Canon R6 Mark II Announced

[kye]

On 11/10/2022 at 7:58 AM, herein2020 said:

I know a lot of buyers of the EOS R really complained about the lag. They had one on display in a store once and I picked it up and just panned from side to side while looking through the viewfinder; the lag was so bad it was the final nail in the coffin for the EOS R for me. I was truly in disbelief that anyone was willing to put up with it.

I think at the end of the day I am probably the only one that notices the shots I missed or didn't get perfect while knowing the lag caused it. The only time when the client noticed as well was the ballerina shoot. She was giving me looks that made it clear she didn't know why I wasn't nailing her leg and arm placement mid leap. 

Honestly, I am probably just making it more than it is.  If I did not rely on flash so heavily or shoot so many specific situations that require both flash lighting as well as precision then the lag wouldn't bother me as much. With sports you can just hold down the shutter so mirrorless is definitely capable of capturing peak action even with the lag. At events people are used to redos over someone blinking so that's not a big deal either.

For 99% of my work, only I will know when I missed the exact moment I wanted due to the EVF lag so I can live with that.

I think it's highly dependent on the situation.

This article details the process to get the below shot - apparently these birds dive at around 25mph and even when using 10fps burst mode on a D4 most frames didn't even include the bird at all so it took about 720,000 photos to get a perfect one:

In terms of if it matters or not, I find that in my own personal work my experience of shooting is highly dependent on if I feel that I'm getting footage I like.  That might be different if I was merely trying to please a client in order to put food on the table and new lenses in the collection, but who knows - we're all different and keeping up morale and creativity is a personal thing.

[gt3rs]

Really not sure why you cannot do it with an EVF..... but people are different so fair enough. Then you should buy a used 1Dx III until you find one. 

I'm still a bit puzzled as is mentioned the strobe example, where you are in single shoot mode so in the right settings R3 and R5 both runs at 120 fps refresh, now the R3 can maintain this even at 30 fps making is blackout free but the lag is the same so in a single shoot there are no difference.
Btw there is another lag that is a shutter lag that is a different story, and this is 83ms in machinal and 50ms in ES for the R5, 5IV is 58ms (plus 86ms blackout) and R3 is 20ms in ES.

Some more examples where timing is key with strobes but if you do it a lot you will notice as your brain will start to anticipate the "lag"

[herein2020]

5 hours ago, kye said:

I think it's highly dependent on the situation.

This article details the process to get the below shot - apparently these birds dive at around 25mph and even when using 10fps burst mode on a D4 most frames didn't even include the bird at all so it took about 720,000 photos to get a perfect one:

In terms of if it matters or not, I find that in my own personal work my experience of shooting is highly dependent on if I feel that I'm getting footage I like.  That might be different if I was merely trying to please a client in order to put food on the table and new lenses in the collection, but who knows - we're all different and keeping up morale and creativity is a personal thing.

 

That's an incredible shot and even more interesting backstory. 4200hrs and 720K photos.  I am definitely not shooting anything that requires that kind of dedication or precision.  For me its really just a matter of being my own worst critic, even though it is for a client shoot, I still know when I am not getting the shots I was getting with an OVF.

4 hours ago, gt3rs said:

Really not sure why you cannot do it with an EVF..... but people are different so fair enough. Then you should buy a used 1Dx III until you find one. 

I'm still a bit puzzled as is mentioned the strobe example, where you are in single shoot mode so in the right settings R3 and R5 both runs at 120 fps refresh, now the R3 can maintain this even at 30 fps making is blackout free but the lag is the same so in a single shoot there are no difference.
Btw there is another lag that is a shutter lag that is a different story, and this is 83ms in machinal and 50ms in ES for the R5, 5IV is 58ms (plus 86ms blackout) and R3 is 20ms in ES.

Some more examples where timing is key with strobes but if you do it a lot you will notice as your brain will start to anticipate the "lag"

Now these are definitely great examples of where timing was key and where you couldn't use burst mode to create the shot due to the flash recycle limitations.  Maybe it is like you and @kye are saying; I only have a few thousand images with the R5 so far and most of them don't require precision or timing so it might just be a matter of getting used to it. 

Shutter lag didn't even cross my mind, it could be a combination of EVF and shutter lag for my R5. Or it is still possible my R5 simply has more lag than it is supposed to; my brief R7 tests show a big improvement. CPS didn't seem to have an official test for this, in the ticket notes all they said was that they compared it to another R5.....no help at all if the second R5 they compared it to had the same problem.

I definitely don't need a 1DXIII for the things I shoot, my 5DIV was more than adequate for everything I threw at it.

[gt3rs]

27 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

 

 

Shutter lag didn't even cross my mind, it could be a combination of EVF and shutter lag for my R5. Or it is still possible my R5 simply has more lag than it is supposed to; my brief R7 tests show a big improvement. CPS didn't seem to have an official test for this, in the ticket notes all they said was that they compared it to another R5.....no help at all if the second R5 they compared it to had the same problem.

I definitely don't need a 1DXIII for the things I shoot, my 5DIV was more than adequate for everything I threw at it.

Mirrorless will always have some latency as the sensor needs to be read so some ms goes there then image need to be processed, then displayed compared to a glass only that is the OVF.

Now is the R5 worst than others? There is a video on YouTube that compares the latency of Sony A1 vs R5 and both have around of 250ms total latency with the R5 20ms more mostly due to the shutter lag imo (be aware that there is the human latency too in that test). Now compared to the only mechanical one of the 5D IV that is 83ms + human latency you will notice but both would need some anticipation anyway. 

My point is that as being constant this latency your brain will get used to it and notice less or none. In addition, with mirrorless, other than strobe situation, you can take 20, 30 or even 40 fps now getting much more chances to get the perfect timing. 

Drones with digital transmission have the same issue and yet people can maneuver them in incredibly challenging situation mostly due to getting used and anticipate.

Assuming that your R5 was configured correctly you will get very similar latency with R3, A1 or R7.

[Django]

This guy has no evf lag issue for BIF but says if the battery is under 50%, or you're adapting older lenses etc the EVF can act funky: https://youtu.be/0cQHLTbIso0

This other guy in the comments shows clear lag and frame drops when the shutter is pressed: 

I'm in the camp that there is a lot of lag. I'm having troubles tracking sporting, specifically kiteboarding, which is a lot like birds in flight. I've posted my video test of the what the viewfinder sees ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtFbWS1vkIc -not the best test but it sure seems to show something different from your video) and it's almost as if you have a different camera than I do. I've shot for years on a 5D mkIV, a 7d Mk1, a 7d MkII and never had so much trouble trying to track a kiteboarder. I often loose the person out off the frame with the R5, where I rarely did before. Ron, Kudos to you for being able to do it.

[herein2020]

@gt3rs @Django @kye I am cautiously optimistic that I might have found a fix for my problem.  Version 1.5 of the FW added a new option: "Suppress lower frame rate" to the display performance menu. This Reddit thread was the first time I had seen that mentioned. I dug through all of the menus when I first set up the camera but did not know they had added this option with FW 1.5. Of course, this thread says it affects AF so I guess I will need to wait and see which is worse.

When I am using flashes for runway shows and studio work it is low light until the flashes go off. It is possible that the issue described in the referenced Reddit thread was my problem. The lag was so significant that I just didn't see how I would be able to estimate movement that far in advance, but now it makes sense why it is affecting me so much; the times I need the most precision are with flashes and specifically in lowlight which happens to be the exact same time the R5's EVF is performing the worst. I checked the R7 and it has this option even with its current FW 1.0. The R6 probably also has this option and the R6II will probably ship with this on day one like the R7 did. 

This option seems to come with a lot of caveats as per Canon's website. I can definitely now say without a doubt that my 5DIV was better in this situation than the R5 has been so far. So basically, until you combine low light (EVF slows down), with flashes (no burst mode options due to flash recycle speeds), with a need for precision (fashion shows, ballerina), you won't see this issue. Ironically that's exactly the scenario I shoot quite often.

 

[kye]

4 hours ago, herein2020 said:

@gt3rs @Django @kye I am cautiously optimistic that I might have found a fix for my problem.  Version 1.5 of the FW added a new option: "Suppress lower frame rate" to the display performance menu. This Reddit thread was the first time I had seen that mentioned. I dug through all of the menus when I first set up the camera but did not know they had added this option with FW 1.5. Of course, this thread says it affects AF so I guess I will need to wait and see which is worse.

When I am using flashes for runway shows and studio work it is low light until the flashes go off. It is possible that the issue described in the referenced Reddit thread was my problem. The lag was so significant that I just didn't see how I would be able to estimate movement that far in advance, but now it makes sense why it is affecting me so much; the times I need the most precision are with flashes and specifically in lowlight which happens to be the exact same time the R5's EVF is performing the worst. I checked the R7 and it has this option even with its current FW 1.0. The R6 probably also has this option and the R6II will probably ship with this on day one like the R7 did. 

This option seems to come with a lot of caveats as per Canon's website. I can definitely now say without a doubt that my 5DIV was better in this situation than the R5 has been so far. So basically, until you combine low light (EVF slows down), with flashes (no burst mode options due to flash recycle speeds), with a need for precision (fashion shows, ballerina), you won't see this issue. Ironically that's exactly the scenario I shoot quite often.

 

Good to hear you're learning more about the issue and might have found a fix.

One of the things that I think really dominates our discussions and how we use cameras and how the manufacturers design and build their products is that combinations of features really matter and everyone is different and the manufacturers are pushing the tech on many fronts at once and need to make decisions on what they sacrifice and what they don't.
So one manufacturer might try to offer the highest resolution and frame rates but sacrifice bit-depth to do it, and another would keep the bit-depth and limit something else instead.  Manufacturers try to give us lots of options (especially regarding resolution / frame rate / bit-depth) but there are other things in there that they're not giving us the options to choose, like which modes (if any) give availability of things like colour profiles, exposure guides, sharpening and image processing, etc.  These options are essentially hidden from the user by most manufacturers.  Of course, if they gave access to all the functions then not only would the firmware be incredibly difficult to program, but using it would be like trying to fly the space shuttle!

The other thing that dominates many discussions is that people don't understand that other people shoot in different situations for different style projects and with different aesthetic preferences, so rather than just acknowledging that we're all different there are these "well, you should just be more like me..." style comments which don't do much except show that the poster doesn't really understand life, business, people, or many other things 🙂 

[herein2020]

After watching this video I am still thoroughly unconvinced that Canon has solved their overheating problem with the R6II. Yes it did better than the R6 but that's not saying much. The R6II overheated at 4K60FPS in 40min with ambient temps at only 70F. 

For the brief time I owned the R6 (3 days), it was shutting off around the 9min mark while just shooting a few video clips, scrolling through the menus, and taking a few pictures; and that wasn't even in direct sunlight or one of the hotter days here.

I live in one of the hottest most humid states in the USA, no way would it last 40min at 98F and 100% humidity. I have managed to get an overheat warning with a C200 and the fan set on high while filming, so heat management is probably more important to me than to people who live in a colder climate.

The R7 on the other hand has never gone past 3bars for me even when shooting in 105F degree temps with a mixture of 4K Fine, 4K 60FPS, and some photos/menu settings thrown in.  The C70 also has never given me an overheating warning.  So at the end of the day the R6II does have better specs in every area than the R7, but for where I live and the type of work I do, I will take a crop and line skipping any day vs a camera that overheats. I think the smaller sensor of the C70 and R7 really pay off when it comes to heat management.

Interestingly enough, I have a diehard Sony shooter friend who lives nearby and she just got the A7IV and she said it overheated in the middle of a wedding within a month of her owning it; so its definitely not just Canon with this problem. BTW, that wasn't even the hottest month here, no idea what she is going to do for next summer.

 

 

 

[Emanuel]

Yup, reason why I cannot be so enthusiastic other than with the only single Canon hybrid to actually impress me: R5C ; )

The rumoured R5II to be announced soon according to the usual suspects doesn't convince me either:

The same bet for RX3/RX30 series with the internal fan design.

Exactly because of the introduction of decent overheating management or it's the chaos then.

[herein2020]

7 hours ago, Emanuel said:

Yup, reason why I cannot be so enthusiastic other than with the only single Canon hybrid to actually impress me: R5C ; )

The rumoured R5II to be announced soon according to the usual suspects doesn't convince me either:

The same bet for RX3/RX30 series with the internal fan design.

Exactly because of the introduction of decent overheating management or it's the chaos then.

The R5C had way too many downsides for me (bulky, terrible battery life, slow photo/video switching, fan that can pull in dust, no IBIS, same DR as R5, etc).

The R7 so far is the only Canon hybrid to impress me. It is the closest thing to my Panasonic S5 that I've owned since the S5 except it adds great AF and effortless CLOG3 matching with the C70. On paper it really doesn't seem that impressive but it is one of the ones that far exceed its paper specs when you start using it in the real world. 

[Emanuel]

1 hour ago, herein2020 said:

The R5C had way too many downsides for me (bulky, terrible battery life, slow photo/video switching, fan that can pull in dust, no IBIS, same DR as R5, etc).

The R7 so far is the only Canon hybrid to impress me. It is the closest thing to my Panasonic S5 that I've owned since the S5 except it adds great AF and effortless CLOG3 matching with the C70. On paper it really doesn't seem that impressive but it is one of the ones that far exceed its paper specs when you start using it in the real world. 

It's exactly my feeling on R5C : ) You need inexpensive external power to 8K60p anyway, no other hybrid camera will offer the same (you wrote "slow photo/video switching"?), go figure on this price range, DR @ R5 level fits the bill and IBIS is NOT actually the wishful thinking people dream all about.

I'd rather have a builky circa 150 grams more in hands than to a fresh 2nd unit to replace my limited hot brick no dust sucker fan will carry me closer... Something I like though, brings the wallet three times lighter, impossible to complain on that one ;- )

[Al Dolega]

It's my understanding that the S1H/R5C/FX3 fans aren't blowing into the interior of the camera bodies, directly onto the PCB: basically they blow across the outside of the rear wall of the camera body, which is mostly a heatsink, with its interior face connected to the PCB. So I don't see how they could introduce dust problems to those cameras, as the interior is still sealed (outside of the lens mount of course).

[ntblowz]

 

Who would have thought R7 actually have more DR than R6 II on video mode?

The R5 is definitely the best investment I've done so far, 4K50P runs all day without overheating after the last update, and the few cam that does hdmi + internal recording + internal monitor display on.

[ntblowz]

15 hours ago, Emanuel said:

Yup, reason why I cannot be so enthusiastic other than with the only single Canon hybrid to actually impress me: R5C ; )

 

I am actually not that enthusiastic on R5C after using it 6 months later... the C70 got a lot more use nowadays, and sometimes if we are out shooting remotely R5 get picked over R5c because of battery and weather sealing against all weather and condition.  We got a tiny sand stuck on the on switch of C70 which we have to send in to fix when we did a shoot on the dune, the R5 have no problem whatsoever.

So R5C is mostly a tripod camera with usb power adapter connect to the main for us nowadays beside acting as still cam.  My friend also use R5C as tripod camera with v mount battery while he roam around on his C70 too.

[herein2020]

12 hours ago, Emanuel said:

It's exactly my feeling on R5C : ) You need inexpensive external power to 8K60p anyway, no other hybrid camera will offer the same (you wrote "slow photo/video switching"?), go figure on this price range, DR @ R5 level fits the bill and IBIS is NOT actually the wishful thinking people dream all about.

I'd rather have a builky circa 150 grams more in hands than to a fresh 2nd unit to replace my limited hot brick no dust sucker fan will carry me closer... Something I like though, brings the wallet three times lighter, impossible to complain on that one ;- )

The R5C has to reboot to go from photo mode to video mode, the whole process takes about 8-10s. It doesn't sound like a big deal, and I didn't think it was when I read about it, but now that I am shooting with the R7 for both photo and video at events its a bigger deal than I thought. Its hard enough getting people to stand still or redo a pose long enough to get their pics taken, let alone waiting for a camera to reboot to start filming video or vice versa. 

11 hours ago, Al Dolega said:

It's my understanding that the S1H/R5C/FX3 fans aren't blowing into the interior of the camera bodies, directly onto the PCB: basically they blow across the outside of the rear wall of the camera body, which is mostly a heatsink, with its interior face connected to the PCB. So I don't see how they could introduce dust problems to those cameras, as the interior is still sealed (outside of the lens mount of course).

Try shooting with a camera with a fan on a windy day on a sandy beach a few times and you will quickly find out exactly why those fans are a problem. The dust and sand might not get onto the actual sensor but they certainly aren't weather sealed and fans get louder as they get dirtier which is clearly audible when recording audio. If enough sand gets in there you need to send it in to get professionally cleaned or even to get the fan replaced.

There is no way I would shoot with my C70 on the beach, TBH I don't like shooting with any camera on the beach due to the sand.

6 hours ago, ntblowz said:

I am actually not that enthusiastic on R5C after using it 6 months later... the C70 got a lot more use nowadays, and sometimes if we are out shooting remotely R5 get picked over R5c because of battery and weather sealing against all weather and condition.  We got a tiny sand stuck on the on switch of C70 which we have to send in to fix when we did a shoot on the dune, the R5 have no problem whatsoever.

So R5C is mostly a tripod camera with usb power adapter connect to the main for us nowadays beside acting as still cam.  My friend also use R5C as tripod camera with v mount battery while he roam around on his C70 too.

I think your post is the first time I've seen any feedback on this forum from someone who actually owns one. Canon definitely built a monstrocity with the R5C, I wonder how well they are selling.

[gt3rs]

7 hours ago, ntblowz said:

I am actually not that enthusiastic on R5C after using it 6 months later... the C70 got a lot more use nowadays, and sometimes if we are out shooting remotely R5 get picked over R5c because of battery and weather sealing against all weather and condition.  We got a tiny sand stuck on the on switch of C70 which we have to send in to fix when we did a shoot on the dune, the R5 have no problem whatsoever.

So R5C is mostly a tripod camera with usb power adapter connect to the main for us nowadays beside acting as still cam.  My friend also use R5C as tripod camera with v mount battery while he roam around on his C70 too.

R5 and R5c have exactly the same weather sealing and same rating.

[Emanuel]

1 hour ago, herein2020 said:

The R5C has to reboot to go from photo mode to video mode, the whole process takes about 8-10s. It doesn't sound like a big deal, and I didn't think it was when I read about it, but now that I am shooting with the R7 for both photo and video at events its a bigger deal than I thought. Its hard enough getting people to stand still or redo a pose long enough to get their pics taken, let alone waiting for a camera to reboot to start filming video or vice versa. 

Try shooting with a camera with a fan on a windy day on a sandy beach a few times and you will quickly find out exactly why those fans are a problem. The dust and sand might not get onto the actual sensor but they certainly aren't weather sealed and fans get louder as they get dirtier which is clearly audible when recording audio. If enough sand gets in there you need to send it in to get professionally cleaned or even to get the fan replaced.

There is no way I would shoot with my C70 on the beach, TBH I don't like shooting with any camera on the beach due to the sand.

I sincerely think and stand what fairly bothers you is prone very likely to be indifferent to many others. Really : )

Aside as you've just said, no camera is even a piece of cake when sand lies nearby beyond the fact you can always diminish the risk adding your rig. No other capture device will peacefully rescue from. Let alone what @gt3rs has pointed out ; )

 

8 hours ago, ntblowz said:

I am actually not that enthusiastic on R5C after using it 6 months later... the C70 got a lot more use nowadays, and sometimes if we are out shooting remotely R5 get picked over R5c because of battery and weather sealing against all weather and condition.  We got a tiny sand stuck on the on switch of C70 which we have to send in to fix when we did a shoot on the dune, the R5 have no problem whatsoever.

So R5C is mostly a tripod camera with usb power adapter connect to the main for us nowadays beside acting as still cam.  My friend also use R5C as tripod camera with v mount battery while he roam around on his C70 too.

Does R5C become a tripod camera because its external power add-on you can always replace it under 8K50p/60p?

Without mention the weak battery life you need to learn to live with (as many other stuff on shooting) which is more easy to overcome than the lack of features you won't find anywhere else.

I plainly didn't understand your comment to be honest in any way other than as a simple manifestation of your taste you and a few others are perfectly entitled to tell us but far to be science, that's my feeling :- )

 

[Emanuel]

1 hour ago, herein2020 said:

I think your post is the first time I've seen any feedback on this forum from someone who actually owns one. Canon definitely built a monstrocity with the R5C, I wonder how well they are selling.

Haven't you actually owned or used one too after all ?!

 

Yet as disclaimer to my precedent comment above-posted, don't take me by mistake because I always love the existence of contradictory, so active criticism is invariably welcome and can only be pointedly incentivated but no less to balance the point of view or we end unfairly biased at the wrong side of the road : )

 

Let me tell you what I'd tend to believe without it... R7 and their sisters are all mirrorless cameras while R5C is already a married woman when AFAIK that's pretty inaccurate :- )

[ntblowz]

1 hour ago, gt3rs said:

R5 and R5c have exactly the same weather sealing and same rating.

Well the weakest part of the R5C is the fan, any particles can come through the vent, so the fan can be stuck with sand particles which can make it go screaming or grinding noise

[ntblowz]

Did a shoot with my friend today.. yeah the R5C is perm fixed to the tripod lol.

Originally he was thinking of using R5C for mobile and C70 on tripod, but the usability of C70 is just make it much better overall.  I had the same feeling too.

I guess spec on paper is one thing and overall user experience is another, if you use camera everyday then usability wins hands down as you will want to use the camera that in sync with you than try to fight you each time.