Panasonic S5 II (What does Panasonic have up their sleeve?)

[MrSMW]

3 hours ago, jgharding said:

mainly due to the S5 ii's lack of OLPF and moiré issues in interviews.

Have you tried using a 1/8th mist?

That has been my go to throughout ‘23 on the S5ii and no issues.

The S1H does just have a (slightly) nicer image but the 1/8th evens it up a little and seems to fix most if not all moire issues.

I might just get a battery grip for the S5ii and sell the S1H battery grip and then I can flip around their use ie make the S1H my run & gun workhorse and the S5ii can do static and gimbal.

That should fix my use case dilemma of having them currently in my non-preferred roles…

[Mark Romero 2]

On 2/7/2024 at 7:10 AM, jgharding said:

The hope is that an S1H ii would add the AF, with some improvements, and hopefully not add any bugs LOL
 

In a perfect world, I think the autofocus would be the CDAF / DFD autofocus that Panasonic always PROMISED us it would be, but never delivered. It's too bad, because when my S1 or (original) S5 actually DOES nail focus, it looks REALLY nice and smooth. It almost has an "ease in" quality to it where it slows down just enough before landing in focus.

Of course, those times are few and far between. 

Some of my old Sony aps-c cameras had that same kind of feature when focusing on subjects not in the center of the frame (and I think that made the AF system revert back to CDAF, but don't want to swear by that).

Going on a rant here: I think one thing that bugs me about (contemporary) Sony cameras is that the autofocus is SOOOO good, a lot of people don't bother to slow down the AF speed, which I think it might make it smoother / more natural. Combine that with the focus breathing and it's something that kind of just irks me. Rant over.

I would be interested to know what it is that still bothers you about the S5IIX though. Is it just mostly the moire? 

How do you find the image quality overall?

Lament: I know I should be moving toward Sony, but since I still do majority photos (with flash), the best camera for me is probably the a7S III, which isn't a bad camera, just that the FX3 or even the FX30 might make more sense in some video situations.

[Mark Romero 2]

On 1/24/2024 at 8:20 PM, Walter H said:

Any thoughts/opinions on adding an OLPF to our beloved Panny's? Seriously looking at this option from Kolari for my S1.

Context: I'm a hybrid shooter doing almost as much stills work as video professionally. Currently with an S1 and an S5. I've been repeatedly hit with troublesome moiré particularly when doing portrait work and have considered selling off my S1 to pick up an S1h to compliment and diversify explicitly for this image-making issue. 

Purportedly, their OLPF is more effective than what is in the S1h. I could do this and still be well below the kit cost vs what I could get for my S1 vs. the cost of a lightly used S1h would be. My S1 is now out of warrantee - not worried about voiding anything. I talked with one of their engineers today and the white balance shift is lens specific and quite slight but they felt they had to put a strong/conservative disclaimer on the website. One-year warrantee. I could ditch my 1/8 black mist when filming with the 24-105. Etc. 

Struggling to find a downside here. 

One downside is I think that you will be spending $700 on a modification for a camera that you would be lucky to re-sell for about US $800. (I got a trade-in quote from MPB for like $535 or something like that. Gonna pass on that. Thanks.)

I don't think getting the OLPF mod would help with resale value (might even hurt) as anyone shooting photos would probably balk at the idea of buying a camera with a third-party OLPF installed.

Of course, not a problem if you plan on holding on to the S1 long term. But with the second-gen S1 / S1H / S1R "likely" to come out this year, it might not be a great idea.

All this is just my long and convuluted way of saying that the 1/8th Black Pro Mist filter doesn't seem like that bad of a solution.

[Walter H]

On 2/8/2024 at 3:00 PM, Mark Romero 2 said:

One downside is I think that you will be spending $700 on a modification for a camera that you would be lucky to re-sell for about US $800. (I got a trade-in quote from MPB for like $535 or something like that. Gonna pass on that. Thanks.)

I don't think getting the OLPF mod would help with resale value (might even hurt) as anyone shooting photos would probably balk at the idea of buying a camera with a third-party OLPF installed.

Of course, not a problem if you plan on holding on to the S1 long term. But with the second-gen S1 / S1H / S1R "likely" to come out this year, it might not be a great idea.

All this is just my long and convuluted way of saying that the 1/8th Black Pro Mist filter doesn't seem like that bad of a solution.

I appreciate this. 

I have considered the (non-)resale value of the S1 and S5 already. (It is stunning how little these bodies are fetching used for such incredible image and, for the S1, build quality. I have been thinking of this investment in the S1 as an opportunity to bridge for the next year or two when these second gen S-series cameras have been out a while and their prices moderate. 

I do have a 1/8th Black Pro Mist and that has helped at times in some critical moments, BUT it makes the peaking for manual focus in video with the S1 almost disappear, especially in Vlog.

Others have already nudged me hard toward picking up a used S1H and I am tempted in large degree as the peaking issue once you hit record just isn't one with that body. So I may wait until v2's announcement when I expect even more used S1H's will hit the market. 

And, other than screen, better peaking, TC support, I am not seeing many compelling reasons to upgrade from my S1 body to an S1H. Some of the ergo improvements for video are a meh when using it for event and documentation photography - bulkier body & more visual weight (and more just weight). So.... on the fence but appreciate the thoughts. 

The last point is that they have offered me a $100 discount to the mod, so that helps a bit too.

In other news, I'm absolutely ditching the S5 body and picked up a Fuji X-H2s for the role as a lighter weight hybrid cam and I'm really pleased with it. So the consideration of the S1/S1H is in complement to that camera as well (and vice versa).

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, Walter H said:

picked up a Fuji X-H2s for the role as a lighter weight hybrid cam

Probably what I'd be using if I wasn't using what I am now.

 

[Mark Romero 2]

1 hour ago, Walter H said:

I have been thinking of this investment in the S1 as an opportunity to bridge for the next year or two when these second gen S-series cameras have been out a while and their prices moderate. 

That makes sense. Unfortunately for me, my brain un-friended logic a long time ago.

1 hour ago, Walter H said:

I do have a 1/8th Black Pro Mist and that has helped at times in some critical moments, BUT it makes the peaking for manual focus in video with the S1 almost disappear, especially in Vlog.

Uhhh... that's not good. I don't know if this will help, but I have heard people say something about using a monochrome (preview) lut or using a monochrome picture profile (for jpg shooting, at least) to get better peaking...

1 hour ago, Walter H said:

In other news, I'm absolutely ditching the S5 body and picked up a Fuji X-H2s for the role as a lighter weight hybrid cam and I'm really pleased with it.

I am still a bit ignorant about Fuji cameras in general, so would love to hear your thoughts on the X-H2s compared to the S5 (origianal) you are selling.

[Walter H]

2 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

I am still a bit ignorant about Fuji cameras in general, so would love to hear your thoughts on the X-H2s compared to the S5 (origianal) you are selling.

At risk of cluttering up the thread (but it seems these thread can range a bit from their titles), the X-H2s immediately resolves my main complaints with the S5: namely, the intermediately smaller body that never fit my hand well and a clatchy, miserable feeling mechanical shutter that makes my heart weep when I engage it (@MrSMW knows). The X-H2s feels wonderfully in my hand (just as the S1 does considering two quite differently sized bodies), it feels better built than the S5, and the shutter mechanism makes my angels sing. To me, much better than the X-S20 that I had intended to pick up...

I don't have enough experience processing RAWs form both cameras yet to know how easily the I can process them to have a consistent look, but I'm not worried. I have worked with enough Flog and Flog2 footage to feel confident that as long as I have my white balance close, I can get a good match with Vlog footage. If I set each camera to a color chart, then I'm not worried whatsoever - not for the work that I do anyway.

More additional context specific to me: for some of the product photography that I do, I really missed the ability to easily tether with Capture One (Panasonics don't) and having a bit more depth-of-field from an APSC sensor has its advantages too. 

I may have something more useful to add once I've worked with them both together over the next few months. 

Oh, and good idea on the monochrome preview lut. I'll experiment with that.

[Walter H]

5 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Probably what I'd be using if I wasn't using what I am now.

 

Actually..., really? You seem so "Nikon other than Panasonic" oriented - for good reasons. When I switched to full-frame (from Fuji), I expected to go Nikon but once I held the S1 and played with Vlog, that was it. Right choice at the time, but unsure I would do the same now (at least once the Z6v3 is released).

[Mark Romero 2]

3 hours ago, Walter H said:

but unsure I would do the same now (at least once the Z6v3 is released).

That is one camera I am looking forward to.

[IronFilm]

13 hours ago, Walter H said:

I do have a 1/8th Black Pro Mist and that has helped at times in some critical moments, BUT it makes the peaking for manual focus in video with the S1 almost disappear, especially in Vlog.

Is there an option to shoot in vlog but monitor in rec709? Probably your peaking will work better then? (am guessing here, no experience with the Panasonic L Mount cameras, but this is how it functions on some other cameras) 

Or....  (and I know @MrSMW would HATE this suggestion 😅 but maybe it works for you @Walter H?), shoot vlog but output rec709 over HDMI (am pretty certain the S1 can do this??) then do the peaking with the external monitor (little 3.5" external monitors exist?). That's another process I've heard of people doing to get better results with peaking. 

9 hours ago, Walter H said:

More additional context specific to me: for some of the product photography that I do, I really missed the ability to easily tether with Capture One (Panasonics don't) and having a bit more depth-of-field from an APSC sensor has its advantages too. 

I know the built in photo stacking feature in the Panasonic G9 is very powerful for when doing macro shots and needing more DoF, doesn't the Panasonic S1 have this too? Or is it of no benefit for your style of shooting? 

 

[MrSMW]

12 hours ago, Walter H said:

and a clatchy, miserable feeling mechanical shutter that makes my heart weep when I engage it (@MrSMW knows)

He knows and he weeps for and with you.

9 hours ago, Walter H said:

Actually..., really? You seem so "Nikon other than Panasonic" oriented - for good reasons

Still good with it. What I meant was if Covid had not come along, I would have progressed from XH1 (one of my fav cams of all time) + XT3 to all XT4’s instead of S5. Then I would have moved on to XH2S’s for video and XH2’s for stills with some hybrid crossover between the two otherwise identical cameras.

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Or....  (and I know @MrSMW would HATE this suggestion 😅 but maybe it works for you @Walter H?), shoot vlog but output rec709 over HDMI

Spits loudly in the corner.

[Walter H]

10 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Is there an option to shoot in vlog but monitor in rec709? Probably your peaking will work better then? (am guessing here, no experience with the Panasonic L Mount cameras, but this is how it functions on some other cameras) 

Or....  (and I know @MrSMW would HATE this suggestion 😅 but maybe it works for you @Walter H?), shoot vlog but output rec709 over HDMI (am pretty certain the S1 can do this??) then do the peaking with the external monitor (little 3.5" external monitors exist?). That's another process I've heard of people doing to get better results with peaking. 

Yes, I do use an 5" SmallHD monitor regularly and always when I am planning to manual focus. I use a monitoring LUT (but haven't thought to try with b&w) and that with the peaking of the S1 and the focus assist of the monitor gets the job done. There is something with the S1 that I have seen others mention as well over the years: peaking looks clear and strong and as soon as I press record, it dips about 30%. The use of a monitoring LUT helps me see the edges of things a bit better but does not improve or correct this peaking "dip" issue. The Pro Mist only accentuated this odd negative. A monitor with peaking/focus assist as well makes the difference.

10 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I know the built in photo stacking feature in the Panasonic G9 is very powerful for when doing macro shots and needing more DoF, doesn't the Panasonic S1 have this too? Or is it of no benefit for your style of shooting? 

 

The S1 does have this feature and I experimented with it quite a bit. For some subjects, works a treat - genuinely cannot fault it. But is creates jpeg's only and if what you are photographing has a lot of fine details, well, too many artifacts and oddities were showing up. Therefore I had to old school focus stack and blend in post, which works great and I would have a dng or tiff to work up in post, but it is just steps and time. 

[MrSMW]

3 hours ago, Walter H said:

The Pro Mist only accentuated this odd negative

Probably because it reduces contrast?

[Walter H]

56 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Probably because it reduces contrast?

Yes, that is exactly right. 

To be clear, I was only using the Pro Mist 1/8th to knock the digital edge off a touch was the 24-105 and since switching to Resolve, I simply do that in post if I feel the need. 

The reason for the OLPF conversion for the S1 in my mind was for stills and portrait work. I've rarely if ever had much of a moire issue in video. But I won't knock the benefit there too.

[IronFilm]

8 hours ago, Walter H said:

The S1 does have this feature and I experimented with it quite a bit. For some subjects, works a treat - genuinely cannot fault it. But is creates jpeg's only and if what you are photographing has a lot of fine details, well, too many artifacts and oddities were showing up. Therefore I had to old school focus stack and blend in post, which works great and I would have a dng or tiff to work up in post, but it is just steps and time. 

Isn't there a middle ground between making an JPEG vs doing it 100% yourself manually old school? 

I thought you could get a Panasonic camera to spit out a whole series of raw images. Thus you get all the benefits of doing it yourself in post, but with the convenience of a single button push to capture everything on set in that take. 

[Walter H]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

Isn't there a middle ground between making an JPEG vs doing it 100% yourself manually old school? 

I thought you could get a Panasonic camera to spit out a whole series of raw images. Thus you get all the benefits of doing it yourself in post, but with the convenience of a single button push to capture everything on set in that take. 

Yeah, I think we spoke past one another. 

The S1 focus brackets raw images nicely with one press of the shutter. Lots of control over the number of images, their depth & step. Easy to dump that sequence into PS or Affinity, etc. and render a blended image. That's what I was referring to as "old school" - doing the post-capture stacking in a software later on. 

It's the focus stacking feature that renders in camera a single jpeg that I was having issues with in terms of unwanted artifacts. Perhaps the processing in the G9 is improved? Granted I have been working with challenging, detailed material.

The process of focus bracketing is fine and I've no complaints in doing it. It's also nice when I can avoid it altogether. 

[PannySVHS]

Anyone really loving the colour they are getting from their S line cameras? I liked the results filming in HLG better than in VLog, which I got after grading.

[kye]

14 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

Anyone really loving the colour they are getting from their S line cameras? I liked the results filming in HLG better than in VLog, which I got after grading.

I decided with my GH5 that HLG was a better log space than V-Log, because in HLG the amount of bits for the midtones and saturation were higher (and therefore suffered less from the compression).  This comes at the expense of the shadows and highlights, but these are far less important than skin-tones, so I figure I'm making a good trade-off.

[Mark Romero 2]

3 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

Anyone really loving the colour they are getting from their S line cameras? I liked the results filming in HLG better than in VLog, which I got after grading.

Curious as to how you are then converting from HLG to a Rec.709 image? (or maybe you are just monitoring / delivering in HLG???). I haven't tried HLG yet because not sure if there is a "right" way to get it in to Rec 709. (Maybe there is a CST for it in Resolve??? Or a Third-Party LUT???)

I am pretty happy with V-LOG, despite my neophyte grading skills. I usually grade in Resolve DaVinci Wide Gamut / intermediate and use the Ground Control to Rec.709 LUT. Most of my Luma and Primary corrections are done BEFORE the LUT, in the HDR panels, and for me I find it important to set the Color Space (and gamut) in the drop down menu of the HDR panel to V-LOG / V-Gamut.

(NOTE: I used to use Sony 8-bit S-LOG from aps-c sensors, so it wasn't hard to see an improvement in 10-bit V-LOG from Panasonic full frame.)

I don't normally add a film look, or get too complicated with my node tree, since my graphics card only has 8GB of video memory (RTX 2060 Super... I can easily afford something like the 4060 TI Super or whatever with 16GB video memory, but the performance on those is still so bad because of the memory bandwidth, I refuse to do it). 

Again, I am "happy" with it, and my clients seem to be fine with it, but I don't think anyone in Hollywood is gonna ring me up asking to become a Colorist forthem any time soon.

[kye]

11 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

Curious as to how you are then converting from HLG to a Rec.709 image? (or maybe you are just monitoring / delivering in HLG???). I haven't tried HLG yet because not sure if there is a "right" way to get it in to Rec 709. (Maybe there is a CST for it in Resolve??? Or a Third-Party LUT???)

HLG isn't a standard, it's more like a semi-technical marketing phrase, however, rec2100 and rec2020 are HDR standards and you can use a CST to convert them to whatever you like.  If I shoot a clip in 709 and then HLG on my GH5, then the conversion from rec2100 to 709 is pretty close to the 709 version SOOC.  Close enough that the difference is irrelevant, because you're going to want to push and pull the image in post, and those adjustments will easily override the differences out of the camera.

It's easily tested - just record a clip in HLG and then in V-LOG and use the CST to convert both to rec709 and see which input colour space / gamma is closest to the V-LOG conversion.

The better you get at colour grading, the less you care about which camera or colour space was used, as long as it's a robust and efficient codec and has colour management support.