Panasonic S5 II (What does Panasonic have up their sleeve?)

[newfoundmass]

9 hours ago, ade towell said:

I like the highlight roll off from the Emotive color Alexa conversion created by Sage who I've not seen around here for a while. It was specifically tuned for S5, S1 and S1H, wonder if it would need tweaking for S5ii

Where can one get this? 

[hyalinejim]

Just be aware that they will make a bit of noise, some more than others. If sound is critical (interview in a quiet room or on-camera mic) then it could be an issue. I can't use my first edition Sigma 70-200 2.8 for interviews as it's too loud.

[TomTheDP]

10 minutes ago, HockeyFan12 said:

I don't think it's intentional.

Even the P4K and P6K and Venice and A7S3III don't match perfectly. 

Must have something to do with the slightly different sensor variations and probably just lack of budget to really do things like make a custom lut for each model.

[newfoundmass]

7 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

Must have something to do with the slightly different sensor variations and probably just lack of budget to really do things like make a custom lut for each model.

I can't imagine it's budget related. Wouldn't the developers probably have their own LUT for the testing phase? It is weird. Maybe they just feel like the official LUT gets people close enough that anyone using it will be tweaking it anyway?

[hyalinejim]

I'd imagine there's a colour matrix involved in the conversion from RAW to V gamut. That's the variable they'd be tweaking for each sensor, trying to get the results close to whatever the V gamut ideal is.

But a matrix is limited in what it can do. As a hypothetical example if you get the hue for blue right then the lightness goes up, or the saturation decreases or another colour goes awry.

[Django]

44 minutes ago, hyalinejim said:

@Django and anyone else who's interested I've uploaded a bunch of very short clips here at different resolutions and crop factors to check out:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/13zSYccjrhj1WXKDNMFioxTAoQbZyuP80?usp=share_link

Many thanks! That's more than I could hope for! Already thrown a few in Resolve, looking good. Aside from the red channel but I already knew that so bringing red down a tad in hue vs sat. What lens was this shot on?

[hyalinejim]

8 minutes ago, Django said:

looking good. Aside from the red channel

Also try out this modification of the CST, and see what you think. It has the correct middle grey level and tames over-saturation a bit.

8 minutes ago, Django said:

What lens was this shot on?

Tamron EF 24-70 2.8 first edition. Most shots were either f8 or f2.8

[hyalinejim]

35 minutes ago, hyalinejim said:

and tames over-saturation a bit.

To clarify: In Panasonic's LUT, reds and oranges are relatively more saturated than blues and greens even though it's a fairly low saturation conversion in general. The Resolve CST is more saturated than Panasonic's LUT. But the saturation is more balanced across hues, eg; the reds are high saturation but so are the blues and greens. The gamut mapping above helps to bring some of the super-saturated colours into range. But if you prefer a lower overall look then lower the saturation.

[ade towell]

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

Where can one get this? 

I'm not sure what the score is with directly linking to luts outside of eoshd but put those first 2 words into google...

[ade towell]

1 hour ago, hyalinejim said:

@Django and anyone else who's interested I've uploaded a bunch of very short clips here at different resolutions and crop factors to check out:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/13zSYccjrhj1WXKDNMFioxTAoQbZyuP80?usp=share_link

Thank you kindly sir,  above and beyond - get my camera either tomorrow or monday but this gives me something to play with in the meantime

[Django]

24 minutes ago, hyalinejim said:

To clarify: In Panasonic's LUT, reds and oranges are relatively more saturated than blues and greens even though it's a fairly low saturation conversion in general. The Resolve CST is more saturated than Panasonic's LUT. But the saturation is more balanced across hues, eg; the reds are high saturation but so are the blues and greens. The gamut mapping above helps to bring some of the super-saturated colours into range. But if you prefer a lower overall look then lower the saturation.

Cool, I'm staying away from the standard Panny LUT. The Varicam ones like "Nicest" seem.. nicer.

Overall solid 4K files. Not sure about 6K open gate. Man that rolling shutter, yikes. Gotta stay away from trains!

[Emanuel]

3 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Granted they're a retailer, but another test. Starting to think Panny (or Sigma) did something to make them work so well. 

 

Interesting how they rule out any else other than Canon's adapter to allow EF lenses on their R camera lineup to pair such combo now.

Looks like this time a clear and promising win-win for more to come on the Panasonic camp, finally... sigh :- )

[hyalinejim]

1 hour ago, Django said:

Not sure about 6K open gate.

Because of the rolling shutter, or because of something else?

1 hour ago, Django said:

Gotta stay away from trains!

I assume that RS will be improved in APSC mode, so there is that option if you know there's a train due any minute!

I'm just having look at the footage now myself. Today was my first day using the camera properly, did a corporate job with it this morning. All good. Sometimes the AF got confused (you can see this in one of the seal shots I uploaded - Animal AF was on but it just lost it) in which case I just switched it off and used manual. Like, for people when there are 2 or 3 in the frame it sometimes hops back and forth between targets randomly, whereas I would prefer if it waited for me to select who to focus on. I had increased sensitivity to +3 so maybe that has something to do with it. But for standard interview shots it was a relief to just let the camera roll with the lens wide open and I could concentrate on other things besides focusing.

One of the questions I was interested in looking at in the test footage I uploaded was: is the 3.1x crop in HD pixel-pixel mode usable? The answer, I think is yes but only by keeping noise low by exposing at base ISO and/or overexposing to keep noise at a minimum and also stopping down to wherever the lens is sharpest. In the clips I uploaded, the first few HD pixel-pixel shots were at 2.8 which is probably too soft. But this was at f8 and around 1.5 stops overexposed at base ISO and I I think I could just aboutt use it in a client vid if I didn't have time to change to a longer lens to get the shot:

 

So that means that a 24-70 roughly becomes a 75-210. But you really need good light to do that to avoid noise and lens imperfections. Would be great for travel in sunny places, not like grey old Ireland!

 

[hyalinejim]

Skintones are looking good to me using a LUT I made for the GH6:
 

Over the weekend if I have time I'll try to shoot some charts with the GH6 and S5II to check how close or not the colour is.

[ade towell]

Looking good.

Be interesting to see how a faster and quieter focusing Canon ef lens works with the Sigma adaptor, if your 24-70 is anything like the Tamron 17-50 2.8 apsc version I had a few years ago - it wasn't great for AF on a canon body - noisy and sluggish.  

Have just read that Meike may be making a vari-nd EF to L-mount filter adaptor like they have for Canon EF to RF. This has worked great for me (much cheaper and supposedly better than the official Canon version) and is one of the few things I will miss about the Canon R6. Hopefully it will work as well as the Sigma adaptor seems to

[hyalinejim]

18 minutes ago, ade towell said:

if your 24-70 is anything like the Tamron 17-50 2.8 apsc version I had a few years ago - it wasn't great for AF on a canon body - noisy and sluggish

It's actually the quietest of the handful of EF zooms that I own, but from looking at detailed reviews I'd say it's likely that the G2 version of the lens would be a bit quieter. But the G1, although not silent, is not too noisy for me. The G2 AF is also supposed to be considerably faster and more accurate for stills (although I never noticed a problem with the G1), and that might transfer into better phase AF for video, possibly. I really like the image quality of the G1 (very high transmission of light) and would love to own the G2 but I'm not going to spend €1000 for what might be a minor upgrade in AF.

I definitely need to replace my noisy first generation Sigma 70-200, though. When I have time I guess I'll pop into my local camera shop (which also carries a range of second hand, older lenses) and try things out and see what works.

I guess that the quietest lenses of all would be Canon STM and Nano-USM lenses but there are not so many of these and most are EF-S for crop sensors.

 

 

[ade towell]

Not all STM lenses are quiet or fast with focus though in my experience - the EF 50mm STM I have is slow although not too noisy, even the RF 35mm STM I tried was quite slow and noisy with AF, the older EF USM lenses I have were better. I do have a Canon EF 70-300mm nano usm lens that is fast and quiet with AF. 

This is where I think the Panasonic 1.8 primes will be great - they are all silent AF with focus breathing control and manual focus speed control. As you say most of Canon's lenses with nano usm are the slower zooms

I think the Sigma adaptor has really given Panasonic a huge boost and the S5ii could interest both Sony and Canon users - to me it is now a perfectly valid hybrid or b-cam for a Canon c70 or C200 owner that has EF lenses.

Likewise for Sony users who are still adapting EF lenses - by all accounts the L mount Sigma adaptor  works better for AF than the equivalent EF to e-mount adaptors. 

[ade towell]

If you are thinking of changing your old Sigma 70-200, the Canon EF 70-200mm 2.8 mk2 lens is lovely but heavy - quiet and fast with AF and renders a beautiful image. The mk3 version is lighter and smaller but more expensive

[Django]

14 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

Because of the rolling shutter, or because of something else?

Mainly the RS but the low bitrate and 4:2:0 might also be less robust than the 4K. Hard to tell with the wideshot train station examples but that's what I suspect. Still a nice option to have..

14 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

I assume that RS will be improved in APSC mode, so there is that option if you know there's a train due any minute!

 

That's what I was thinking too, or shoot in 4K60p to half the RS. That's what I often do on R6 who also has poor RS.

14 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

One of the questions I was interested in looking at in the test footage I uploaded was: is the 3.1x crop in HD pixel-pixel mode usable? The answer, I think is yes but only by keeping noise low by exposing at base ISO and/or overexposing to keep noise at a minimum and also stopping down to wherever the lens is sharpest.

I haven't played much with the HD pixel-pixel files as I noticed the footage looks noisy and soft.

13 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

Skintones are looking good to me using a LUT I made for the GH6:

They look good to me too but had to tweak them a bit to avoid the red channel sat from boosting red nose syndrome. 

1 hour ago, ade towell said:

This is where I think the Panasonic 1.8 primes will be great - they are all silent AF with focus breathing control and manual focus speed control.

Yeah those seem like ideal affordable compact primes, as a prime shooter its definitely what I'd go for native lens solutions.

[hyalinejim]

36 minutes ago, Django said:

Mainly the RS

Yeah it's a pity that most of those shots are moving. I'd assume that the RS is the same in 4K full. I'll try to do a 6K versus 4K comparison from a tripod if I get the chance.