2022 AF & the Panasonic case but what about Fujifilm?

[Emanuel]

Some sources out there say:

"It looks like Panasonic and DJI are jointly testing a new focusing method. The new system is said to utilize the LiDAR focus technology released with the Ronin 4D. If this technology can be introduced to Panasonic’s mirrorless camera, we can expect a significant improvement in video shooting. It is currently undergoing in-house testing and will be available in the near future."

source

 

When?!

source

 

Something that I really don't understand is why 40 years ago (!) we already had this... coupled with an external U-Matic, Beta or VHS recorder would allow autofocus by then

; )

From a main Brazilian newspaper ("Technology SHARP | yesterday for a few | today for millions") in 1983

 

But Fujifilm... isn't it PDAF based?

source

 

[Thpriest]

When is all Panasonic needs to tell us. I hope for their sake as well as those of us who are invested in their system that it’s the next generation of the S line.

[MrSMW]

Yes, I would very much like to know 'if' closely followed by 'when?'.

Surely they could not realistically release another camera without some form of 'on par' AF?

I think they'd bomb 100% if they did not.

And other than perhaps a size & weight concern for some, it's not just their weakness, but their Achilles Heel.

For some dedicated hardcore filmmaking purists, maybe not, but to the other 99% of the market, decent AF is a must.

I've wrestled with it for the last 2 years now.

OK, it's ONLY been an issue for less than 5% of my work where I need decent forward or backward tracking and there IS a workaround (it's called f8), but it's not ideal and I came sooooooo close to flipping to another brand to counter this.

That 5% need may be small, but it's a very important 5%.

But ultimately I decided against switching at this point in time and will go at least all of 2023 before making any changes for the simple reason that the cost to change is not worth it for the workaround.

Basically, it's a ballpark figure of 10k to make the move and it would be Sony because despite having zero desire to go with them, currently the package I'd be looking at with them works better than the package with anyone else.

But as above, I am sticking with L Mount for at least 2023.

In the process of having 2 bodies repaired from '22 battle damage, dumped a whole load of lenses (still have an EF Meike 50mm T2.1 cine if anyone is interested?!) and purchasing a few faster f1.4 primes and one new zoom.

All Pannyboy need to do to NOT cock it up for me with their next FF camera is:

A. Reliable AF at least close to if not better than current Canon/Sony.

B. Ideally, S5 size, but with the S1H style screen.

C. Ideally no crop 6k 50p / 4k 100p, 10 bit, internal.

Job done. I'll buy 3.

[Thpriest]

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

Yes, I would very much like to know 'if' closely followed by 'when?'.

Surely they could not realistically release another camera without some form of 'on par' AF?

I think they'd bomb 100% if they did not.

And other than perhaps a size & weight concern for some, it's not just their weakness, but their Achilles Heel.

For some dedicated hardcore filmmaking purists, maybe not, but to the other 99% of the market, decent AF is a must.

I've wrestled with it for the last 2 years now.

OK, it's ONLY been an issue for less than 5% of my work where I need decent forward or backward tracking and there IS a workaround (it's called f8), but it's not ideal and I came sooooooo close to flipping to another brand to counter this.

All Pannyboy need to do to NOT cock it up for me with their next FF camera is:

A. Reliable AF at least close to if not better than current Canon/Sony.

B. Ideally, S5 size, but with the S1H style screen.

C. Ideally no crop 6k 50p / 4k 100p, 10 bit, internal.

Job done. I'll buy 3.

Totally. I’ll add 2 things. The S1 LVF and being able to disable the angle/shutter wheel.

[MrSMW]

Oh and from what I have read...and it's all a bit sketchy TBH, but it 'sounds like' Panasonic are looking at both Lidar and PDAF and possibly have not quite made up their minds as to which.

But that would be concerning over any new S series in the Spring as they would have had to have made that decision a loooong time back such is the development of these things. At least as I understand them.

I would suspect...and it's purely a best guess/instinct, they not already know, but have as above, long since made whatever the decision is and maybe we'll get some leaks sooner rather than later.

My money is on them bringing something out in the Spring and I suspect it will be some kind of amalgamation of the S5 and S1 in terms of size and hopefully in 3 different flavours; S2, S2R and S2H.

At least that's what I'd like to see...

If they did do that and the spec was to my preferred requirements in my previous post, it would then simply be a case of trade in my current bodies as soon as, or see out the next season and then do it over the Winter break.

The prices of 'old' units will probably drop quite a bit I imagine but if I'm mid season, until I have any new kit, I can't offload any old.

We'll see but I do think it would be pure suicide to launch anything now that does not have up to scratch AF.

[IronFilm]

12 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Oh and from what I have read...and it's all a bit sketchy TBH, but it 'sounds like' Panasonic are looking at both Lidar and PDAF and possibly have not quite made up their minds as to which.

Why not both Lidar and DFD? A simple Lidar system built into the camera to get general ballpark focus then DFD to subtly fine tune it. As DFD is worst when it does those drastic big leaps backwards and forwards, if Lidar could eliminate that then it is a big improvement. 

[mercer]

Honestly, I don't quite understand why Panasonic shooters are still complaining about their AF? This isn't 2014, if you need AF go buy a Canon or Sony. It's not like Panasonic is leaps and bounds ahead of Canon and Sony with video features any more. In fact, they're probably lacking.

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

Why not both Lidar and DFD? A simple Lidar system built into the camera to get general ballpark focus then DFD to subtly fine tune it. As DFD is worst when it does those drastic big leaps backwards and forwards, if Lidar could eliminate that then it is a big improvement. 

I'm not very techy, but I guess that is what they mean/are working on?

Or at least exploring...

Indeed who says PDAF has to be the epitomy of AF. Like with so many new things, new tech comes along...

I don't care what it is, as long as it works...

[MrSMW]

51 minutes ago, mercer said:

Honestly, I don't quite understand why Panasonic shooters are still complaining about their AF? This isn't 2014, if you need AF go buy a Canon or Sony. It's not like Panasonic is leaps and bounds ahead of Canon and Sony with video features any more. In fact, they're probably lacking.

It's not that black & white.

Just on the financial side alone, on a like for like basis, including my trade in kit, I would be looking at a min 10k cost.

But otherwise, I agree that the edge that Panny had in video a couple of years ago, at least on paper has been equalled or exceeded by some others with their more recent products.

As we always say, most kit these days is more than good enough for the task so it's more a case of what works best for you vs the cost.

Otherwise it's a bit of 'everything' isn't it... build, ergos, menus, record limits, overheating (or lack of), reliability, AF (if you need it), lens options, size, weight, familiarity (which IMO is an underrated big one) etc...

[John Matthews]

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Why not both Lidar and DFD? A simple Lidar system built into the camera to get general ballpark focus then DFD to subtly fine tune it. As DFD is worst when it does those drastic big leaps backwards and forwards, if Lidar could eliminate that then it is a big improvement. 

Doesn't a focus limiter do this? ..."drastic leaps backwards and forwards"

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, MrSMW said:

But otherwise, I agree that the edge that Panny had in video a couple of years ago, at least on paper has been equalled or exceeded by some others with their more recent products.

I think if you ignore AF (& don't care about 8K), then overall the S5/S1H/GH6/GH5mk2 are in each in their niche "better" overall than the competition. 

But in the past with the GH2/GH4/GH5/etc I feel Panasonic had a much much larger "lead" on the competition. (plus you didn't need to say things like "if you ignore AF & 8K"). 

With time that gap has been close. To the point that gap is often too small for people to even notice, or care about. Especially as everything today has got "good enough". All cameras (at a certain price point and are modern enough) have decent "good enough" 4K 10bit internal recordings and can do slow motion. What more do we really need? 

Especially releases such as the Sony FX30, sub $2K and is a mini cinema camera in a mirrorless form factor. That's some damn tough competition!!

  

57 minutes ago, John Matthews said:

Doesn't a focus limiter do this? ..."drastic leaps backwards and forwards"

Sure, you could add this feature, and have the shooter manually set the limits between where they focus should hunt. 

But how big could this gap be reasonably from one limit to the other limit? A few dozen meters? Maybe just a few feet? 

Even rudimentary Lidar built into a camera could get this down to a range of just a few inches, or even less, maybe just half an inch. And you could then let the standard DFD approach take care of the last few millimeters to fine tune nailing the focus exactly. 

And zero manual intervention is needed by the shooter. If you're shooting an actor 10m or 1m away, you don't need to suddenly change what your limits are. (even worse if the actor changes that during a scene! Comes from 10m away to stopping right in front 1m away)

[Thpriest]

4 hours ago, mercer said:

Honestly, I don't quite understand why Panasonic shooters are still complaining about their AF? This isn't 2014, if you need AF go buy a Canon or Sony. It's not like Panasonic is leaps and bounds ahead of Canon and Sony with video features any more. In fact, they're probably lacking.

I think Panasonic is a much more stable video system than Sony and Canon and for many that counts a lot. It is probably more reliable when recording long form, has less faffing about than Sony to set up exposure and colour, it has 180 degrees. There are many reasons to like Panasonic over others and that's why we want reliable Panny AF. 

[John Matthews]

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Sure, you could add this feature, and have the shooter manually set the limits between where they focus should hunt. 

But how big could this gap be reasonably from one limit to the other limit? A few dozen meters? Maybe just a few feet? 

Even rudimentary Lidar built into a camera could get this down to a range of just a few inches, or even less, maybe just half an inch. And you could then let the standard DFD approach take care of the last few millimeters to fine tune nailing the focus exactly. 

And zero manual intervention is needed by the shooter. If you're shooting an actor 10m or 1m away, you don't need to suddenly change what your limits are. (even worse if the actor changes that during a scene! Comes from 10m away to stopping right in front 1m away)

I’m not too bothered by the current Panasonic AF system. For me, it’s been serviceable, not the best. For stills, I find it great. I really like the idea of a focus limiter, but I’d like to see an improvement in the interface or methodology to set it. If you watch YouTubers, you’d think contrast AF is more out of focus than in focus, which is total BS. Also, you’d think it works like crap in stills, which is also not the case. LiDAR sounds interesting, but I don’t know enough about it to comment.

[SMGJohn]

Panasonic should make a LiDAR adapter that just plugs into the hotshoe and firmware update to their 2018+ cameras and allow it to communicate with the DFD system, Panny boy would make a boatload of money doing that.

As for Fujifilm, in my experience its marginally better than Panasonic, the GH6 is kind of on par with the XH-2 series cameras so long you have contrast and good lighting, problem with Fuji seems like they do not care, they did not fix their IBIS during video mode at all, still horrible, worse than Sony (hows that even possible???) and their AF performance is massively dependant on their lenses, absolutely terrible design if you ask me, a lens should never impact AF performance other than speed of transition thats mostly down to the motor in the lens. 

Fuji cameras all seem made for photography specifically with video being afterthought, but then they release stuff like XH-2s which is a video beast if you ask me, its got the lowest rolling shutter of a semi-professional camera, shoots crazy good video apart from its 4k120 which is very noisy. 
But then you get stuff like poor video AF and poorer IBIS.

Whereas Panasonic nails the IBIS and are absolute feature beasts even their 1 inch pocket cameras are specced to the limit.
Its soon 2023 and manufacturers are bent on making sure no one makes a camera that is jack of all trades, why buy new products when camera that does it all exist? 

[MrSMW]

On 12/3/2022 at 9:51 PM, SMGJohn said:

Its soon 2023 and manufacturers are bent on making sure no one makes a camera that is jack of all trades, why buy new products when camera that does it all exist? 

This was pretty much my conclusion a couple of weeks back.

It's fair to say I have been wrestling with the L Mount system for 2 years now and have it mostly working, but still some niggles.

I had originally decided to jack it all in and go Sony simply because it would iron out those last few niggles...but at what cost?

Well 10k+ to change cost actually and that is ultimately what stopped me. Or at least having to put up a 10% deposit on the new house which killed any available funds anyway!

At the same time, I have not 'convinced' myself as such, but simply decided to sit tight (with a few changes in the lens department), use what I have and enjoy that until such a time in the future when it is right to make any further changes, whatever they may be.

But otherwise, yes all of them are literally just one component away from having the 'perfect' tool, for me. Except Sigma FP which is about 17...but I still love it 😁

[SMGJohn]

4 hours ago, MrSMW said:

This was pretty much my conclusion a couple of weeks back.

It's fair to say I have been wrestling with the L Mount system for 2 years now and have it mostly working, but still some niggles.

I had originally decided to jack it all in and go Sony simply because it would iron out those last few niggles...but at what cost?

Its ironic that Panasonic really only lacks good autofocus otherwise it be the be all end all system, apart from ridicules weight on their GH6 which weights more than S5 and their huge bulky first party lens selection.

With the L mount you need focus pull system and even the lightest bulk you can strap on you are still looking at 3 - 4kg of girth to carry around be it a cage system or a gimbal. 

But the fact is, there nothing thats as good as S5 at least to my knowledge specially in this price range when it comes to video and hybrid functionality, L-mount is highway robbery and having been Samsung user for 8 years, I am a little worried this mount is not gonna go anywhere, so you kind of invest into glass that can only be used with cameras that are gonna grow old and when they break its sayonara. 

Olympus OM-1 seems like a good hybrid system but barely anyone uses it for video which raises some flags despite having 6ms sensor readout even in 4k60 ProRes RAW.

Panny GH6 is cool but heavy and still unreliable AF but wonderful image quality. 

Canon is overpriced FF bodies and glass, their R7 is crippled beyond help, 4k FINE mode is 30ms which makes it unusable to anything but scenery shots, 4k lineskipping has good rolling shutter but then you are reduced to a softer image than NX1 from 2014.

Sony horrible IBIS, horrible body prices, horrible CFA output because they are so Goddamn tiny to allow better ISO and a lot of their bodies have 25+ms readout speed, might have been acceptable in 2012 but not in 2022.

Its just endless compromises, all I want is a camera thats got 15ms or less rolling shutter, shoots good 10bit video so you can actually work with this crap, with a fast zoom f2.8 lens weights in total under 1kg so you can actually use this son of a gun on a gimbal thats compact and an autofocus system that does not hunt.

Fujifilm probably has the least compromises, the video AF-C is better than Panny but still has reliability issues when it for some reasons switched to DFD for no reasons. 
Its IBIS is piss for video panning but damn good for shots that requires no movement and excellent for video, Fuji also has pretty decent lens selection that does not cost your right testicle. XH-2S is still pretty pricy but has a lot going for it among faster sensor than A7s3

Its like they all have an agreement not to overstep the golden boundary of the ultimate super camera, oh I forgot Nikon, imao only their Z9 is worth attention from a hybrid user, none of their other bodies has 10bit video and requires external recorders, more bulk and none of these ext recorders are weather sealed and are awful in cold weather. Z9 is a monster truck though, its even got the price of one. 

[ade towell]

17 hours ago, SMGJohn said:

Its like they all have an agreement not to overstep the golden boundary of the ultimate super camera,

The cartel system is very much alive and tolerated in Japan

[ade towell]

Samsung could have been amazingly disruptive if they had stuck around in the camera business

[SMGJohn]

6 hours ago, ade towell said:

Samsung could have been amazingly disruptive if they had stuck around in the camera business

Samsung could have and its rather ironic considering the power Samsung has in South Korea, its not like their camera business did poorly locally either, South Koreans have this weird Stockholm syndrom when it comes to buying Korean and their camera business did good, I guess it was not good enough elsewhere though, still see bodies go for 400 - 600 euros and lenses for 500+ euros, crazy market for these things.

[MrSMW]

9 hours ago, ade towell said:

Samsung could have been amazingly disruptive if they had stuck around in the camera business

Company A. “We will make ours overheat”.

Company B. “We will give ours autofocus from the mid 90’s”.

Company C. “We will withhold anything that might compete with our cinema line”.

Company D. “We will produce the best camera…but then make it absolutely massive and heavy”.

Company E. “We will keep on doing retro funky but segment our product lines so no single camera within our lineup can do it all”.

Company F. “Ve don’t give ze two sheetz about your gentleman’s agreement and vill continue to sell to ze dentist market”.