Panasonic S5 II (What does Panasonic have up their sleeve?)

[PannySVHS]

I liked all the outdoor shots from the GH6 better:) More sublte tones, skin without the pinkness of the S5. Good test, thank you for posting. ISO640 is not even Dual Gain, right? Still GH6 is performing lovely. But GH6 should have had PDAF and the quality of S5 IBIS! Well..

[Beritar]

6 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

I liked all the outdoor shots from the GH6 better:) More sublte tones, skin without the pinkness of the S5. Good test, thank you for posting. ISO640 is not even Dual Gain, right? Still GH6 is performing lovely. But GH6 should have had PDAF and the quality of S5 IBIS! Well..

I use both cameras and I'm not sure the S5ii IBIS is better. I need to make a side by side test with multiple lenses.

[John Matthews]

17 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

I liked all the outdoor shots from the GH6 better:) More sublte tones, skin without the pinkness of the S5. Good test, thank you for posting. ISO640 is not even Dual Gain, right? Still GH6 is performing lovely. But GH6 should have had PDAF and the quality of S5 IBIS! Well..

I had similar thoughts. However, I was most surprised by the AF that looked surprisingly similar given the AF upgrade on the S5ii. Clearly, you'd trust it more in a Youtube situation. However, after watching Blooms' Sony video on "manual autofocus", I decided that manual AF is the way to go, even in 2023 for a lot of content. You end up putting way too much trust in the technology and fiddling around with settings when you could simply do another take if you know you missed it.

It would seem there's an unhealthy paranoia around focus in general. Talk to a YouTuber and they'd say it's the most important point on a camera with seemingly higher standards than Hollywood... for YouTube. It's a strange world we live in.

Concerning the DR Boost, I was also surprised he didn't use it. He should have because all the frame rates that the S5ii is capable of, the GH6 CAN use DR Boost. Also, that crop for 60fps is only mildly bigger that the GH6 60fps 4K.

The IBIS on the S5ii looks good on the wide end, but would seriously doubt the long end looking better than the GH6. Also, they was only 1 shot.

[MrSMW]

5 hours ago, John Matthews said:

I decided that manual AF is the way to go, even in 2023 for a lot of content.

Ditto. 2022 and 2021 also.

I have a need for good AF in only a couple of scenarios, - entrances, exits and tracking a couple walking, but otherwise, in all other circumstances,  I only use AF to get the initial focus lock, then switch to manual.

When my S5ii does arrive...but this being France, it will be after the rest of the world and several other planets, it's going on the gimbal and living there with the gimbal itself being on or off a tripod. Entrances, exits, tracking and some general static duty will be it's only role.

S1H, tripod only, dedicated to anything requiring 30 min+ static video.

Pair of S1R's for principally stills, but also some B roll video.

Job done for me! I don't 'need' anything else and won't be doing anything else in 2023.

Beyond that, any changes might be to those S1R's, but more because I fancy it than need it, ie, all actual needs, already fulfilled.

[John Matthews]

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

Ditto. 2022 and 2021 also.

I have a need for good AF in only a couple of scenarios, - entrances, exits and tracking a couple walking, but otherwise, in all other circumstances,  I only use AF to get the initial focus lock, then switch to manual.

When my S5ii does arrive...but this being France, it will be after the rest of the world and several other planets, it's going on the gimbal and living there with the gimbal itself being on or off a tripod. Entrances, exits, tracking and some general static duty will be it's only role.

S1H, tripod only, dedicated to anything requiring 30 min+ static video.

Pair of S1R's for principally stills, but also some B roll video.

Job done for me! I don't 'need' anything else and won't be doing anything else in 2023.

Beyond that, any changes might be to those S1R's, but more because I fancy it than need it, ie, all actual needs, already fulfilled.

Seems like a very pro setup. I don't think the intention of Bloom was to promote manual focus, but when you have endless setting to have good results, it defeats the purpose. In your setup it would seems wise to limit those situations. With so many angles, you're bound to get something. Anyway, sound is more important.

[Django]

9 hours ago, John Matthews said:

It would seem there's an unhealthy paranoia around focus in general. Talk to a YouTuber and they'd say it's the most important point on a camera with seemingly higher standards than Hollywood... for YouTube. It's a strange world we live in.

Its quite logical really, most Youtubers shoot solo so they value things like face/eye AF. Whereas Hollywood uses manual glass and DPs have dedicated focus pullers. AF is not at all necessary.

What's "manual autofocus" by the way?

[newfoundmass]

4 hours ago, Django said:

Its quite logical really, most Youtubers shoot solo so they value things like face/eye AF. Whereas Hollywood uses manual glass and DPs have dedicated focus pullers. AF is not at all necessary.

What's "manual autofocus" by the way?

At least on Panasonic cameras you can put the camera in manual focus and then press a button to autofocus when you want to focus. I do it a lot on the S5.

[John Matthews]

4 hours ago, Django said:

What's "manual autofocus" by the way?

Philip Bloom made a video about mastering Sony video AF a few weeks back. My takeaway was: damn, that's complicated to change all the settings for every situation. He was talking about "manual AF" as a way to change all these settings for the situation. I think it was a great advertisement for manual focus though.

BTW, I think there are many YouTubers and other non-Hollywood filmmakers that still use manual focus exclusively in 2023. Many YouTubers just want that convenience though- just put the camera in front of them and film with zero AF problems, edit, produce silly thumbnail, post, answer comments... and round and round we go.

[newfoundmass]

I would never argue against better autofocus BUT...

It has made people so incredibly lazy, especially on YouTube. Little things drive me nuts, like holding up something to the camera instead of taking the time to film proper B-roll that looks more pleasing and shows us the object in more detail. People also "need" autofocus because they insist on filming wide open and if they move half an inch forwards or backwards they're out of focus. It's obnoxious. 

Okay enough ranting, haha.

[PannySVHS]

Neither do I agree against great autofocus:) I would love a 1inch 10bit, 2x T2.2 lens, with great ergos, great "manual AF", that for under 1100EUR. PDAF with great battery life and image. Pixel perfect HD up to 100p would be enough, 4K up to 30p. Great image means, GH5 quality is perfect, with own luts and with GH5 MKII's absence of sharpening.

[Al Dolega]

6 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Little things drive me nuts, like holding up something to the camera instead of taking the time to film proper B-roll that looks more pleasing and shows us the object in more detail.

This! I can't stand this trend. It seems to me  this was born of laziness and now is actually expected. Like shooting separate B-roll doesn't even occur to people anymore, since whichever Sony ZV-whatever introduced "product showcase" mode. Now people think holding something up in front of your face at F1.4 is the way it's done, and any camera that doesn't enable this is trash.

[newfoundmass]

1 hour ago, Al Dolega said:

This! I can't stand this trend. It seems to me  this was born of laziness and now is actually expected. Like shooting separate B-roll doesn't even occur to people anymore, since whichever Sony ZV-whatever introduced "product showcase" mode. Now people think holding something up in front of your face at F1.4 is the way it's done, and any camera that doesn't enable this is trash.

There's a lot of things you can criticize the YouTube crowd for but these are the things that bother me most. I get that they are an important target for camera marketing and profitability, but it does feel like they've played an oversized role in the direction camera companies have been taking and that's frustrating. All it has done is enabled laziness and stunted creativity. 

I'm sure as more people get their hands on the S5ii we'll see more "comparisons" between it and other cameras where people will do the same stupid tests where they jump in and out of frame, and if it doesn't stick to them like the Sony cameras do they'll devote several minutes to it even though it will function perfectly for what 99% of people need. Meanwhile legitimate issues, such as the over processing in the non-log picture profiles, will get significantly less attention (notice how none of the folks that got early copies of the camera mentioned this at all and it wasn't brought up until actual customers got their hands on it?)

[MrSMW]

8 hours ago, John Matthews said:

that's complicated to change all the settings for every situation

For my needs, that is the perfect example of the tools getting in the way of the job.

It’s another reason why I like things such as auto ISO and auto WB.

Not because I am lazy and do not appreciate the craft, but because I am not Hollywood, but a one man band with no second take option.

Ultimately, it is compromise.

16 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Seems like a very pro setup

There are a couple of alternatives that could work equally as well, but as per my previous statement above, a big part of the equation is the tools not getting in the way. At least as much as possible.

If Panasonic had not brought in PDAF with the S5ii, I would have moved to Sony which was my personal needs next best set up.

Still humming and hawwing over whether to get battery grips for my S1R’s because whilst they were OK with my previous f2 Sigmas, ergonomically not so great with my new f1.4 lineup…

 

[Django]

Sounds like some of you have been on Panasonic too long. Soon you're going to be nostalgic about DFD contrast AF. j/k

9 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Philip Bloom made a video about mastering Sony video AF a few weeks back. My takeaway was: damn, that's complicated to change all the settings for every situation. He was talking about "manual AF" as a way to change all these settings for the situation. I think it was a great advertisement for manual focus though.

He's done videos about how to master DPAF way back during C100 days. And he's right, just like for photography, AF is a tool that demands technique and control. I have an entire camera configuration and method for video AF. I don't believe the camera should ever be in full control of AF, but rather the other way around. Sure many video AF noobs often just rely on auto subject detection but that is not recommended on a pro level. Even the smartest AI can't guess what you want in focus. The operator should always be in control, even when using latest-gen AF.

[John Matthews]

4 minutes ago, Django said:

He's done videos about how to master DPAF way back during C100 days. And he's right, just like for photography, AF is a tool that demands technique and control. I have an entire camera configuration and method for video AF. I don't believe the camera should ever be in full control of AF, but rather the other way around. Sure many video AF noobs often just rely on auto subject detection but that is not recommended on a pro level. Even the smartest AI can't guess what you want in focus. The operator should always be in control, even when using latest-gen AF.

To do it right, you're going to need lots of testing in hopes of finding the right balance for the right situation, make notes, and save to custom settings. Sounds incredibly tedious. Manual tracking can be a real bitch at f/1.2 or longer lenses and I think that's the case to use it in; otherwise MF. None of the manufacturers really give detailed info on their AF algorithms; hence, they will continue to remain convoluted and obscure for noobs and pros alike. The argument to use AF is to think about other stuff, but you can only do it when it works. There will always be that anxiety that the camera will screw it up. With MF, at least you know why- you're the culprit.

[Django]

7 hours ago, John Matthews said:

To do it right, you're going to need lots of testing in hopes of finding the right balance for the right situation, make notes, and save to custom settings. Sounds incredibly tedious. Manual tracking can be a real bitch at f/1.2 or longer lenses and I think that's the case to use it in; otherwise MF. None of the manufacturers really give detailed info on their AF algorithms; hence, they will continue to remain convoluted and obscure for noobs and pros alike. The argument to use AF is to think about other stuff, but you can only do it when it works. There will always be that anxiety that the camera will screw it up. With MF, at least you know why- you're the culprit.

I don't find it tedious or convoluted at all, you just have to learn your AF system, set it up in an intuitive way that works for you and practice. After a while it becomes second nature and can become a very powerful tool. A big part of using AF is also knowing when to use it and when to disengage it, I always have a dedicated button to toggle it on/off. Of course it helps how reliable your AF system actually is, if it randomly hunts or switches to another subject, you are screwed. Again that's why subject detection isn't always the best approach. That said I do shoot MF all the time on manual glass, my FS7 and BMD cams. Hate it for handheld run & gun, love it for controlled scenes / static tripod shots. I do like to shoot wide open on fast primes so yeah critical focus is always a concern of mine. YMMV.

[Django]

Speaking of AF but getting back to the S5II, there are couple nice rack focus shots in @hyalinejim footage. The AF is a tad too quick but surely that's a setting but the transition is fluid and decisive. No stepping or pumping which is nice. I'm assuming it was done using tap to focus?

[hyalinejim]

2 hours ago, Django said:

I'm assuming it was done using tap to focus?

I think it was a case where the camera identified 2 or 3 humans correctly and then I moved the D-pad to switch between subjects. You could also tap on the LCD in that situation. 

However there are other situations where the AF switches itself back and forth between human subjects, seemingly at random. It might be more prevalent in low light, not sure yet. I think Panasonic could work on this a bit. I would prefer that human AF stays on the same subject until the user selects another subject, regardless of who is closer to the cam.

A subject-style AF in the Canon style would also be welcome. If the human subject walks offscreen the AF shifts to the background, which looks wrong. 

 

 

 

[Beritar]

On 2/3/2023 at 12:55 PM, PannySVHS said:

I liked all the outdoor shots from the GH6 better:) More sublte tones, skin without the pinkness of the S5. Good test, thank you for posting. ISO640 is not even Dual Gain, right? Still GH6 is performing lovely. But GH6 should have had PDAF and the quality of S5 IBIS! Well..

I hope you will find this test useful : 
 

 

[newfoundmass]

30 minutes ago, Beritar said:

I hope you will find this test useful : 
 

 

Thank you! Quick question/comment though: I've never had a problem with the S5 being so jittery on the y-axis like it is in your clips. I've used the kit lens, which doesn't have OIS, and the 24-105mm, which does, for the last year. What lens did you use?