your point, despite this being a large DSLR it is still going to be a compact, well-distributed package considering there is internal RAW.  Yes the R6 ii is smaller, but slap an Atomos Ninja V on there to record Prores RAW and you now have a large, heavy setup with awkward ergonomics and balance.  I guarantee the 1dx ii will be more enjoyable to use, as the RAW recording is internal, thus not requiring a large external recorder to be bolted to the top of the camera.

[Django]

Yeah but say goodbye to IBIS,  EVF, swivel screen, RF mount, DPAF2 etc.. One of the great benefits of RF mount is the variable-ND adapter when using EF glass. 1DX3 also has pretty bad rolling shutter. Great stills cam though.

[gt3rs]

I cannot come up with 1 single advantage of the 1Dx III vs. the R5 for video usage. And only 1 for photo: initial AF acquisition.

And the 1Dx III uses a completely different sensor that the R3 so it does not have the same image and quite bad RS and no AF in 5.5k 50/60p. 

I owned both for a while then sold the 1Dx III for adding a R5c.

 

[FHDcrew]

1 hour ago, gt3rs said:

I cannot come up with 1 single advantage of the 1Dx III vs. the R5 for video usage. And only 1 for photo: initial AF acquisition.

And the 1Dx III uses a completely different sensor that the R3 so it does not have the same image and quite bad RS and no AF in 5.5k 50/60p. 

I owned both for a while then sold the 1Dx III for adding a R5c.

 

Ok good point. I was not aware it used a different sensor, that definately changes my opinion then!

[Al Dolega]

R6II looks like a good candidate to replace my S1 next year, if an S2/S1ii isn't released or at least announced (with good autofocus).

Rolling shutter and DR performance seems only adequate, I would definitely miss the DR of the S1. Ideally I would like an intraframe codec, but I've been doing just fine with the S1's IPB so I guess I would be fine.

Not sure how the 4:2:2 codec would handle, I'm upgrading my system now but aren't most people still proxying/transcoding for their R5/R6 files? Not sure if optimized media in Resolve would be enough.

What's the AF performance like with the EF 70-200 adapted? I don't think I'd have the scratch for the RF 70-200, although its tiny retracted size is super sexy.

I wish the S1H/A7R5 combo screen was the new standard, I like the tilt screen on the S1 but the flip option would be nice to have too.

 

[herein2020]

16 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I agree...in principle, but I'm always being selfish, thinking of myself and my own needs and not other people 😜

I'm looking at building the stills side of my next system around the Tamron 35-150mm f2/2.8

 

Yes, Canon has nothing that can compare to that lens. I have a friend who shoots with Sony and she raves about that one lens. I definitely agree that a system needs to be as simple as possible and fit your workflow the best so that one lens could definitely decide your future.

I think Sony also still provides 4:2:0 10bit footage so that is a huge timesaver when it comes to editing the source footage if you do not have an M1 Mac. Editing the 60FPS files out of the R5, R6, and R7 is painful on a PC. My system is marginal with the 30FPS files, but I need proxies for 60FPS.

 

12 hours ago, Django said:

A step down from your 5DIV how? the only thing I can think of is the megapixel count (30 vs 20).

DXO ranks the R6 above the 5DIV in terms of DR and ISO noise performance. R6 does use the flagship 1DX3 sensor..

As for the R5 overheating, it has been substantially mitigated with v1.6 : 

https://downloads.canon.com/EOSR5_recordtime_7-21.pdf

With the high setting its basically a non-issue. So again a bit of a waste not to benefit from it for FF video. I also have battery grip, shoulder strap etc on my hybrids, that doesn't prevent me from shooting some quick handheld video bits during events thanks to IBIS. 4K120p would be even better handheld.

But ok you have it dedicated to photo duties and a C70 + R7 for video. That's a nice setup. 

 

Not everything comes down to specs, I am very picky with ergonomics when it is my photography camera vs video where it will be held completely differently with a cage and handles. Ergonomics was the reason I picked up a demo Sony camera in the store and put it down and have never considered Sony again.  Also, when a photography camera is my A camera it has to just "feel" right...another thing that no specs can tell you. 

Last but not least, I bought the R6 when I was looking for a hybrid camera; at the time I wasn't looking for a replacement photography camera. Due to the overheating it would not be able to replace my video setup and due to the resolution and way it felt to me when shooting photos with it, it would not be able to replace my 5DIV for reliability, build quality and just the way it felt in the hand.

Even the R5 after the overheating fiasco (still not 100% convinced yet with the latest FW, just because they lifted the timer doesn't mean the reliability won't decrease as it gets hotter), the build quality, the EVF delay, and the freezing just barely puts it in the marginal category for me as a worthy replacement to my 5DIV. 

[Django]

1 hour ago, herein2020 said:

Not everything comes down to specs, I am very picky with ergonomics when it is my photography camera vs video where it will be held completely differently with a cage and handles. Ergonomics was the reason I picked up a demo Sony camera in the store and put it down and have never considered Sony again.  Also, when a photography camera is my A camera it has to just "feel" right...another thing that no specs can tell you. 

Last but not least, I bought the R6 when I was looking for a hybrid camera; at the time I wasn't looking for a replacement photography camera. Due to the overheating it would not be able to replace my video setup and due to the resolution and way it felt to me when shooting photos with it, it would not be able to replace my 5DIV for reliability, build quality and just the way it felt in the hand.

Even the R5 after the overheating fiasco (still not 100% convinced yet with the latest FW, just because they lifted the timer doesn't mean the reliability won't decrease as it gets hotter), the build quality, the EVF delay, and the freezing just barely puts it in the marginal category for me as a worthy replacement to my 5DIV. 

Bro, I've been shooting photography since film days and Canon since 5D mk1.. which I still own and enjoy shooting with. You're preaching to the choir here. That said, I'mo not into romanticizing cameras, in the end they are tools. I fully respect your enticement towards the 5DIV and DSLRs generally speaking, but not upgrading your R5 to 1.6 and putting it down for video is.. bizarre. What EVF delay is there for video needs? 5DIV shoots video with a massive crop and horrible MJPEG codec. Its a terrible hybrid. Just trying to help you overcome the initial R5 cons for video. Its now a powerful hybrid..

[kye]

5 hours ago, herein2020 said:

Not everything comes down to specs,

+1.

I think that how the camera makes you feel when operating is very under-rated, and even more-so if you're also directing.  I've shot with cameras before that just make you feel like you're fighting it the whole time - the exact opposite headspace than you want to be in when doing something creative.

I know that I find the GH5 to be particularly pleasing to use, partly because it's a reliable and comfortable in the hand, but also because I know the images it captures are almost always really nice to edit / colour in post, to which I attribute the IBIS, high-bitrate 10-bit log, and my favourite lenses which are fast primes.

[Django]

IQ, IBIS, Bitrate, lenses have nothing to do with camera body ergonomics, reliability or performance.

@herein2020 Your main gripes with R5 seem to be overheating, freezing & EVF delay. The first two can be overcome by updating to your latest firmware. You should really do this ASAP if you're using the camera professionally. The EVF delay is a slightly more complicated subject. Are you experiencing blackout frames, insert frames and/or dropped frames? What burst mode are you shooting in? Electronic or mechanical shutter? Have tried HS/HS+ modes? High display mode should eliminate most issues and give you a smooth 120fps EVF. But lag is kind of inevitable, even the A1 has some. Its a little disorienting when you're used to an OVF (which by the way also has blackout when the mirror lifts but your eye doesn't see it as a lag, more like an eye blink). What is important is that the AF system engages at all times during burst and that's not always the case during black out time. This is where stacked sensors really improve performance and why all the sport/action MILCs (R3,A1,Z9) now use one. It pretty much than beats DSLRs in performance.

For really advanced hybrid photographers, stacked sensor mirrorless is definitely the way to go.

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, Django said:

(R3,A1,Z9)

...and the OM-1 😀

[herein2020]

3 hours ago, Django said:

IQ, IBIS, Bitrate, lenses have nothing to do with camera body ergonomics, reliability or performance.

@herein2020 Your main gripes with R5 seem to be overheating, freezing & EVF delay. The first two can be overcome by updating to your latest firmware. You should really do this ASAP if you're using the camera professionally. The EVF delay is a slightly more complicated subject. Are you experiencing blackout frames, insert frames and/or dropped frames? What burst mode are you shooting in? Electronic or mechanical shutter? Have tried HS/HS+ modes? High display mode should eliminate most issues and give you a smooth 120fps EVF. But lag is kind of inevitable, even the A1 has some. Its a little disorienting when you're used to an OVF (which by the way also has blackout when the mirror lifts but your eye doesn't see it as a lag, more like an eye blink). What is important is that the AF system engages at all times during burst and that's not always the case during black out time. This is where stacked sensors really improve performance and why all the sport/action MILCs (R3,A1,Z9) now use one. It pretty much than beats DSLRs in performance.

For really advanced hybrid photographers, stacked sensor mirrorless is definitely the way to go.

I updated the FW to 1.6 as soon as it came out, it froze 2 days later on a photo shoot...shutter button stopped working until I restarted it; back screen and everything else kept working, just shutter button wouldn't do anything when I pressed it....not exactly confidence inspiring.

Yes the EVF delay for photos is in all mirrorless cameras but it seemed excessive to me so I opened a ticket with Canon and paid $150 to ship it to them and they returned it saying nothing was wrong. The R7 has the same delay, if a person blinks while taking their picture, in the EVF their eyes are still open, when reviewing the image their eyes are closed, runway shows are the worst for me, the front foot is on the ground in the EVF, in the captured image they have already picked it back up, little things like that are decreasing my keeper count.....definitely making me miss my OVF especially since I typically have a flash setup so I can't just spray and pray; and yes I have tried the higher FPS mode for the EVF.

I had a ballerina jumping and doing twirls for a photo shoot....that was the worst, I was ready to throw the camera out of the window, there was literally no way to do anything except just hope for a few keeper shots; I had multiple flashes setup so again...no spray and pray option due to flash recycle times.

The R7 is quirky too....sometimes the hotshoe doesn't trigger the flash, I know it is not the flash because it is the same flash I have had for years. Also, pressing the record button while it is recording doesn't always stop the recording, requiring multiple presses. After stopping the recording there's a delay of approximately 3-5s where you can't record again as if the buffer is clearing out or something like that; the S5 did not do that.

I really think Canon's cameras have become so complicated that they have all the sophistication of modern computers along with all of their intermittent issues. 

So yes, when I am on a photoshoot I just don't trust the R5 it is that simple; I don't want the photo side of it to lock up or have an issue because I was off shooting some b-roll video since I value reliability above all else.  I got used to a dedicated photo camera with the 5DIV's rock solid reliability (its video was unusable), so after those issues early on I will treat the R5 the same way. Ironically, I trust the R7 more as a hybrid than the R5.

But back to the R6II 🤣 I noticed another feature they brought to the R6II that the S5 had in 2020.....the big red recording box. This is a great feature to verify that it is recording (and another feature that could be brought to the other cameras via a FW update).  I couldn't tell from the CVP video if the box stays on or just shows when it starts recording.

 

18 hours ago, Al Dolega said:

Not sure how the 4:2:2 codec would handle, I'm upgrading my system now but aren't most people still proxying/transcoding for their R5/R6 files? Not sure if optimized media in Resolve would be enough.

I absolutely hate proxy media because of how much time it takes and because of my particular workflow (I only import the exact clips that I need for the project, so I would need to create proxy media each time mid project). Instead, what I do is scrub through and find the piece of the clip I want, then cut it up and add it to the timeline then use optimized media since it is much faster because it is creating a proxy of just that part of the clip. 

It still stutters during the initial review process; mainly on 60FPS media. I am still waiting to see if the NVIDIA 4000 series video cards can accelerate 10 bit 4:2:2 media, for some reason that information is impossible to find and I search about once a week or so. I suppose I could email NVIDIA and ask them. It is very disappointing that in 2022 PC users still have no video card options for 4:2:2.

18 hours ago, Al Dolega said:

What's the AF performance like with the EF 70-200 adapted? I don't think I'd have the scratch for the RF 70-200, although its tiny retracted size is super sexy.

What you will discover with the EF 70-200 adapted is the same thing that I discovered; AF is the least of your problems. The real problem is the weight of the lens making your camera feel like it is going to tear itself apart. With the EF 70-200 lens on the R5 plus the adapter the whole body was flexing, the adapter and the lens mount was making weird noises, and it really felt like the whole thing was going to fall apart.....vs the 5DIV where the two fit together like a glove.

The flexing and sounds were so bad I ended up getting the RF 70-200 since it is my most used portrait lens; actually, it is my most used photography lens of all time due to runway shows. So yes.....YT reviewers really gloss over a lot and you don't learn details like those until you actually try to use it. I think it is both the length and weight that make the combo so bad, I assume there are RF lenses just as heavy but not as long.

[Ty Harper]

19 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

What you will discover with the EF 70-200 adapted is the same thing that I discovered; AF is the least of your problems. The real problem is the weight of the lens making your camera feel like it is going to tear itself apart. With the EF 70-200 lens on the R5 plus the adapter the whole body was flexing, the adapter and the lens mount was making weird noises, and it really felt like the whole thing was going to fall apart.

Oh wow, actually have not used my 70-200mm on the R5C yet - but now I am pretty concerned. So just to clarify, are you experiencing those issues even when using the tripod collar?

[Attila Bakos]

20 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

It is very disappointing that in 2022 PC users still have no video card options for 4:2:2.

That's true, however Intel QuickSync supports hw encoding/decoding of 4:2:2 HEVC since Gen10. Better than nothing 🙂

[Ty Harper]

If what @herein2020 is saying about bigger/longer telephoto EF lenses is true - it would be the first legit reason I'd consider switching to RF lenses (at least when it comes to the 70-200mm) altho that would be way down the road bcuz I simply do not have that kind of coin to spend, lol!

[herein2020]

17 minutes ago, Ty Harper said:

Oh wow, actually have not used my 70-200mm on the R5C yet - but now I am pretty concerned. So just to clarify, are you experiencing those issues even when using the tripod collar?

I was using it for photography and no tripod so it had to hang down by my side when not in use and grabbing the camera body to bring it up to my eye before I had my second hand on the lens barrel is where the flexing and sounds were occurring. I don't use that setup on a tripod at all so it may be better in a video setting, but for photography with it swinging around at my side I was concerned for the adapter and lens mount.

15 minutes ago, Attila Bakos said:

That's true, however Intel QuickSync supports hw encoding/decoding of 4:2:2 HEVC since Gen10. Better than nothing 🙂

Yes but to get that you need to buy a whole new PC, not an option to me and if you study Puget Sound's results, QS is still only marginal; meaning if you add DR color grades, and throw in a little Fusion and you are back to where you started; definitely not M1 Mac competition. There's just no way I am buying a whole new PC when all I need is a video card. 

[herein2020]

2 minutes ago, Ty Harper said:

If what @herein2020 is saying about bigger/longer telephoto EF lenses is true - it would be the first legit reason I'd consider switching to RF lenses (at least when it comes to the 70-200mm) altho that would be way down the road bcuz I simply do not have that kind of coin to spend, lol!

Trust me I did not want to spend one penny on RF lenses but I just couldn't take the whole flexing and instability. I must grudgingly admit though the RF 70-200 is incredibly sharper than the EF version and it takes a lot to impress me. I am the last one to pixel peep but the difference was immediately noticeable to me.

[Django]

53 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

I updated the FW to 1.6 as soon as it came out, it froze 2 days later on a photo shoot...shutter button stopped working until I restarted it; back screen and everything else kept working, just shutter button wouldn't do anything when I pressed it....not exactly confidence inspiring.

Yes the EVF delay for photos is in all mirrorless cameras but it seemed excessive to me so I opened a ticket with Canon and paid $150 to ship it to them and they returned it saying nothing was wrong. The R7 has the same delay, if a person blinks while taking their picture, in the EVF their eyes are still open, when reviewing the image their eyes are closed, runway shows are the worst for me, the front foot is on the ground in the EVF, in the captured image they have already picked it back up, little things like that are decreasing my keeper count.....definitely making me miss my OVF especially since I typically have a flash setup so I can't just spray and pray; and yes I have tried the higher FPS mode for the EVF.

I had a ballerina jumping and doing twirls for a photo shoot....that was the worst, I was ready to throw the camera out of the window, there was literally no way to do anything except just hope for a few keeper shots; I had multiple flashes setup so again...no spray and pray option due to flash recycle times.

The R7 is quirky too....sometimes the hotshoe doesn't trigger the flash, I know it is not the flash because it is the same flash I have had for years. Also, pressing the record button while it is recording doesn't always stop the recording, requiring multiple presses. After stopping the recording there's a delay of approximately 3-5s where you can't record again as if the buffer is clearing out or something like that; the S5 did not do that.

I really think Canon's cameras have become so complicated that they have all the sophistication of modern computers along with all of their intermittent issues. 

So yes, when I am on a photoshoot I just don't trust the R5 it is that simple; I don't want the photo side of it to lock up or have an issue because I was off shooting some b-roll video since I value reliability above all else.  I got used to a dedicated photo camera with the 5DIV's rock solid reliability (its video was unusable), so after those issues early on I will treat the R5 the same way. Ironically, I trust the R7 more as a hybrid than the R5.

Ok I totally get your perspective. I had a very difficult time at first transitioning from my trusty 5D3 to EOS R. Everything felt weird, sluggish, wrong. But I did end up adapting to a point where going back to DSLR feels super archaic, even though I still find nothing beats AF speed acquisition on crosspoints using EF glass.

EVF lag is a real thing and demands even further adaptation although it sounds like you are limited by your flash recycle time not necessarily the cameras fault?

As for the R5 freezing etc it kinda sounds like you got a lemon. I dunno since I've got an R6 and never experienced any type of freeze or shutter issue. Did they really cram too much into R5 to the point where it bugs out? If so, maybe the R5C is better at handling things with a totally separate OS that reboots in stills/video modes..?

It sounds frustrating but truth is other brands aren't immune to any of this either. I left Nikon after my D750 took months to repair because of a faulty part requiring a massive recall that took ages to arrive from China to Nikon EU service centre in Netherlands. Horrible customer service too compared to Canon who are based right outside of Paris. These are the type of things that make us pros stick or leave a brand. 

I've had several Sony Alphas ruined straight to the garbage dump due to their horrible weather sealing (just only recently improved).

But getting back to Canon, I originally joined them because of their reputation and hardware reliability. Was the only Japanese company with still Made in Japan products too (well there was Fuji too but that changed). But yeah I agree that the Canon R series and RF lenses don't have at all that same premium feel of the DSLRs/EF lenses. Maybe R3, I haven't tested it yet. But that's a $6K camera.  

[Attila Bakos]

4 hours ago, herein2020 said:

Yes but to get that you need to buy a whole new PC, not an option to me and if you study Puget Sound's results, QS is still only marginal; meaning if you add DR color grades, and throw in a little Fusion and you are back to where you started; definitely not M1 Mac competition. There's just no way I am buying a whole new PC when all I need is a video card. 

But what if you have an Intel processor with 4:2:2 decoding support and a dedicated GPU? I was under the impression that they can work together.