Panasonic S5 II (What does Panasonic have up their sleeve?)

[Django]

Excellent!!!

[HockeyFan12]

You can download a camera original here in HEVC I think. Adobe has had issues with HEVC and macro blocking in the past; OSX had different issues with gamma shifting. This is old firmware, too, so color might have changed:

The S1's color does not match the Varicam or EVA1 very well. Then again, the A7S3 does not quite match the Venice either as skin tones are quite red. Imo the HEVC codec is actually pretty good.

Panasonic has always had impressive internal processing. First to 4K I think with the GH series, first to 6K downscaled to 4K in a prosumer camera that actually looked good with the EVA1. And the S1 doing 6K is impressive to me too. 

It's an amazing camera. BUT it's also the only camera I've ever worked with where a white surface can look magenta on one side and cyan in the other? There is just this "thin" quality to the color and high contrast look to the mid tones at times. The color and tonality tend to feel a little thin, and it's hard to describe, and probably possible to fix in post.

 

 

[Django]

@HockeyFan12 Funny I was just watching his S5ii Tokyo coverage. I'll have a play at that while I await hyalinejim's files.

As for the image looking "thin" well we these are rather low bitrate 4:2:0 h265 files. Can't expect the moon.

I do expect S5iiX to have thicker image with ALL-I and especially ProRes codec. Speaking of, I'm getting conflicting info concerning S5iiX internal ProRes. Will it be at all resolutions or FHD only?

[Django]

Just saw an update on Cined concerning S5IIX: 

C4K ALL-I (H), at 800Mbps and needs to be outputted to SSD.

C4K ALL-I (L), at 700Mbps and can be recorded internally.

• Recording Apple ProRes 422 HQ in HD internally

• Record 5.8K Apple ProRes externally to SSD via HDMI or USB

[hyalinejim]

So no CF Express slot, I guess. 

[HockeyFan12]

The HEVC codec is pretty good. Take a look at ProRes raw footage from the S5/S1(H) and compare it with HEVC. It's got less texture (less noise), but it's not really a world apart. 

But then compare with clips from the P4K and P6K. Black Magic has color in a better starting place. Maybe it's because Black Magic has the luxury of making Resolve. Maybe it is the codec after all. But the P6K is the first camera where I can take a braw clip, bring it into Nuke, run it through ACES, render and not know if it was shot on an Alexa or P6K.

(And with highlight recovery, the dynamic range is even pretty comparable.)

ProRes should be a big step up on the S5IIX. But I don't need it. HEVC is pretty good. The bigger problem I have is I'm just not in love with the S1's color.

I also don't HATE the S1's color. And I don't LOVE the A7SIII's color (too much red in the skin) or even Canon's (too much magenta in the skin). Of course everyone is biased toward what they're used to. But the Alexa, Venice, and P6K look great. (And have greener skin tones.)

The A9II looks great to me too? Starting to get the impression that sensors have an inherent look. The Varicam35 had great color, too. So did the C300 Mk1 for that matter. 😕 

[Django]

Yeah well shooting RAW always helps when doing heavy grading. You can't compare it to 180mbps 6K HEVC.

But I hear you, there is something special, something else coming from BMD cams. The image has a thickness, an organic cinematic property, that you just don't find in mirrorless hybrids. I notice it, my clients notice it. That's why we use BMD cams on narrative, high-end advertising etc.

That said, the gap is closing. With chunky 10-bit files the grading can be pushed nicely. It's a different look, cleaner/thinner, more digital photo like. It suits plenty of applications. Not everything needs to look super cinematic. 

Lenses play a big part too. Not too many Alexa, RED, Venice footage using $500 photo lenses.

And the bottom line is specs. We're talking compact hybrids with IBIS, PDAF & EVFs. 

Getting back to Vlog, my first impressions are good. The standard "Vlog to V709" LUT inside Resolve is pretty accurate. Kind of a mild curve (I'm used to more contrast) but its a good starting point. I am surprised at what this little HEVC 4:2:0 codec can hold.

 

[newfoundmass]

32 minutes ago, Django said:

Getting back to Vlog, my first impressions are good. The standard "Vlog to V709" LUT inside Resolve is pretty accurate. Kind of a mild curve (I'm used to more contrast) but its a good starting point. I am surprised at what this little HEVC 4:2:0 codec can hold.

Now you see why I was surprised when people said they didn't like working with Vlog? I prefer Gamut's conversion LUT, but they all get you "in the ballpark" so to speak. It's pretty easy to get the look you're after.

[Emanuel]

7 hours ago, HockeyFan12 said:

The HEVC codec is pretty good. Take a look at ProRes raw footage from the S5/S1(H) and compare it with HEVC. It's got less texture (less noise), but it's not really a world apart. 

But then compare with clips from the P4K and P6K. Black Magic has color in a better starting place. Maybe it's because Black Magic has the luxury of making Resolve. Maybe it is the codec after all. But the P6K is the first camera where I can take a braw clip, bring it into Nuke, run it through ACES, render and not know if it was shot on an Alexa or P6K.

(And with highlight recovery, the dynamic range is even pretty comparable.)

ProRes should be a big step up on the S5IIX. But I don't need it. HEVC is pretty good. The bigger problem I have is I'm just not in love with the S1's color.

I also don't HATE the S1's color. And I don't LOVE the A7SIII's color (too much red in the skin) or even Canon's (too much magenta in the skin). Of course everyone is biased toward what they're used to. But the Alexa, Venice, and P6K look great. (And have greener skin tones.)

The A9II looks great to me too? Starting to get the impression that sensors have an inherent look. The Varicam35 had great color, too. So did the C300 Mk1 for that matter. 😕 

Correct : ) Nothing wrong with Canon tough.

 

To shoot the real world is dealing with something to invariably happen fake.

Reality is whatever you want, maybe the truth but anything else other than film :- )

- EAG

[Emanuel]

*though

[MrSMW]

8 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

So no CF Express slot, I guess. 

Reserved for the S1 line successor I guess ie, S5 is the ‘prosumer’ line but S1+ will remain the ‘pro’ option.

 

7 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Now you see why I was surprised when people said they didn't like working with Vlog? I prefer Gamut's conversion LUT, but they all get you "in the ballpark" so to speak. It's pretty easy to get the look you're after.

Between this and using Film Convert’s option but the Gamut option is supposed to be a better conversion/starting point than any of Panny’s own options.

[ade towell]

I like the highlight roll off from the Emotive color Alexa conversion created by Sage who I've not seen around here for a while. It was specifically tuned for S5, S1 and S1H, wonder if it would need tweaking for S5ii

[Django]

Still some issues with the red channel vs Sony/Canon.. and he goes through Gamut, CST etc:

 

[TomTheDP]

It's very interesting how color differs from the lower end to higher end cameras. Even from S1 to EVA1 to Varicam. Is this carelessness or further market segmentation. 

[Django]

Well color science also evolves generation after generation, but the same old LUTs often remain. 

Saturated reds is something Leica is famous for so I wonder if this is their influence. It seems like their CS is closer than ever to Panasonics now with L2 image processing.

[TomTheDP]

10 minutes ago, Django said:

Well color science also evolves generation after generation, but the same old LUTs often remain. 

Saturated reds is something Leica is famous for so I wonder if this is their influence. It seems like their CS is closer than ever to Panasonics now with L2 image processing.

Why would they not release a new lut after intentionally changing the color science though.

[hyalinejim]

13 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

Why would they not release a new lut after intentionally changing the color science though.

Yes, because the colour in V-Log varies so much from camera to camera, ideally Panasonic would create a LUT for each model so that they match. For example, Adobe creates an Adobe Standard RAW profile for each new camera model released to minimise differences between cameras when using their software.

[HockeyFan12]

36 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

Why would they not release a new lut after intentionally changing the color science though.

I don't think it's intentional.

Even the P4K and P6K and Venice and A7S3III don't match perfectly. 

[hyalinejim]

@Django and anyone else who's interested I've uploaded a bunch of very short clips here at different resolutions and crop factors to check out:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/13zSYccjrhj1WXKDNMFioxTAoQbZyuP80?usp=share_link

[newfoundmass]

Granted they're a retailer, but another test. Starting to think Panny (or Sigma) did something to make them work so well.