Panasonic S5 II (What does Panasonic have up their sleeve?)

[92F]

Yes,  probably APSC is better for you but a little less easy or friendly

[Thpriest]

16 hours ago, FS670ES said:

 

1. I've read that S5 II has problems with human detection / tracking when there is more than one person in the frame and it starts to jump even if we try to force it to track one particular person. Is there a way to somehow lock focusing on the selected person ? Or the only way is to disable human detection and revert to zone / single focus point ?

2. If I would record in 10 bit in flat profile then how much I can be affected by banding in this situation ? Generally how easy is to get into banding issue or is it overblown and only affects users who push footage too hard ?

3. Bonus question is how eye AF works in stills ? I don't have huge requirements. Lately I tested Fuji X-S20 with my old XF 35 f1.4 and mostly I was happy with eye AF apart from situation when my kids moved faster. 

I would be grateful for some insights.

 

1. This is a problem. I imagine they’ll fix it as it wasn’t a problem on the S5 (the S5 would stick to one individual but it’d be sheer luck if they were in focus).

2. Never seen banding but I don’t pixel peep.

3. It works quite well. Not quite as good as Sony or Canon from what I’ve seen

[MrSMW]

Ditto all of the ☝️

Some folks read too many YouTube comments or even opinions from certain channels that are often based on diddly squat.

Never had banding or AF issues with my S5ii. For video, it’s a f**king excellent piece of kit and way above most folks needs or skills.

And for the price, silly value.

[FS670ES]

Thanks for the responses. I just wanted to double check as I don't have possibility to test camera myself. Only had option to hold it in store and I couldn't take test footage but first contact was pleasurable. It was nicer to hold than Nikon Z6 and due to fantastic discounts now I started to think. I already returned two new Fuji X-S20 due to the manufacturing defects and I don't know if I want to stay with them if quality control is so bad. AF although better is still lacking especially in video.

My first question is not even a problem compared to Fuji which doesn't have any kind of tracking in video mode till this day. I have only tested new Sony models and if Panasonic is somehow closer to that kind of performance in stills / video then it's great for me.

Like @MrSMW mentioned for the price it's silly value and I think I will give it a go.

[Beritar]

For those who are interested by the difference of the fine details rendering (internal recording) between the S1 and the S5II in 5,9K.

V-Log, ISO 4000, sharpness and NR at 0, internal recording, 10 bits, same lens, same settings :

The S1 has at least the same level of detail but looks more organic. The S5II on the contrary, has rougher edges. 


Natural, ISO 1250, sharpness and NR at -5, internal recording, 10 bits, same lens, same settings :



This time the difference is much worse with the standard profiles, it looks like smartphone footage, of course there are more details than on smartphone (even with 8K smartphone), but they are really over-sharpened.

On the S5II, I never use 4K and C4K because they are even worse, especially with the standard profiles.
But using the 5,9K/6K or Open Gate mode decrease the IBIS performance, it's very noticeable while walking (of course ambassasors never test the IBIS with these modes).
I really hope the rumored S1II and S1HII will improve the video engine of the S5II.

 

[kye]

22 minutes ago, Beritar said:

For those who are interested by the difference of the fine details rendering (internal recording) between the S1 and the S5II in 5,9K.

V-Log, ISO 4000, sharpness and NR at 0, internal recording, 10 bits, same lens, same settings :

The S1 has at least the same level of detail but looks more organic. The S5II on the contrary, has rougher edges. 


Natural, ISO 1250, sharpness and NR at -5, internal recording, 10 bits, same lens, same settings :



This time the difference is much worse with the standard profiles, it looks like smartphone footage, of course there are more details than on smartphone (even with 8K smartphone), but they are really over-sharpened.

On the S5II, I never use 4K and C4K because they are even worse, especially with the standard profiles.
But using the 5,9K/6K or Open Gate mode decrease the IBIS performance, it's very noticeable while walking (of course ambassasors never test the IBIS with these modes).
I really hope the rumored S1II and S1HII will improve the video engine of the S5II.

 

Fascinating comparison.

How do they compare if you blur the S5 to match the sharpness of the S1?

I read a thread on Reddit some time ago asking if people should use sharpening, and maybe half of the replies were people saying that most of the time they actually add a very slight blur to the footage (and the context of the thread was REDRAW, so no in-camera sharpening at all) and that adding any sharpening runs the risk of looking like video.

I just about laughed out loud, because deliberately blurring your footage is against the religion of most YT film-makers, but secretly the pros are doing the opposite.

After working out that careful softening of footage is a valid and desirable part of colour grading, I became far less concerned when 4K footage was sharpened in-camera.  I suspect the image would be better without the sharpening, but if it is sharpened and then compressed in-camera, and then you're softening it in post then you're actually softening the edges of the compression artefacts too, which should make the image better and not worse.  

TLDR; the pros subtly blur footage so don't be afraid of it; and if a camera is too sharp then try blurring it and only evaluate the image after you've created the desired sharpness.

[Al Dolega]

The non-log profiles in my S5IIX do have a bit of that gross cellphone-like edge sharpening. Some people have blamed this on the addition of PDAF, citing Panasonic's past statements about PDAF affecting picture quality, but I don't see how that could affect the picture globally, I would think that would only affect the phase pixels.

Seems to me that this could only have to do with the new processing that they touted at release, as part of the "new" L2 partnership with Leica. Which if Leica is actually responsible for grossness, is surprising given their historical tradition for natural image quality.

I've only used V-Log for years now so luckily it doesn't really affect me, and I haven't noticed a difference in my S5IIX footage.

The B-Raw implementation on the new cameras is better, so there is some small compensation there.

[Beritar]

18 minutes ago, Al Dolega said:

The non-log profiles in my S5IIX do have a bit of that gross cellphone-like edge sharpening. Some people have blamed this on the addition of PDAF, citing Panasonic's past statements about PDAF affecting picture quality, but I don't see how that could affect the picture globally, I would think that would only affect the phase pixels.

Seems to me that this could only have to do with the new processing that they touted at release, as part of the "new" L2 partnership with Leica. Which if Leica is actually responsible for grossness, is surprising given their historical tradition for natural image quality.

I've only used V-Log for years now so luckily it doesn't really affect me, and I haven't noticed a difference in my S5IIX footage.

The B-Raw implementation on the new cameras is better, so there is some small compensation there.

Agreed, it is not because PDAF because the external BRAW is flawless.

However, unlike you, I see the difference with the first S cameras almost each time, maybe  because I use big screen with high resolution, I also crop a lot inside my 6K video to make some effects.
Yes V-log is less impacted than the standard profiles like you can see in the comparison, but for me it still not as good, it also has more spatial chroma noise reduction even in V-log. 

[Beritar]

1 hour ago, kye said:

Fascinating comparison.

How do they compare if you blur the S5 to match the sharpness of the S1?

I read a thread on Reddit some time ago asking if people should use sharpening, and maybe half of the replies were people saying that most of the time they actually add a very slight blur to the footage (and the context of the thread was REDRAW, so no in-camera sharpening at all) and that adding any sharpening runs the risk of looking like video.

I just about laughed out loud, because deliberately blurring your footage is against the religion of most YT film-makers, but secretly the pros are doing the opposite.

After working out that careful softening of footage is a valid and desirable part of colour grading, I became far less concerned when 4K footage was sharpened in-camera.  I suspect the image would be better without the sharpening, but if it is sharpened and then compressed in-camera, and then you're softening it in post then you're actually softening the edges of the compression artefacts too, which should make the image better and not worse.  

TLDR; the pros subtly blur footage so don't be afraid of it; and if a camera is too sharp then try blurring it and only evaluate the image after you've created the desired sharpness.

If you blur the S5II, it will not get the same level of details of the S1.
And vice versa, adding some sharpening on the S1 footage still make it nicer than the S5II. The S5II shows really harsher edges + more spatial chroma noise reduction, nothing comparable to when you add in camera sharpening in the S1 or when you add sharpening in post in Premiere or Resolve. I don't understand why Panasonic messed up their internal video engine like this, they were so close to perfect before.
I don't want my image to be soft, I want details, but organic details, unprocessed. 
If I want a soft image, I still can shot in 1080P and upscale it.
This is where I'm lost when I see some people buying 6K or 8K camera to finally destroy most of the fine details to look like 1080P footage

I think the S1 has a really good balance between organic and sharp. For me it is still one of the most underated hybrid camera.
The case of cameras like the S1H are different, they don't blur anything digitally, and while they make the image softer for both photo and video, they are most of the time free from moiré while still having a lot of details.

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, Beritar said:

The case of cameras like the S1H are different, they don't blur anything digitally, and while they make the image softer for both photo and video, they are most of the time free from moiré while still having a lot of details.

My S1H is better at everything over my S5ii, stills and video, except outright AF capability and size/weight, the latter of which is not an issue to me.

[kye]

8 hours ago, Beritar said:

If you blur the S5II, it will not get the same level of details of the S1.

IDK, it doesn't look too bad to me - especially considering the extreme level of pixel peeing going on here:

By the time you're viewing this at 1:1 on a UHD display after you've exported the footage, I'd seriously doubt there's a meaningful difference to it.

8 hours ago, Beritar said:

I don't want my image to be soft, I want details, but organic details, unprocessed. 
If I want a soft image, I still can shot in 1080P and upscale it.

When you apply a blur to the footage, the first thing that it does is to reverse any sharpening, then when you apply more it starts pushing it into what people might think of as soft.

The mathematics of blurring and sharpening are opposite.  Blurring is literally "un-sharpening".  To get more technical, both operations adjust the frequency response of the image by adjusting the high-frequencies in the image.

Think of it like a WB, if the image is too warm then you make it more blue, but the image doesn't instantly become blue.  The reason it doesn't become blue instantly is because it has to cancel out the warm tint first, and only after that is cancelled out will the image become blue.  Applying a blur is like doing a sharpening balance, where you un-sharpen to bring the image back to a more neutral place.

[John Matthews]

16 hours ago, Beritar said:

Natural, ISO 1250, sharpness and NR at -5, internal recording, 10 bits, same lens, same settings :

Is this H.264 or H.265 footage? On Panasonic, H.265 messes more with the image IMO. I remember the GH6 having crushed blacks in H.265.

[Beritar]

2 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Is this H.264 or H.265 footage? On Panasonic, H.265 messes more with the image IMO. I remember the GH6 having crushed blacks in H.265.

You can't use H264 with 5,9K/6K/Open Gate.
I don't see any crushed black on the GH6 between H265 or H264, the crushed black is only with Prores, it's because the levels are not set correctly.

[Beritar]

14 hours ago, MrSMW said:

My S1H is better at everything over my S5ii, stills and video, except outright AF capability and size/weight, the latter of which is not an issue to me.

Yes the image is much nicer in my opinion. But outside of the AF, the IBIS of the S5II is also better, I can almost walk with the S5II with my 85mm S, you really can't on the S1 and S1H. And some features are great on the S5II too, like the zoom while recording.
I hope the new S1II/S1HII will get the best of the old and new Gen.

[Beritar]

7 hours ago, kye said:

IDK, it doesn't look too bad to me - especially considering the extreme level of pixel peeing going on here:

By the time you're viewing this at 1:1 on a UHD display after you've exported the footage, I'd seriously doubt there's a meaningful difference to it.

When you apply a blur to the footage, the first thing that it does is to reverse any sharpening, then when you apply more it starts pushing it into what people might think of as soft.

The mathematics of blurring and sharpening are opposite.  Blurring is literally "un-sharpening".  To get more technical, both operations adjust the frequency response of the image by adjusting the high-frequencies in the image.

Think of it like a WB, if the image is too warm then you make it more blue, but the image doesn't instantly become blue.  The reason it doesn't become blue instantly is because it has to cancel out the warm tint first, and only after that is cancelled out will the image become blue.  Applying a blur is like doing a sharpening balance, where you un-sharpen to bring the image back to a more neutral place.

Each time I apply blur to my footage on the S5II, it becomes unatural, some textures look good and some don't. The sharpness is not the only issue, like I said. The S5II/X have more spatial chroma noise reduction, leading to loss of colour detail, like in skin texture and foliage, about a value of 20~25 in Resolve is required to match the S1/S5 chroma detail to S5iiX.

But yes some people are prefectly fine with the internal output of the S5II, especially if they don't crop a lot inside their videos, but to my eyes, the S5II internal recording is really not as good as the S1, S5 and S1H.
I am not even talking about the standard profiles in 4K or C4K, one of the worst image I've seen between every Panasonic cameras I owned (almost all since the GH4), the difference with the S1,S5,S1H is huge, very excessive sharpening and smoothed out details (I think I've posted some videos about the issue).

[John Matthews]

1 hour ago, Beritar said:

You can't use H264 with 5,9K/6K/Open Gate.
I don't see any crushed black on the GH6 between H265 or H264, the crushed black is only with Prores, it's because the levels are not set correctly.

This is what Cined said:

Personally, I never noticed it that much.

[MrSMW]

4 hours ago, Beritar said:

difference with the S1,S5,S1H is huge

I haven’t found it huge or even that significant, but the output from the S1H is definitely ‘nicer’ and more ha, ‘cinematic’.

Has to be the combo of that different sensor and the OLPF.

I have been giving it some thought just how I might use my pair this year and had settled on S1H + battery grip + 70-200 on tripod with S5ii + 28-70 on roaming duty, but I’m thinking now I might just pick up a battery grip for the S5ii, take the grip off the S1H and then swap the lenses around so the S1H becomes my run & gun.

6k 30p for the S1H and the S5ii can do 4k 60p for the long static stuff and tracking shots. I could and even perhaps should, use 4k or even 6k 30p for the static stuff, but I’d forget to switch and find that every time I wanted some slo mo, I had no suitable footage, heat of the moment and all that!

[IronFilm]

On 12/3/2023 at 2:47 AM, Thpriest said:

If Lumix wants to blow everyone out of the water ( now they have decent AF) they should release a S1H2 and a GH7 with some kind of ND. The S2 would be fine being a high res photo centric version without ND.

Yeah the GH1 was groundbreaking itself, as were the ones after it, the GH4 and even GH5. 

But the competition is so hot now, GH7 needs something "big" in it. And 8K or raw won't do it. 

Internal NDs are what we need! (and/or SDI out.... please??)

[kye]

8 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Yeah the GH1 was groundbreaking itself, as were the ones after it, the GH4 and even GH5. 

But the competition is so hot now, GH7 needs something "big" in it. And 8K or raw won't do it. 

Internal NDs are what we need! (and/or SDI out.... please??)

The GH6 was definitely a swing for the fences, although unfortunately not a massive hit like the previous attempts, but it did show that Panasonic were still willing to aim big and put in the time and resources.  I also think that having the new sensor from the GH6 might help with the GH7, and even if they didn't re-use the GH6 sensor in the GH7, the fact they went through the whole exercise of partnering with a provider, designing it, manufacturing it, and putting it out into a new product might mean there are less barriers to them doing it again for the GH7.  When they engaged the sensor manufacturer they might have even signed up for a series of sensors to be delivered over a period, so some sort of incredible GH7 sensor might even be quite a way through the sausage machine already.

The proof is in the pudding, of course, but if the GH6 had failed because they didn't even try to be innovative then it would have put the GH7 in a very different context than what actually did happen.

[kye]

Just now, kye said:

But the competition is so hot now, GH7 needs something "big" in it. And 8K or raw won't do it. 

Just thinking further about this, I think that the competition is so hot right now, but for things that have been over-delivered.  Upping the resolution from 6K wouldn't be a game changer because it's already more than most people need.  RAW can't be improved on.  

But, do we think that cameras are perfect now?  Hell no!

So, I think there's tonnes of room for them to make it a huge release, simply by focusing on the things that the entire industry (apart from perhaps ARRI) seem to have put in the too-hard basket.

I've been watching Twin Peaks (shot in 4:3 35mm film) on Paramount+ which seems to be streaming in 480p or something, but it just looks incredible regardless.  If motion picture film from 1990 being streamed in 480p can look better than a $10K 8K RAW shooting FF camera, then I'd say there's lots of stuff left that can be improved.