Atomos has developed an 8K sensor - big deal or not?

[kye]

The press release doesn't say a whole lot: https://company-announcements.afr.com/asx/ams/0f93042b-44f6-11ed-810a-2616002949eb.pdf

Atomos states that:

• "it has completed development of a world class 8K video sensor to allow video cameras to record in 8K ultra high resolution"
• they "acquired the intellectual property rights and technical team from broadcast equipment firm, Grass Valley five years ago to develop a leading-edge 8K video sensor"
• and, they are "actively exploring opportunities for commercialisation and is in discussion with several camera makers who are showing great interest"

Does anyone know anything about this?  @androidlad perhaps?

Could this mean that cameras without the Sony sensor look might be forthcoming?

Could Atomos be moving into the camera industry?  Their external recorders are what, 70% of a camera already - just lacking a sensor and some mics and chips to connect everything up?

[IronFilm]

Hmmm... why does this news sound familiar? 🤔 😉

 

 https://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/66545-is-atomos-going-to-follow-in-blackmagics-footsteps-and-create-a-cinema-camera-as-well-they-just-announced-an-8k-sensor/ 

 

[kye]

5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Hmmm... why does this news sound familiar? 🤔 😉

 

 https://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/66545-is-atomos-going-to-follow-in-blackmagics-footsteps-and-create-a-cinema-camera-as-well-they-just-announced-an-8k-sensor/ 

 

My bad!  

I didn't see the thread when you posted it.

Nothing to see here, please move along....

[androidlad]

https://www.dpreview.com/news/6357713219/atomos-ceo-reveals-more-details-of-the-company-s-full-frame-8k-global-shutter-image-sensor

Quote

According to the interview, the sensor, deemed ‘Sapphire F8,’ offers DCI 8K (8192 x 4320px) global shutter recording at up to 60fps. Drop that down to 4K and you’ll get 240fps and at 1080, you’ll get 360fps. Elbourne states in the interview that the Sapphire F8 will offer up to 15 stops of dynamic range with 12-bit capture across all capture modes.

 

[kye]

32 minutes ago, androidlad said:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/6357713219/atomos-ceo-reveals-more-details-of-the-company-s-full-frame-8k-global-shutter-image-sensor

 

Wow, that's a pretty impressive set of specs, and especially the low power consumption which minimises heat and power draw.  The fact that lower resolutions keep scaling up the frame rate is welcome too.

With Canon/Sony/BM/etc being more aggressive with their ecosystems, hopefully one of the smaller manufacturers who don't make their own sensors will decide to ditch Sony sensors and build something on this one.  Then again, the FP sensor is made by Sony (I believe) and it looks fantastic, so maybe it's the sensor model itself or the implementation?

[seanzzxx]

If this is true that’s a RED competitor, I wonder if this will ever see the light of day.

[Django]

8k global shutter sounds pretty crazy. I really don't understand why RS is still an issue on so many cameras..

[Andrew Reid]

Global shutter has been around on a few cameras already like the Blackmagic Production Camera 4K, which people complain about because it can't do ISO 800, and Sony F55 which also took a low light hit. There is a reason why the Alexa isn't global shutter. Because a fast rolling shutter is fine.

Atomos have to compete with Sony if they want to enter the sensor game.

I say good luck to them but get your company ethics sorted first, bye.

[Django]

Alexa is the gold standard for non global shutter performance.. it has something like 5ms. 

I'm talking hybrids with +20ms. Its becoming a concern especially when mechanical shutters are starting to disappear..

[androidlad]

6 minutes ago, Django said:

Alexa is the gold standard for non global shutter performance.. it has something like 5ms. 

I'm talking hybrids with +20ms. Its becoming a concern especially when mechanical shutters are starting to disappear..

Alexa is no longer the gold standard for non global shutter performance.

It's Sony VENICE 2, it has 3ms rolling shutter.

The latest Alexa 35 is 8ms, Alexa Classic and LF both ~7ms, Alexa 65 ~16ms.

[Django]

Cool, I stand corrected.. point still remains as Sonys latest cine cam, FX30, sits at +20ms. Let’s get those stacked sensors out on every cam.

[TomTheDP]

Honestly 12 bit RAW isn't a RED or ARRI competitor. To me that is the difference between a lot of lower end cameras compared to Venice, ARRI or RED.

RED and Venice are doing 16 bit and the ARRI is 14 bit readout into a 12 bit log Prores or RAW. These other cameras are doing a 12 bit readout into 12 bit linear RAW. It isn't the same. Maybe I am being too spec obsessive though. If the image looks good you can't argue with it. 

[IronFilm]

3 hours ago, Django said:

Cool, I stand corrected.. point still remains as Sonys latest cine cam, FX30, sits at +20ms. Let’s get those stacked sensors out on every cam.

I thought it was a bit less than 16ms? 

For some comparisons btw, here is a list of rolling shutter specs:

Sony FX30 Rolling Shutter = 15.7 ms
BMPCC4K Rolling Shutter = 16 ms
BMPCC6k Rolling Shutter = 19.8 ms
Canon C70 Rolling Shutter = 15.6 ms
Panasonic S1H Rolling Shutter = 29.7 ms
Canon EOS R5 Rolling Shutter = 15.5 ms
Sony A7IV Rolling Shutter = 26.8 ms
Nikon Z9 Rolling Shutter = 14.5
Sony A1 Rolling Shutter = 16.6 ms

The FX30 really doesn't have "bad" rolling shutter. 

[Django]

..those all do when compared to aforementioned Alexa/Venice2..

FX3 is 8.7ms

XH2S is 11.5ms (at 14-bit readout)

 

[kye]

5 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

Honestly 12 bit RAW isn't a RED or ARRI competitor. To me that is the difference between a lot of lower end cameras compared to Venice, ARRI or RED.

RED and Venice are doing 16 bit and the ARRI is 14 bit readout into a 12 bit log Prores or RAW. These other cameras are doing a 12 bit readout into 12 bit linear RAW. It isn't the same. Maybe I am being too spec obsessive though. If the image looks good you can't argue with it. 

Yeah, I thought that 12-bit RAW sensor readout (and the corresponding 10bit log) was pretty much the standard on almost all cameras that have a log profile.  I thought that some cameras had a 14-bit readout but it wasn't that common.

Of course, that is just another feather in the cap for 5D with Magic Lantern - 14-bit RAW straight to the card.  Still a standout spec and stand-out image, 14 years later.

[TomTheDP]

28 minutes ago, kye said:

Yeah, I thought that 12-bit RAW sensor readout (and the corresponding 10bit log) was pretty much the standard on almost all cameras that have a log profile.  I thought that some cameras had a 14-bit readout but it wasn't that common.

Of course, that is just another feather in the cap for 5D with Magic Lantern - 14-bit RAW straight to the card.  Still a standout spec and stand-out image, 14 years later.

Yeah I know some shooters who still prefer the 5D over the likes of the Panasonic S1 or Pocket 4k. 

I am super happy with the performance of the Sigma FP which is only 12 bits. Maybe color depth beyond that isn't that important. Who knows 

[kye]

5 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

Yeah I know some shooters who still prefer the 5D over the likes of the Panasonic S1 or Pocket 4k. 

I am super happy with the performance of the Sigma FP which is only 12 bits. Maybe color depth beyond that isn't that important. Who knows 

Yes, the FP is a fascinating data point - having a spectacular image but it not being "better" in many/most of the specs that we tend to pay attention to.  Food for thought.

[IronFilm]

20 hours ago, Django said:

..those all do when compared to aforementioned Alexa/Venice2..

Sure! But really, reviews of a the FX30 should be more focused on comparing it against the direct competitors to the FX30 at a similar price point. 

Then in that context the FX30 has better rolling shutter than most, but worse than some. 

[Sharathc47]

how is dynamic range related to 12/14/16 bit adb readout?

the higher the bit depth the higher the dynamic range it seems

 Arri said alexa 35 sensor has 18bit readout, that's how it managed to get 17 stops of dynamic range.

can some sensor expert explain?

[Django]

14 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Sure! But really, reviews of a the FX30 should be more focused on comparing it against the direct competitors to the FX30 at a similar price point. 

Then in that context the FX30 has better rolling shutter than most, but worse than some. 

Never meant to single out the FX30. Really all I'm saying is I'd like mirrorless manufacturers in general to focus bit more on RS. We've got 10-bit log, we've got RAW, ProRes, 4K120/6K/8K etc. But read-out times are still average to poor on most of these prosumer cameras. I understand stacked sensor tech is still fairly new and expensive, I just can't wait to see it in every hybrid. XH2S is the only affordable large sensor camera that seems to sport one at the moment.