Panasonic S5 II (What does Panasonic have up their sleeve?)

[Kubrickian]

I would recommend doing some research outside this forum then. I find these prosumer cameras all have essentially the same ‘thin’ image. Maybe it’s because they’re all using that Sony sensor? 

[Al Dolega]

I've been trying to bug Panasonic in various places to add a 60p 3:2 APS-C anamorphic mode to these cameras (or at least the X). The spec sheet shows they have the 48/50p 4:3 anamorphic mode from the S1H, so I'm hoping that 3:2 being shorter vertically, and thus using fewer lines of the sensor, would let it reach 60p. Marketing-wise this would be a great addition to the whole "shoot in 3:2 for cropping to vertical later" selling point- you would have a slo-mo option with the same aspect ratio as the full-sensor 6K open-gate mode.

That and some ~2.5-2.8K modes at higher framerates would really put these cams over the top for me. Now if the X would just get here already!

[hyalinejim]

9 hours ago, Django said:

You are the one in that thread that stated the official V-Log to V709 LUT was "half-assed"

I didn't quite say that. I said it had "a half-assed curve", and go on to explain what I mean by that (a mild contrast curve with elevated blacks where middle grey is not at the correct value). It's an easy fix for anyone who knows how to use basic colour correction techniques, which I presume you do.

Pannys colour conversion is basically sound, with the caveats that colour is not entirely accurate and that the same conversion is used for different models with different colour responses. But I'm sure that's true for Canon and Sony true.

Likewise for the rest of the thread, which is a digression into exposure technique for log in general, not just V-Log.

There's nothing particularly difficult about V-Log. I could pick the same or similar nits, I'm sure, for C and S-Log.

[hyalinejim]

12 hours ago, independent said:

Would be interested in how the image stabilization is on non native lenses, i.e., EF lenses with and without optical stab. 

 

I just had a quick look at this and it seems that when using EF lenses with the MC21 you need to turn on the IS switch on the lens in order for IBIS to work. This was a bit strange to me as I'm used to a Metabones Speedbooster where the lens IS switch has to be turned off for IBIS to work. If it's not an IS lens then you don't worry about the switch, lol, because there isn't one. Then there are two options. One is body only and this is the best:

 

The other is a weird mixture of body and lens:

 

This second option is jerky with EF lenses on an MC21 and is in no way comparable to body only. So I don't think there is a way to have both full IBIS in all directions plus whatever the lens can do.

But, I think I remember seeing some  YT reviews with Panasonic lenses where the reviewer just stuck with body only. So I would say that body only is also good enough for EF lenses.

[Django]

Hmm wonder if that means the same holds true for native lenses also? Kinda strange, usually IBIS+OIS = best stabilisation.

 I'm doing some research on L-mount lenses and it seems very few lenses even have OIS? Few zooms and zero primes.

Guess I shouldn't be too worried as Panasonics IBIS has such a good reputation..

3 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

I didn't quite say that. I said it had "a half-assed curve", and go on to explain what I mean by that (a mild contrast curve with elevated blacks where middle grey is not at the correct value). It's an easy fix for anyone who knows how to use basic colour correction techniques, which I presume you do.

Hopefully, I'd rather not have to spend time fixing the curve though.

3 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

Pannys colour conversion is basically sound, with the caveats that colour is not entirely accurate and that the same conversion is used for different models with different colour responses. But I'm sure that's true for Canon and Sony true.

Actually no, Canon & Sony offer a vast amount of conversion sets that fit just about every gamma profile / curve. So its usually just a matter of finding the one that suits your camera model. Also Canon & Sony cameras offer 3 log curves with various color matrix settings. Panasonic just seems to have "VLOG". Across all cameras, is that correct?

[hyalinejim]

1 hour ago, Django said:

Guess I shouldn't be too worried as Panasonics IBIS has such a good reputation..

I think you'll be fine because even with old manual lenses that aren't even recognised by the camera (you enter the focal length when you mount the lens) the IBIS performance seems historically to be as good as with Panny lenses using body only.

1 hour ago, Django said:

a vast amount of conversion sets that fit just about every gamma profile / curve. So its usually just a matter of finding the one that suits your camera model. Also Canon & Sony cameras offer 3 log curves with various color matrix settings

While it's true that Panasonic only offers one lut for all models, there is only one V-Log curve (except for V-Log L which is the same shape as the regular curve, just truncated at the top) and no matrix options for prosumer models (there are on the Varicam). I hear you that Sony and Canon offer a variety of transformations for different log curves and matrices, but do they offer model-specific transformations? If not, then the situation is effectively the same as for Panasonic, whereby a a transformation is offered for a given gamma and a given gamut, the only difference being there is a single gamma and gamut for V-Log and multiple gammas and gamuts for S and C-Log. This can't account for the differences in colour response between sensors. Maybe Sony and Canon cameras don't vary as much in that regard, who knows?

[Django]

1 hour ago, hyalinejim said:

I think you'll be fine because even with old manual lenses that aren't even recognised by the camera (you enter the focal length when you mount the lens) the IBIS performance seems historically to be as good as with Panny lenses using body only.

While it's true that Panasonic only offers one lut for all models, there is only one V-Log curve (except for V-Log L which is the same shape as the regular curve, just truncated at the top) and no matrix options for prosumer models (there are on the Varicam). I hear you that Sony and Canon offer a variety of transformations for different log curves and matrices, but do they offer model-specific transformations? If not, then the situation is effectively the same as for Panasonic, whereby a a transformation is offered for a given gamma and a given gamut, the only difference being there is a single gamma and gamut for V-Log and multiple gammas and gamuts for S and C-Log. This can't account for the differences in colour response between sensors. Maybe Sony and Canon cameras don't vary as much in that regard, who knows?

Canon tweaked their CS with the mirrorless line. You have the option when shooting log to choose either original or neutral.  I have tons of official C-Log transform LUTs including (non official) model-specific ones . There is quite a big resource around Slog & Clog. I don't follow Sony so closely but they have for sure tweaked and improved their CS. They also provide S-Cinetone derived from VENICE.

I guess I'm just kind of surprised that Panny, a company often touted for its cinema specs, has only got one V-Log curve. Even Fuji who's only had log curves in recent cameras has introduced a flatter FLOG2. 

So I guess my follow-up question would be how does V-Log compare to S-Log3, C-Log2 & FLog2? 

[newfoundmass]

4 hours ago, Django said:

Hmm wonder if that means the same holds true for native lenses also? Kinda strange, usually IBIS+OIS = best stabilisation.

I'm guessing that the lenses being manufactured by someone else (Canon) is probably why IBIS and OIS are not able to work together. I'm guessing the lens needs to communicate with the body, and it's hard to do that when you didn't manufacture/program the lens.

[hyalinejim]

36 minutes ago, Django said:

how does V-Log compare to S-Log3, C-Log2 & FLog2

You can compare the curves here:

http://cameramanben.github.io/LUTCalc/LUTCalc/index.html

From having a quick look it seems that V-Log curve is most like C-Log 2 and S-Log3.

37 minutes ago, Django said:

I guess I'm just kind of surprised that Panny, a company often touted for its cinema specs, has only got one V-Log curve.

Well, I guess Panasonic never needed more than one log curve. It arose with the Varicam which according to Panasonic has 14+ stops of dynamic range. If everything below that tier has less dynamic range then the V-Log curve is sufficient to contain it all.

Maybe it was different for Canon with the C100 (or whatever it was originally) and Canon Log 1 which was probably designed for 11 or 12 stops.

[Django]

CLog was developed on C300 for indeed 12 stops and CLog2/3 arrived with subsequent C300mk2/3 offering higher sensitivity. They claim up to 16 stops in CLog2 on DGO sensors. I just think its nice to have access to these various log curves depending on what scene you're shooting. The flattest curves often raise the noise floor. Which is why Canon CLog2 is only available on certain models and often only in post when shooting RAW. 

Anyways I need to find some S5ii Vlog footage to put it through the test. Hopefully some will pop up somewhere.

FWIW I've been looking through lot's of S5ii footage on YT and found some I really enjoy CS wise. I see a certain neutrality that reminds me of Leica (no surprise considering the ties and L2 image processing). I'm also a Leica M shooter so really value that CS and I think I'm seeing some of it.

Concerning lenses, does anyone here have experience with the Panny L-mount F1.8 primes ? 

I like a good set of affordable primes and read these have a focus breathing suppression design, smooth exposure and various manual focus ring settings. sounds ideal for video use!

[Al Dolega]

Pannyboy does have other conversion LUTs, they have a pack of Varicam LUTs for download somewhere. Most are more "look"-ey but I like the "Nicest" one, that or the standard V-Log LUT are usually my starting point, that or a CST in Resolve.

[hyalinejim]

1 hour ago, Django said:

Anyways I need to find some S5ii Vlog footage

What are you looking for in terms of specs and content? I don't have anything coming up that I can share but if I can shoot something for you easily I will.

[Emanuel]

You're da man here these days, Mike... LOL ;- )

[Django]

1 hour ago, hyalinejim said:

What are you looking for in terms of specs and content? I don't have anything coming up that I can share but if I can shoot something for you easily I will.

Ace, gotta love this place!

I'd like to see how the 6K 3:2 open-gate holds up, since it's 10-bit 4:2:0. And perhaps compare it to some C4K 10-bit 4:2:2. 

As for content, I'm not going to be very fussy, whatever is convenient for you. Ideally human subject to test skin tones but any type of daylight street scene would also do fine.

Many thanks in advance 🙏

[Thpriest]

The 1.8 primes are very good. I have the 24 and 50 and as far as I’m concerned they are the best af primes for video that I’ve ever had. You can control focus throw and speed and breathing is pretty well controlled. But we all have our own standards that we judge our gear by.

[Django]

@Thpriest That's what I was thinking, the 24mm & the 50mm, with crop mode those also give you 35mm & 75mm.

Speaking of which how easy is it to switch to APS-C/S35 crop mode? Can you assign a button to punch in&out?

Also I notice no stills/video switch and only 3 custom slots. So I guess no independent custom settings?

[hyalinejim]

18 minutes ago, Django said:

how easy is it to switch to APS-C/S35 crop mode

You can assign a function button (and 14 of the buttons on the body are re-assignable) to "Image Area of Video". This brings up a small overlay with three options: FULL, APSC and Pixel-Pixel. It's quite fast to switch between them. I have this function assigned to the red record button as I use the shutter to start and stop video clips.

There is a bit more noise in APSC mode, noticeable even at ISO 4000 (higher dual gain level). But the noise is mainly luma noise and is quite fine and I would say it looks filmic. For those who may be interested if you shoot in HD you can get a crop factor of 3x in pixel-pixel mode for some serious reach. You might even get away with it with a sharp lens at f8 and at base ISO 640 with good exposure.

Some graded noise comparisons for reference at ISO 4000

4K FULL:

 

4K APSC:

 

HD pixel-pixel (not normal HD)

 

 

[Django]

14 minutes ago, hyalinejim said:

You can assign a function button (and 14 of the buttons on the body are re-assignable) to "Image Area of Video". This brings up a small overlay with three options: FULL, APSC and Pixel-Pixel. It's quite fast to switch between them. I have this function assigned to the red record button as I use the shutter to start and stop video clips.

Ok so basically a two-step operation. What's pixel-pixel crop factor in 4K? Does that mean a 1:1 readout?

[hyalinejim]

3 minutes ago, Django said:

What's pixel-pixel crop factor in 4K? Does that mean a 1:1 readout?

Yes, but it's very very close to what the APSC crop is anyway. It's probably 95% of the image area of APSC. So 4K APSC has some resizing going on from a slightly bigger area of the sensor than a 1:1 4K crop.

[Parker]

@Djangoyou can also get a huge pixel-to-pixel crop mode if you're shooting in 1080p, handy in a pinch sometimes if you need some insane zoom.

Also, re: custom modes, the c3 mode let's you have an unlimited number of "virtual custom modes" so you just spin to C3 and then pick from a menu of your saved modes, I'm up to like C12 or something like that on my S1, it becomes very handy to have individual presets saved for different scenarios, I.e. Different ProRes raw or B-Raw output modes, anamorphic ibis and desqueeze settings, high frame rate modes, etc., so that you can switch very fast on a shoot and not be digging through menus. Easy to rename them too, so you're not having to memorize a number, it's nice and clean. 

Panny loves to make their cameras basically infinitely customizable. Long-holding any button on the camera will immediately bring up a full menu of all possible camera option/setting/toggles under the sun that can be used as a shortcut, very handy. Then you can save all of those unique shortcuts to different custom modes as you see fit.