Panasonic S5 II (What does Panasonic have up their sleeve?)

[zerocool22]

Ok never mind, I think I found it. I think it is a bug, doing some tests later on, maybe I will ask one of you to test the same. 

[ade towell]

Ok received the S5ii with 20-60mm and 50mm lens kit this morning, charged the battery had a very quick play and then took it with me on a shoot this afternoon - nothing too taxing or crazy, just filming speakers at a conference and took some photos in between.   

Was able to use it instead of the Canon R6 until it ran out of battery (only had the one, lasted about as long as R6 battery does - couple of hours in 4k). Here are my thoughts so far...

Some real positives over the R6 for this type of work -

No 30 minute limit (one of the talks was 40 minutes) so was nice to capture it all

Able to use my 7" monitor whilst having full access to the cameras touchscreen - this was lovely and so much more relaxing for my ageing eyes. Great to be able to put lut on monitor and also use full HDMI - even without a cage felt more reassuring than horrible micro

No overheating whatsoever in 4k 10 bit 422 for 2 hours - priceless for peace of mind. Once the battery ran out had to use the R6 and overheating warning came on in the last hour so changed recording down to HD for the last speaker

Comparing to the R6 they are very similar in size and weight - S5ii feels very solid, R6  a bit plasticy in comparison although slightly nicer grip in the hand (was marginal though and maybe dependent on hand size).  S5ii AF with the 20-60mm and 50mm 1.8 seemed to stick well once it locked onto a face. Nothing very taxing but did a good job I think - will need to check through all the footage but am pretty confident it worked as well as the R6 under these conditions

Audio - used Sound Devices mix pre-d at line level 96khz 24 bit into the S5ii - seems to capture a clean sound, need to do some testing but think it is a step up from the R6 

The 20-60mm lens is probably the best kit lenses I've used - well made, nicely dampened focus ring and zoom. Love that it's 20mm on the wide as opposed to standard 24mm, don't think I'll need any wider. Bit short on the long end but used it in apsc mode - quality seems a little sharper than the r6's crop mode but am only eyeballing off the screen

The 50mm 1.8 is really nice, completely silent AF, nice size and lovely feel to the large focus ring, also quite pleasing bokeh from first impression, felt like a quality lens - obviously in a different price bracket to the Canon 50mm STM lens but yes a lot nicer to use 

That's all for now, feel like it could be a good purchase though of course early days so time will tell, used vlog and am just trying some luts in Resolve now - looks pretty good for conference type lighting

[ade towell]

Just to be clear it's the Canon R6 mark 1 I'm comparing the S5ii with, R6 mark 2 does solve some of the above issues such as 30 minute recording limit and overheating although I'm not 100% convinced by Canon on that. The Panasonic has a fan and been tested at much higher temperatures. But the R6ii is nearly £800 more expensive in the UK which puts it in a different price bracket for me

Syncro scan was also really handy as all the speakers were in front of a screen

Anyway just playing around a bit more and have to say the IBIS on the S5ii is amazing, completely different level to anything I've tried before - wow that opens up a lot of different shot possibilities and am sure will speed up b-roll process  

Apologies for the stream of consciousness...

[newfoundmass]

2 hours ago, ade towell said:

The 20-60mm lens is probably the best kit lenses I've used - well made, nicely dampened focus ring and zoom. Love that it's 20mm on the wide as opposed to standard 24mm, don't think I'll need any wider. Bit short on the long end but used it in apsc mode - quality seems a little sharper than the r6's crop mode but am only eyeballing off the screen

Couldn't agree more. It's the only kit lens I've kept instead of selling.

[Simon Young]

There's some fuzz in other forums about the S5ii using a new algorithm that seems to smooth skin texture a bit too much. As far as I've seen in the comments this seems to be happening in "normal" picture profiles. Have you noticed a difference in Vlog with regards to this, @hyalinejim? Thank you by the way for the footage and info, really impressed by the s35 quality too, where the rolling shutter seems to be very well controlled.

[hyalinejim]

31 minutes ago, Simon Young said:

Have you noticed a difference in Vlog with regards to this

I can't say that I have noticed a problem with artificially smoothed skin textures in V-Log but I haven't looked very closely so that's not say that it's not there. Deezid often has good insights into detail, noise reduction and sharpening. @deezid there's a link to footage on the previous page if you're interested in taking a look.

If this phenomenon is confined to the normal profiles then that's fine with me as I never use them.

BTW, another issue doing the rounds on FB groups is that in HD 50/60 full frame there is no PDAF, only contrast based. Crop HD is fine, as are normal frame rates in HD. Just something to be aware of.

[Simon Young]

1 hour ago, hyalinejim said:

I can't say that I have noticed a problem with artificially smoothed skin textures in V-Log but I haven't looked very closely so that's not say that it's not there. Deezid often has good insights into detail, noise reduction and sharpening. @deezid there's a link to footage on the previous page if you're interested in taking a look.

If this phenomenon is confined to the normal profiles then that's fine with me as I never use them.

BTW, another issue doing the rounds on FB groups is that in HD 50/60 full frame there is no PDAF, only contrast based. Crop HD is fine, as are normal frame rates in HD. Just something to be aware of.

Yup, if it's confined to the normal profiles this is a complete non issue as far as I'm concerned.

[Django]

15 hours ago, ade towell said:

Just to be clear it's the Canon R6 mark 1 I'm comparing the S5ii with, R6 mark 2 does solve some of the above issues such as 30 minute recording limit and overheating although I'm not 100% convinced by Canon on that. The Panasonic has a fan and been tested at much higher temperatures. But the R6ii is nearly £800 more expensive in the UK which puts it in a different price bracket for me

Syncro scan was also really handy as all the speakers were in front of a screen

Anyway just playing around a bit more and have to say the IBIS on the S5ii is amazing, completely different level to anything I've tried before - wow that opens up a lot of different shot possibilities and am sure will speed up b-roll process  

Apologies for the stream of consciousness...

No that's some great feedback keep it coming! I'm trying myself to decide if I'm sticking with Canon or switching to Panasonic. I think I'd have to wait for the S5iiX though (I like chunky codecs). 

My concern is still AF. From a lot of the S5ii tests I've seen, it still feels like a first gen PDAF. Initial focus acquisition has this lag and there seems to be the occasional random hunt. And if multiple faces show up it gets very confused. Now no AF is perfect, the R6's had its issues too but R6ii does now have subject only, taken straight from the cinema line (R5 doesn't even have this) which locks on a face and never back-focuses even if the face leaves the frame. That along the low RS, no crop 4K60p and overall CS makes me wanna remain in Canon eco-system. 

That said, Panasonic has its own merits so looking forward to hearing more feedback, especially compared to Canon. 

Thanks and congrats on the new purchase.

[Emanuel]

1 hour ago, Django said:

I'm trying myself to decide if I'm sticking with Canon or switching to Panasonic. I think I'd have to wait for the S5iiX though (I like chunky codecs).

I don't see why you can't have the best of both worlds to couple a R5C (8K60p + 4K120fps) and a S5IIX (IBIS) as for instance, on PDAF camp, simply going along EF glass?

[ade towell]

No worries Django still have the R6 and will continue to test see which way I go too.

Regarding AF I think the R6 is a little snappier at first latching on to a face, it's a small difference but have noticed it - once the Panny has hold though it's pretty solid and didn't do anything unexpected yesterday. Perhaps Panasonic will continue to tweak the AF, it's early days for them with PDAF and they're normally pretty good with firmware updates. 

Got to say the S5ii footage in 4k apsc mode with kit lens at f5.6 1600 iso looks cleaner and to my eyes has a more pleasing image/colours than Canon R6 4k in full frame mode with L series 24-105mm at f4 1250 iso. That's surprised me - it was starting to get dark outside by the time I was using the R6 so the overall lighting had changed a bit. Tried your CST Resolve settings hyalinejim on the S5ii, and the R6 with Canon log3 to WDR lut - they both give the footage a bright glossy look with subtle differences. Sorry can't show any footage as of yet.

[Django]

3 hours ago, Emanuel said:

I don't see why you can't have the best of both worlds to couple a R5C (8K60p + 4K120fps) and a S5IIX (IBIS) as for instance, on PDAF camp, simply going along EF glass?

That is a possibility but matching footage from different brands is something I'd rather avoid, even though using EF glass on both platforms should make things bit more consistent. (however color science and overall image processing would still differ).

2 hours ago, ade towell said:

Got to say the S5ii footage in 4k apsc mode with kit lens at f5.6 1600 iso looks cleaner and to my eyes has a more pleasing image/colours than Canon R6 4k in full frame mode with L series 24-105mm at f4 1250 iso. That's surprised me - it was starting to get dark outside by the time I was using the R6 so the overall lighting had changed a bit. Tried your CST Resolve settings hyalinejim on the S5ii, and the R6 with Canon log3 to WDR lut - they both give the footage a bright glossy look with subtle differences. Sorry can't show any footage as of yet.

Yeah I mean the S5ii footage hyalinejim provided also convinces me that the 4K footage looks indeed super clean, with a very pleasing organic look. Even though it's only shot with Tamron zoom. Pretty impressive. 

I would of course be curious to see footage with same EF-L glass shot on R6 vs S5ii for a more definitive comparison.

[TomTheDP]

16 minutes ago, Django said:

That is a possibility but matching footage from different brands is something I'd rather avoid, even though using EF glass on both platforms should make things bit more consistent. (however color science and overall image processing would still differ).

Yeah I mean the S5ii footage hyalinejim provided also convinces me that the 4K footage looks indeed super clean, with a very pleasing organic look. Even though it's only shot with Tamron zoom. Pretty impressive. 

I would of course be curious to see footage with same EF-L glass shot on R6 vs S5ii for a more definitive comparison.

Man that speaks really badly for the Canon. 

[hyalinejim]

Hey, don't knock my Tamron zoom! 😂

That's a lovely lens. It's like T2.9 or something which is unreal.

Another factor contributing to the organic look, in the interests of full disclosure, could well be the slightly scuffed vari-ND I've had for years. The result is a nice blooming of the highlights at open apertures, no diffusion needed!

[Django]

4 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

Man that speaks really badly for the Canon. 

Huh? How so? Complimenting Panny IQ doesn't mean speaking bad on Canon.

From the camera conspiracy tests, the Canon skin tones are still king and beat both A7S3 and S5ii imo. 

Panasonic may have better DR, sharpness, motion though.. I dunno, I wanna see actual comparisons with same lenses.

9 minutes ago, hyalinejim said:

Hey, don't knock my Tamron zoom! 😂

That's a lovely lens. It's like T2.9 or something which is unreal.

Another factor contributing to the organic look, in the interests of full disclosure, could well be the slightly scuffed vari-ND I've had for years. The result is a nice blooming of the highlights at open apertures, no diffusion needed!

Sorry, I know a lot of people do seem to like them! I guess that's just the lens snob in me speaking, like I said the resulted footage looks really good, so clearly the lens hits above its price point.

The old ND might have something to do with it too! I need to experiment more with filters to rub off the modern clinical photo lens look. 

[TomTheDP]

12 minutes ago, Django said:

Huh? How so? Complimenting Panny IQ doesn't mean speaking bad on Canon.

I never liked using S35 4K mode on the S1 as it always looked softer and noisier, especially above 800 iso. It is just surprising the Canon in FF 4k mode looks worse. 

[hyalinejim]

19 minutes ago, Django said:

the modern clinical photo lens look. 

I was considering the Panasonic 24-105 because there absolutely are times when I want an image with no distortion and no vignetting, but then again I think the camera also applies algorithmic sharpening when it's a Lumix lens.

Like I've had a GH5 since 2017 and it came with the 12-60 f2.8. I used it on a handful of occasions when I needed an architectural shot with straight lines, but the rest of the time I used non-Panasonic glass on a Metabones. It's not just about the DOF, though, it's about knocking back that clinical look. So distortion, vignetting, softness and diffusion are all parts of that. Maybe also chromatic aberration, sometimes. I hesitate to say flare, because I really don't like flare.

[HockeyFan12]

I like the 6K image from the S1 a lot. But I have noticed it doesn't have the best color.

Back in 2015 or so, the Varicam35 had the best looking color rendering short of Arri. EVA1 is better than the S1H too. GH5 probably is too though.

I like the A7S3 but the skin tones are too red. However it matches the Venice better than the S1H matches the Varicam. 

But the Venice is incredible. The image is too sharp for my taste but the color rendering, tonality, rolling shutter, etc. is Alexa-level or better. You lose a tiny bit of highlight detail but the Venice is an incredible camera overall. And I DID NOT like the F55. (But I did like the F35....)

What's going on? 

There must be a big difference between cameras on the sensor level. 

Why does Black Magic have great color on both the P4K and P6K? Maybe they picked the right sensors?

These are all small complains. The S1 and A7S3 are EXCELLENT. All of these options are incredible. But it feel like Sony and Black Magic could make a $4k cinema camera that's as good as the Alexa LF or Venice. Understandably, they probably don't really want to.

[Django]

57 minutes ago, HockeyFan12 said:

But it feel like Sony and Black Magic could make a $4k cinema camera that's as good as the Alexa LF or Venice. Understandably, they probably don't really want to.

Not that easy. The Alexa ALEV sensor still holds a lot of secrets. I think Canon are the ones getting close with the DGO sensor inside C70.

 

59 minutes ago, HockeyFan12 said:

Why does Black Magic have great color on both the P4K and P6K? Maybe they picked the right sensors?

BM have great CS resources via DaVinci RS. But even they keep trying to improve their CS, now at Gen5.

2 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

I never liked using S35 4K mode on the S1 as it always looked softer and noisier, especially above 800 iso. It is just surprising the Canon in FF 4k mode looks worse. 

Ok, I think you meant to quote @ade towell I never spoke on that particular comparison.

[TomTheDP]

57 minutes ago, Django said:

Not that easy. The Alexa ALEV sensor still holds a lot of secrets. I think Canon are the ones getting close with the DGO sensor inside C70.

 

BM have great CS resources via DaVinci RS. But even they keep trying to improve their CS, now at Gen5.

Ok, I think you meant to quote @ade towell I never spoke on that particular comparison.

yeah meant to quote abe. 

In terms of the the DGO sensors it is cool to see. Apparently the URSA mini 4.6k was DGO as well. 

The only thing is the C70 and also the GH6 don't seem to have more dynamic range than say the S1's non DGO full frame sensor. I am curious to see if we'll get a full frame DGO sensor from someone. I kind of prefer single ISO sensors to dual for whatever reason. 

[Django]

54 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

yeah meant to quote abe. 

In terms of the the DGO sensors it is cool to see. Apparently the URSA mini 4.6k was DGO as well. 

The only thing is the C70 and also the GH6 don't seem to have more dynamic range than say the S1's non DGO full frame sensor. I am curious to see if we'll get a full frame DGO sensor from someone. I kind of prefer single ISO sensors to dual for whatever reason. 

Actually according to CineD, S1 has about 12 stops and C70 is closer to 13. Also according to them, S1 uses aggressive NR (even when set to -5) to achieve such results. While C70 has virtually no NR with that score. Something extra to consider when comparing metrics.

Also, the nice thing about how the DGO sensor works on C70 is very clean shadow information. So low shadow noise, high DR with pleasant roll-off. That's a dream type of sensor for me personally. I'll also take that over dual gain ISO any day.