The new Fujifilm X-T5!

[kye]

1 hour ago, Django said:

AF performance can absolutely be quantified. How it levels to your particular needs is subjective though obviously.

Generally speaking subpar AF performance is simply an AF system that hunts/pumps or/and doesn't stick to your subject.

Then you've got second gen PDAF that detects left/right eyes of various subjects. Object, animal etc detection.

And finally tracking. Canon/Sony have tap to track which Fuji is still lacking.

I firmly believe that almost everything can be quantified, but this one falls very far beyond the point of what is practical.

The GH5 tests I saw with the person stepping into and out of frame had the AF recognise a face and change focus across a range of reaction times - sometimes it was fast and other times reluctant, and occasionally the person would just stand there being ignored like a camera nerd at a high-school dance.  There aren't any easy way to quantify this.  GH5 testers couldn't even get the test to replicate, providing a number of hilarious examples were the person was walking around saying how bad it was and it tracking them just fine, and other testers saying it was really good and it doing quite badly.

One YouTuber who got the C70 when it first came out admitted in a follow-up review that he had to stop using the C70 until it had a firmware update or two because when it first arrived it had trouble recognising faces of darker-skinned people.  IIRC he had to hire something to use on commercial shoots because the C70 wasn't ready yet.  Canon can't even test their AF properly and it's one of their key brand differentiators!

If you were to quantify AF performance, not only would you have to have a dozen or so metrics (speed to recognise a face, how out-of-focus the face can be before it recognises a face, maximum tracking speed, how much of the face has to be visible, how far around the side of the face it detects, how bad the lighting has to be for it to recognise a face, etc) but you'd really struggle to quantify the GH5-style lack of reliability except to have an enormous sample size.

Peter McKinnon made a promo video for his new product, and at the 6:12 mark, the camera goes from focusing on the object:

to focusing on his face:

the two frames above are 2 frames apart.  Why did the mighty Canon PDAF randomly choose that moment to change focus to his face from the largest object in the centre of the frame?  Heck knows, but there were even previous frames where more of his face was showing and it didn't choose those times to change focus....

Here's the video linked to that time - judge it for yourself...  

 

That's an AF problem right there.  People tend to think that Canon PDAF or Sony eye-detect PDAF are perfect but in reality they stuff up from time to time, and they tend to think that GH5 is completely useless when it actually gets things right quite a large percentage of the time.  

I've seen shots in vlogs where Canon PDAF cameras just randomly focus on the background when the persons face was visible the whole time.  They're rare, but I've seen at least two that made it to the final edit - we can only guess how many others ended up being cut. 

Any methodology that quantifies AF performance would be useless if it ignored the lack-of-reliability problem (because it would declare the GH5 AF to be great when it's obviously not) and it would be wrong if it gave Canon and Sony a perfect score when they obviously aren't quite there, despite being impressively close.

Sure, you can quantify some aspects of AF performance, but to be even remotely useful, you'd have to test so many variables and some of them would require such incredibly large sample sizes that it just wouldn't be practical.

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

About video AF with Fuji, for me they have two serious problems (at least in my X-S10:

- Face / Eye detect goes haywire with more than one person on scene - the worst problem for me. If there is a single person, it works very well - not Sony / Canon level, but for me good enough. But when there is more than one person, the focus point jumps around the various people on the scene. Tried to change the focus area hoping to force it to just look for faces in that area, no luck. Yes, you can use the joystick to move through the various faces detected, but right after it will jump to other face. Saw in some review of the X-H2s that now it gave some priority to a face in the determined focus area, but still have the problem. Don't know how it works with other brands. @MrSMWdo you have this problem too?

- Beacause of the issue above, the best solution would be using tracking - choose single focal point, put it in the head of the desired person, and track it. But...still no tracking in video from Fujifilm.

 

[MrSMW]

11 minutes ago, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

Saw in some review of the X-H2s that now it gave some priority to a face in the determined focus area, but still have the problem. Don't know how it works with other brands. @MrSMWdo you have this problem too?

Don't know, haven't got one.

I did buy an XH2...then sent it back, unused.

I may still go the Fuji route but after what has been 12 years now of Fuji and then Panasonic and actually having a need for reliable AF, it is one factor putting me off both brands right now.

Panny is fine for stills...in fact they both are and OK at static subjects.

Fuji is better still (IMO) but it's in the video tracking where there are still question marks for me...

 

[Django]

19 minutes ago, kye said:

I firmly believe that almost everything can be quantified, but this one falls very far beyond the point of what is practical.

The GH5 tests I saw with the person stepping into and out of frame had the AF recognise a face and change focus across a range of reaction times - sometimes it was fast and other times reluctant, and occasionally the person would just stand there being ignored like a camera nerd at a high-school dance.  There aren't any easy way to quantify this.  GH5 testers couldn't even get the test to replicate, providing a number of hilarious examples were the person was walking around saying how bad it was and it tracking them just fine, and other testers saying it was really good and it doing quite badly.

One YouTuber who got the C70 when it first came out admitted in a follow-up review that he had to stop using the C70 until it had a firmware update or two because when it first arrived it had trouble recognising faces of darker-skinned people.  IIRC he had to hire something to use on commercial shoots because the C70 wasn't ready yet.  Canon PDAF for-the-win!

If you were to quantify AF performance, not only would you have to have a dozen or so metrics (speed to recognise a face, how out-of-focus the face can be before it recognises a face, maximum tracking speed, how much of the face has to be visible, how far around the side of the face it detects, how bad the lighting has to be for it to recognise a face, etc) but you'd really struggle to quantify the GH5-style lack of reliability except to have an enormous sample size.

Peter McKinnon made a promo video for his new product, and at the 6:12 mark, the camera goes from focusing on the object:

to focusing on his face:

the two frames above are 2 frames apart.  Why did the mighty Canon PDAF randomly choose that moment to change focus to his face from the largest object in the centre of the frame?  Heck knows, but there were even previous frames where more of his face was showing and it didn't choose those times to change focus....

Here's the video linked to that time - judge it for yourself...  

 

That's an AF problem right there.  People tend to think that Canon PDAF or Sony eye-detect PDAF are perfect but in reality they stuff up from time to time, and they tend to think that GH5 is completely useless when it actually gets things right quite a large percentage of the time.  

I've seen shots in vlogs where Canon PDAF cameras just randomly focus on the background when the persons face was visible the whole time.  They're rare, but I've seen at least two that made it to the final edit - we can only guess how many others ended up being cut. 

Any methodology that quantifies AF performance would be useless if it ignored the lack-of-reliability problem (because it would declare the GH5 AF to be great when it's obviously not) and it would be wrong if it gave Canon and Sony a perfect score when they obviously aren't quite there, despite being impressively close.

Sure, you can quantify some aspects of AF performance, but to be even remotely useful, you'd have to test so many variables and some of them would require such incredibly large sample sizes that it just wouldn't be practical.

PDAF/DPAF isn't magical you know. Its computer based just like any auto-pilot system. 

Having used Canons DPAF since C100 I have learned to "master" it. And it requires careful control from the operators side.

I have a whole technique down that requires custom button configuring and specific AF settings. And even then its not fail proof, I often disengage it. But its a very handy tool that has saved me in tight situations.

It has also evolved throughout the years and is now very sophisticated. But it still requires careful monitoring and technique to be used properly. 

It also has a very different behaviour in between the Cine line and the mirrorless line although those lines are getting blurred. 

The C70 had indeed trouble focusing on dark subjects (not just humans). Its a known issue but was indeed fixed in firmware. 

Taking these isolated cases such as the C70 OS V1 or an AF fail from a solo YouTuber isn't really fair and I dare say your whole criticism of the DPAF system is rather armchair opinion.

I won't address the GH5 AF as I am not a GH5 user. But I do know that contrast-only AF is shaky at best for video usage. Its what my FS7 has. Like any AF system though you can learn its strength & limitations so no blanket statements here from me.

Getting back to Fuji, I have owned and used Fuji XT2 professionally and recently tested XH2S. In short, there is major improvement, in scenes with one subject the detection is very sticky. Problems arise when two or more subjects appear in frame and the camera decides who it focuses on which is a big no no in AF. Human operator should always be in control. 

[IronFilm]

3 hours ago, Django said:

Why would Canon/Nikon/Fuji goal be to push 8K TVs? They aren't Samsung, Sony or LG.

If only Samsung was here about to launch their Samsung NX3 with 8K 60fps 10bit h265 internal so as to push the limits once again of what mirrorless can do. (none can currently!)

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

4 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Don't know, haven't got one.

I did buy an XH2...then sent it back, unused.

I may still go the Fuji route but after what has been 12 years now of Fuji and then Panasonic and actually having a need for reliable AF, it is one factor putting me off both brands right now.

Panny is fine for stills...in fact they both are and OK at static subjects.

Fuji is better still (IMO) but it's in the video tracking where there are still question marks for me...

 

I thought that you were with Fuji again, I'm not entering here as often and is hard to keep tracking of tour camera changes. 😁

Now I saw that with the X-T5 only have 4k oversampled with a crop. Dunno how is the quality of the not-oversampled 4k, but it is a step back from X-T4.

Ok, X-T5 is clearly a stills focused camera, but it is bringing me VERY big concerns about the rest of the Fuji line. I'm a mid-range camera user (have a X-S10 now), and if this 40mp trickle down the line with even worse video specs, it will be a problem for me in the future - I want the (maybe) better IBIS and the better AF, but not downgrading the video quality.

My hope: the X-T50 and / or the X-S20 keeps the 26mp sensor (more than enough for me) with the new processor.

[MrSMW]

14 minutes ago, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

I thought that you were with Fuji again, I'm not entering here as often and is hard to keep tracking of tour camera changes.

10 years Nikon (5 film + 5 digital)

10 years Fuji 

2 years L Mount

Only changes I have made in 22 years!

Bodies and lenses within systems yes, but flip flopping between brands from one company's latest to another's? Nope, not me!

I tried an OM-1 recently and loved it, but decided not to keep it so sent it back while I still could.

I tried an XH2 even more recently...but actually didn't even try it as it did not arrive in time for my last job of the year...so sent that back.

Not even trying to get out of L Mount really...in fact, more than anything, I'd rather stay with them, but my current set up sadly just doesn't meet my needs and I have been wrestling with it all year long. No way am I doing that next year so yes, trying to decide:

A. What set ups are going to be available by end of Feb '23 max (ie, less than 4 months) and then,

B. Which system will I go with. As a long term brand investment.

Right now...

Hasselblad make the pure stills camera I lust after but is not in any way realistically feasible.

The Z9 is the best hybrid in 'pure camera no other factor terms', but the rest of the system doesn't meet my needs as well as others do.

Sony currently tick the most boxes.

Fuji tick the second most. (XH line not XT though)

L Mount could if they pop something...and the right thing out within 4 months.

Canon is a bit of an unknown for me but has options that could and will be explored.

 

[Django]

I strongly suggest testing these systems out before committing either way.

There is more than spec sheets and internet reviews when deciding on a system.

Ergonomics, shooting experience, color science, post workflow and file handling are all important factors that may vary from person to person.

 I shoot on both Canon & Sony and specs aside I feel zero emotional connection to Sony, neither when shooting or viewing the files. Its totally utilitarian and hence not very exciting or inspiring. Of course as a pro, all cameras are tools in the end but some brands just give you that little extra touch that makes the day a little more pleasant. 

I get that from Canon, Nikon & Fuji.. maybe because they are actual historical camera brands first and not consumer products with a recent imagery department. 

[kye]

4 hours ago, Django said:

I feel zero emotional connection to Sony, neither when shooting or viewing the files. Its totally utilitarian and hence not very exciting or inspiring.

This is how I feel about Sony as well.  I suspect if I was much better at colour grading, or had a professional colourist to do it for me then that might change things.  Fuji, on the other hand, really delivers in the X-Factor department, despite being technically not as good in a number of ways.

[IronFilm]

6 hours ago, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

Ok, X-T5 is clearly a stills focused camera, but it is bringing me VERY big concerns about the rest of the Fuji line. I'm a mid-range camera user (have a X-S10 now), and if this 40mp trickle down the line with even worse video specs, it will be a problem for me in the future - I want the (maybe) better IBIS and the better AF, but not downgrading the video quality.

My hope: the X-T50 and / or the X-S20 keeps the 26mp sensor (more than enough for me) with the new processor.

Hopefully they'll keep the 26MP sensor for a little while longer for the low / mid range cameras, as that will keep the price down. 

Or maybe they'll bring in the new 28MP sensor that is in the Sony FX30? 

As I think a lot of photographers will also prefer to not have the overkill 40MP sensor. 

[IronFilm]

6 hours ago, MrSMW said:

L Mount could if they pop something...and the right thing out within 4 months.

Hopefully you're not waiting for an APS-C L Mount camera.... seems like they're no longer:

https://www.l-rumors.com/some-l-lenses-marked-as-discontinued-in-japan/ 

But maaaybe very very soon a new Sigma camera might be announced? Maybe:

https://www.l-rumors.com/good-news-from-sigma-their-new-full-frame-foveon-sensor-will-be-ready-end-of-this-year/ 

Probably not the type of L Mount camera you're looking for though!

The latest rumor of an L Mount camera that would interest you is unfortunately from way back in July, and no new rumors since then:

https://www.l-rumors.com/first-rumors-about-a-possible-s5h/ 

(from the week beforehand: https://www.l-rumors.com/lumix-ambassador-makes-another-easter-egg-teases-the-launch-of-a-new-camera-with-sick-af/ )

[kye]

5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

As I think a lot of photographers will also prefer to not have the overkill 40MP sensor. 

I never thought about that, but yes, that makes sense.  

When I was doing stills I would shoot exclusively RAW images as the JPG versions always clipped the highlights (which is madness, but there we are), so if the file sizes of those doubled/tripled/quadrupled then that would potentially be a big deal and most people wouldn't really want 48MP over 12MP / 16MP / 24MP.  I mean, 12MP sounds pretty low res, but it's the same detail as 4K RAW video, which is plenty good enough for most purposes.

Of course, the storage requirements of shooting RAW stills is laughable compared to that of video, but for stills-only shooters it might be a thing.

[MrSMW]

There is not one single L Mount rumor of substance out there and that is a concern…

Leica/Panny did officially announce some months back that they are working on a camera together. When and what that will be is a bit of a mystery.

Leica have dropped their own APSC line and Panny do not have one so the logical conclusion is that it will be FF.

They have collaborated (rebadged Panny gear) on compacts before but as that market is near dead…

Sigma are at I think Stage 2 of 3 of their fovean sensor and the last I read is that they will make a decision at a certain point whether to continue that development or drop it.

To be honest, I have no real idea what a fovean sensor is other than a few years back it produced fantastic stills images. In bright sunlight. But if there was a cloud in the sky, you were fucked.

My not so secret desire is for a next gen FP.

What is wrong with the current FP/FP-L?

Loads…

Sigma France sent me a loaner for testing last year and it fell well short.

Loved the form factor and build. Probably my favourite ever camera in that regard.

Lacked any form of tilt screen. Fail. There’s an aftermarket DIY one but I’d rather not. Slap a Ninja V on top? Err, not really. That’s like putting a roof rack on a Ferrari and driving around with a wardrobe on the roof all the time.

No IBIS. Fail. Yes, could use an OIS lens or a gimbal, but that seriously limits lens options and use ability for hybrid work.

No 4k 50/60p. Fail. I’m not asking for 6 or 8, just 4, in camera, preferably uncropped.

Banding in certain light conditions. Fail. I know there is a kind of workaround but that’s just one more negative.

Battery life. Poor. Well just have a pocket full of the things or connect it to a battery pack…but the Ferrari is now towing a trailer.

I love the concept but the reality falls well short in too many areas.

I can only pray to the camera gods that they have something coming soon or it cannot be an option…

[MrSMW]

5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Hopefully they'll keep the 26MP sensor for a little while longer for the low / mid range cameras, as that will keep the price down. 

Or maybe they'll bring in the new 28MP sensor that is in the Sony FX30? 

As I think a lot of photographers will also prefer to not have the overkill 40MP sensor. 

It’s 26, same as the Fuji and probably the same one, just Bayer and not X Transgender.

I can understand why some would not want or need the 40mp sensor but it’s like a drug, - once you have tasted this higher res stuff, it’s difficult to go back!

When I picked up the S1R last year it was an immediate ‘wow’ moment. When I look at 24mp files now, they ‘lack’ something… OK, got to do a little peeping maybe and depends on the size of the screen and most clients (wedding) would never know, but I would know and that is part of it.

[kye]

7 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

There is not one single L Mount rumor of substance out there and that is a concern…

Leica/Panny did officially announce some months back that they are working on a camera together. When and what that will be is a bit of a mystery.

Leica have dropped their own APSC line and Panny do not have one so the logical conclusion is that it will be FF.

They have collaborated (rebadged Panny gear) on compacts before but as that market is near dead…

Sigma are at I think Stage 2 of 3 of their fovean sensor and the last I read is that they will make a decision at a certain point whether to continue that development or drop it.

To be honest, I have no real idea what a fovean sensor is other than a few years back it produced fantastic stills images. In bright sunlight. But if there was a cloud in the sky, you were fucked.

My not so secret desire is for a next gen FP.

What is wrong with the current FP/FP-L?

Loads…

Sigma France sent me a loaner for testing last year and it fell well short.

Loved the form factor and build. Probably my favourite ever camera in that regard.

Lacked any form of tilt screen. Fail. There’s an aftermarket DIY one but I’d rather not. Slap a Ninja V on top? Err, not really. That’s like putting a roof rack on a Ferrari and driving around with a wardrobe on the roof all the time.

No IBIS. Fail. Yes, could use an OIS lens or a gimbal, but that seriously limits lens options and use ability for hybrid work.

No 4k 50/60p. Fail. I’m not asking for 6 or 8, just 4, in camera, preferably uncropped.

Banding in certain light conditions. Fail. I know there is a kind of workaround but that’s just one more negative.

Battery life. Poor. Well just have a pocket full of the things or connect it to a battery pack…but the Ferrari is now towing a trailer.

I love the concept but the reality falls well short in too many areas.

I can only pray to the camera gods that they have something coming soon or it cannot be an option…

I'd also be particularly interested in an FPii if they added:

• tilt or flip screen
• IBIS (OIS doesn't stabilise rotation, which has ruined shots of mine on many occasions)
• improved compressed codecs (the h264 in the FP was very disappointing compared to the RAW)

I do wonder though if those additions (especially IBIS) would kind-of make it a different type of camera altogether.  Hollywood really dislikes IBIS (as the sensor moves around even when it's off) so adding IBIS kind of eliminating it from the world of cinema cameras, however, they didn't really market it as a cinema camera to being with, despite it being a 4K FF uncompressed RAW camera, so I'm not sure who / what Sigma thinks this camera is for.

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, kye said:

I never thought about that, but yes, that makes sense.  

When I was doing stills I would shoot exclusively RAW images as the JPG versions always clipped the highlights (which is madness, but there we are), so if the file sizes of those doubled/tripled/quadrupled then that would potentially be a big deal and most people wouldn't really want 48MP over 12MP / 16MP / 24MP.  I mean, 12MP sounds pretty low res, but it's the same detail as 4K RAW video, which is plenty good enough for most purposes.

Of course, the storage requirements of shooting RAW stills is laughable compared to that of video, but for stills-only shooters it might be a thing.

I think we no longer see online the "MOAR MEGAPICKLES" desire we used to see a decade ago, or even as recently as say just five years ago. 

Once we got into the twenty plus megapixel range (with a few extreme thirty and forty plus options for those super megapickles nerds to splinter off into and leave the rest of us alone with our 24MP cameras) then I think the burning desire for more megapixels largely died away for many photographers. 

You even saw some cameras go backwards in terms of their resolution. Such as the Nikon D7200 to Nikon D7500 has less megapixels with the next camera than the one beforehand. A very clear sign that megapixels is no longer the #1 thing photographers look to when buying a camera like they used to. 

Who knows, maybe one day we too in the video world will experience this! Wouldn't totally 100% shock me if the X-H2 has "so-so" 8K but the X-H3 has stellar 6K as the max resolution it can do. 

[kye]

23 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

I think we no longer see online the "MOAR MEGAPICKLES" desire we used to see a decade ago, or even as recently as say just five years ago. 

Once we got into the twenty plus megapixel range (with a few extreme thirty and forty plus options for those super megapickles nerds to splinter off into and leave the rest of us alone with our 24MP cameras) then I think the burning desire for more megapixels largely died away for many photographers. 

You even saw some cameras go backwards in terms of their resolution. Such as the Nikon D7200 to Nikon D7500 has less megapixels with the next camera than the one beforehand. A very clear sign that megapixels is no longer the #1 thing photographers look to when buying a camera like they used to. 

Who knows, maybe one day we too in the video world will experience this! Wouldn't totally 100% shock me if the X-H2 has "so-so" 8K but the X-H3 has stellar 6K as the max resolution it can do. 

That would be great.

"The pixels are just awful, but it's ok because there's a bazillion of them!" was never an attractive concept.

Of course, photographers have been shooting RAW for way longer than we have in video, and in video they give you more bitrate for higher resolutions, so it was never about the straight number of pixels anyway.  We may get there eventually, but it's not going to be any time soon!

[IronFilm]

5 hours ago, MrSMW said:

To be honest, I have no real idea what a fovean sensor is other than a few years back it produced fantastic stills images. In bright sunlight. But if there was a cloud in the sky, you were fucked.

Exactly. Infamous for their weakness in low light. 

99% of the time when newbies obsess over "low light" when choosing their next camera (such as FX30 vs FX3) they're being idiots, because even the one they think of as "bad in low light" is more than good enough!

Fovean however... even their next generation sensor? Nah, not so confident about that! 

 

[IronFilm]

6 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Battery life. Poor. Well just have a pocket full of the things or connect it to a battery pack…but the Ferrari is now towing a trailer.

 

As a 1st AC (or heck, as a cameraman) my personal record is going through THIRTEEN batteries on a (not even long!) shoot with an original BMD Pocket Cinema Camera for a music video. 

[IronFilm]

5 hours ago, kye said:

I'd also be particularly interested in an FPii if they added:

• tilt or flip screen
• IBIS (OIS doesn't stabilise rotation, which has ruined shots of mine on many occasions)
• improved compressed codecs (the h264 in the FP was very disappointing compared to the RAW)

I do wonder though if those additions (especially IBIS) would kind-of make it a different type of camera altogether.  Hollywood really dislikes IBIS (as the sensor moves around even when it's off) so adding IBIS kind of eliminating it from the world of cinema cameras, however, they didn't really market it as a cinema camera to being with, despite it being a 4K FF uncompressed RAW camera, so I'm not sure who / what Sigma thinks this camera is for.

I'm disappointed nobody has brought out a "lock off" mode for IBIS, where they grip it in place so it doesn't move at all, not even a millimeter.