Panasonic S5 II (What does Panasonic have up their sleeve?)

[John Matthews]

This might sound uninteresting to some, but I'd be semi interested in the FZ and LX series of cameras with PDAF. Has anyone heard anything? People are so quick to say everything is dead, but these lines still have a place, especially since phones suck at ergonomics and telephoto.

[hyalinejim]

OK so I've had a chance to look at the S5II's colour (when converted to from V-gamut to V709) and compare it to the GH6 and to reality. In short, it's a bit different to the GH6, but not as huge a difference than the GH6 was to the GH5, for example. You might get away with using both in a multicam shoot and not matching them, but there are some differences in skin. And both the GH6 and S5II fall quite a bit short of colour as it is in reality, but in different ways.

GH6:

 

S5II:

 

Reality:

 

You'll need to open them in separate tabs to see the differences.

In relation to @Django 's concern with red in skintones, if you switch between S5II and Reality images you'll notice that the S5II has a range of oranges that are too red and too dark. This doesn't do any favours to people with less than perfect skin like our friend Mister Camera Conspiracies.

[Django]

@hyalinejim Thanks but I'm not quite sure how to best compare/analyse those charts? From what I can tell the reds are darker and more saturated, the blues are lighter and shift towards purple, the orange looks darker and the cyan brighter, almost vivid. How all that translates in an image I don't know, CS is still kind of a mystery to me. In the sense that perfect accuracy isn't always what you want, real life can be boring, ugly even. CS is supposed to enhance that. Make skin tones look good and even etc.

Regardless, it seems pretty clear to me now form working with the files you provided and from the camera conspiracy video comparing S5II/A7SIII/R5, that the biggest issue is red channel is over saturated. 

That said I like the Panny CS generally speaking. Like I said it kind of reminds me of Leica, which is my favourite. I think the main culprit is really the outdated single conversion LUT.

[hyalinejim]

22 minutes ago, Django said:

I'm not quite sure how to best compare/analyse those charts?

They're useful because they provide an objective, empirical reference for talking about colour, as you are doing! All those observations you make are valid. With the Panasonic colour transform, what should be orange is too dark and too red and that affects skin. And yes, you're right, one objective for colour transformation could be to try and get accurate colour, but it may not be the most subjectively pleasing colour.

Did you try the Resolve CST settings I posted above? It should give colour that is better for skintones on the S5II than Panasonic's LUT. Here is how the above chart looks with Resolve's CST colour:

 

The skintone portions are on the right hand side and upper left of the chart. This is a bit closer to reality.

[Django]

I did actually try CST with those settings but to be honest was not enchanted by those results. It's all very subjective of course, and I'm not necessarily looking for complete accuracy when grading, although its probably a good place to start so I'll test that further. 

I think Sony was voted most accurate color science in recent cross-platform tests. Yet in reality they are ironically often the most disliked! Reality isn't always that pretty 😉 

[TomTheDP]

7 minutes ago, Django said:

I did actually try CST with those settings but to be honest was not enchanted by those results. It's all very subjective of course, and I'm not necessarily looking for complete accuracy when grading, although its probably a good place to start so I'll test that further. 

I think Sony was voted most accurate color science in recent cross-platform tests. Yet in reality they are ironically often the most disliked! Reality isn't always that pretty 😉 

Most people like Sony these days though. But another thing is mixed lighting conditions, which is where a lot of cameras struggle. I think one thing higher end cameras are known for at least in the cinema realm is maintaining pleasing skin tones while also maintaining color accuracy. 

Film stocks definitely give a pretty stylized look though and everyone is using film conversion luts these days. 

[PannySVHS]

I second that @John Matthews
But much more than that I would love a GX cam with GH5 goodies but without the pink blotchyness in Vlog under certain conditions and skin. LX100 seems cool as a concept but in reality a fly by wire lens does not need to be spoiled by 10bit prowess giving us only 80% of the sensor estate in a though compact but hardly pocketable body. Too many compromises so far. For the 1 inch line like the LX15 it would perfect to have 10bit in that kinda truly pocketable body. Though the lens is hardly covering the whole sensor, at least at the wide end it is vignetting with hard cut edges plus bending and blurring in photo Raw. FZ line, heck yeah, S16 sensor size, 28- 200 T2.8 lens, lens with hard stops for manual focus with PDAF, 12+ MP Dual Gain sensor, 10bit, NDs, timecode, SDI. But nobody would buy that thing, because it would be too expensive and too video centered plus "only" S16. Without the other goodies i wouldn't need 10bit. FZ2000 is still more than 600 EU on the second market. So GX line and LX15 successor, yes please!:)

[Django]

1 hour ago, TomTheDP said:

Most people like Sony these days though. But another thing is mixed lighting conditions, which is where a lot of cameras struggle. I think one thing higher end cameras are known for at least in the cinema realm is maintaining pleasing skin tones while also maintaining color accuracy. 

Film stocks definitely give a pretty stylized look though and everyone is using film conversion luts these days. 

Agreed, Sony has improved -a lot- but you're right about mixed lighting conditions, this is were Sony always fails miserably.

Technically I guess its more a white balance issue but yeah some cameras just handle mixed lighting way better than others. We all remember A7S2 zombie skin tones.

Its not a big issue with cinema cams in the higher end because the environment is so well controlled. Shooting RAW WB doesn't even matter.

If you're talking about ARRI CS, well then yeah its the best in the world. Everyone else is just trying to copy it, including myself.

I'm not a big fan of film stocks to be honest but it often helps rubbing off the digital edge of mirrorless cams so I do use film convert when I'm trying to get away from the dreaded video look. But sometimes I like the video look. Like for shooting BTS, corporate, social media or more docu/news type stuff. Social media clients hate the cinema look, too stylised, comes off as arrogant & overkill.

[zerocool22]

Ok stupid question, I just got my panasonic s5 ii and have not read any documentation yet. But I just set the camera on a tripod flipped the screen. Put the lens to AF, camera to AFC, and focus area to human. Ok great, so now I run to the front of the camera, and there are boxes appearing around my face. But the focus does not change whatsoever. Do I need to change something else? Or do I need to actually record, or press the half shutter mode?

 

Thanks

[zerocool22]

Update1: looks like I need to actually hit the record button.
( I hope I do not need to lock onto my face when start recording. As in some conditions I will need to record and climb a fence or whatever so my face will only be on screen after a while). 

[zerocool22]

update 2: ok it does not need to lock onto my face when I hit record. 🙂

Just tried out my canon 50mm 1.2 at 1.2 and worked pretty good. My panasonic 85mm 1.8 allthough does make a lot of noise. Looks like there is no firmware update for the 85mm 1.8, just updated the firmware of the mc-21.

(sorry for fast posts, just trying some stuff out and typing at the same time). 

Does anybody already have some AF settings recommendations? 

[newfoundmass]

1 hour ago, zerocool22 said:

Ok stupid question, I just got my panasonic s5 ii and have not read any documentation yet. But I just set the camera on a tripod flipped the screen. Put the lens to AF, camera to AFC, and focus area to human. Ok great, so now I run to the front of the camera, and there are boxes appearing around my face. But the focus does not change whatsoever. Do I need to change something else? Or do I need to actually record, or press the half shutter mode?

 

Thanks

You can go into the settings, I believe, and make it so that AF works even when not recording.

[hyalinejim]

10 hours ago, zerocool22 said:

looks like I need to actually hit the record button

You can set it to AF constantly in the menu Video>Focus>Continuous AF>Mode 2

Congrats on your new camera! Can I ask you, when it's switched on does the power light next to the on/off switch turn on? Mine doesn't, which I find weird, unless it's charging.

Another odd thing is that Panasonic doesn't give you a battery charger in the box. Just an AC adapter to plug into the camera directly. I already have one from the GH6, but it's a bit miserly in my view.

Another miserly oddity is that old GH5 batteries won't fit in the S5II battery compartment, but they do in the GH6 which also takes BLK22s.

[zerocool22]

Thanks!

Just checked the light, its the same for me. I also tested it on the original S5, and it only lights when charging. Maybe there is a setting so you can use it as a tally light (not sure).

I guess the AF eats battery and that's why its default to off when its not recording.

[hyalinejim]

14 hours ago, zerocool22 said:

Does anybody already have some AF settings recommendations? 

Just an observation after limited testing, but it seems to me that when using EF lenses (and maybe others?) when there are multiple people in frame and human detect AF is on then the camera often randomly shifts between people, which is very annoying.

However, if I turn off AF detect settings completely and switch to AF tracking mode then I can just tap on one person and it's very good at holding that person until I tap elsewhere.

 

[So Ros]

The same thing happens with Sony and canon autofocus.  You have to adjust, tap or go manually.  Plan accordingly when doing events, wedding’s, etc.. There are times you should use it and times you shouldn’t, it’s just a tool like anything else.

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

18 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

I second that @John Matthews
But much more than that I would love a GX cam with GH5 goodies but without the pink blotchyness in Vlog under certain conditions and skin. LX100 seems cool as a concept but in reality a fly by wire lens does not need to be spoiled by 10bit prowess giving us only 80% of the sensor estate in a though compact but hardly pocketable body. Too many compromises so far. For the 1 inch line like the LX15 it would perfect to have 10bit in that kinda truly pocketable body. Though the lens is hardly covering the whole sensor, at least at the wide end it is vignetting with hard cut edges plus bending and blurring in photo Raw. FZ line, heck yeah, S16 sensor size, 28- 200 T2.8 lens, lens with hard stops for manual focus with PDAF, 12+ MP Dual Gain sensor, 10bit, NDs, timecode, SDI. But nobody would buy that thing, because it would be too expensive and too video centered plus "only" S16. Without the other goodies i wouldn't need 10bit. FZ2000 is still more than 600 EU on the second market. So GX line and LX15 successor, yes please!:)

Would love to see it too, but I guess that in m43, Panasonic will only go with th GH line and a G100 sucessor - looks like they want to niche m43 in high end video / blogger video. Maybe a G9 sucessor. But I don't see a new GX, and for sure no more LX and FZ lines.

In fact, I did not even understand the GH6. The "H" is for "hybrid", and the GH6 is much worse than GH5 for photos, is almost a video camera only.

And probably the research for the S5 II PDAF started some time ago, why they did not put it on the GH6, even if it meant a new delay? Maybe the (still not named, no one look for the sensors in microscopes?) sensor manufacturer for the GH6 did not have the tech to do a PDAF one?

[John Matthews]

52 minutes ago, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

Would love to see it too, but I guess that in m43, Panasonic will only go with th GH line and a G100 sucessor - looks like they want to niche m43 in high end video / blogger video. Maybe a G9 sucessor. But I don't see a new GX, and for sure no more LX and FZ lines.

As long as the G100 has an IBIS, PDAF, and a proper shutter with sync speeds greater than 1/50s, I have no problem with it. Those were the faults of that camera. I like the form-factor.

54 minutes ago, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

In fact, I did not even understand the GH6. The "H" is for "hybrid", and the GH6 is much worse than GH5 for photos, is almost a video camera only.

I'd agree with this except I really like the photos from it, but it has been a chore to shoot differently than the way I shot with other cameras. The handheld 100mp is simply voodoo magic, blowing away the results of many other sub $2000 cameras. It's slow, but for landscapes and "slow" portraiture it's amazing. I love the colors off it too. It faults majorly if you think you can shoot it like other ISO invariant cameras (like the GH5), but the 15-16bit files hold tremendous information in them, especially in the midtones. Most people only look at the highlights and shadows and want to turn crushed blacks into greys, not possible with the GH6 IMO.

 

1 hour ago, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

And probably the research for the S5 II PDAF started some time ago, why they did not put it on the GH6, even if it meant a new delay? Maybe the (still not named, no one look for the sensors in microscopes?) sensor manufacturer for the GH6 did not have the tech to do a PDAF one?

This is an engineering question, but why not? Sony's RX series has PDAF and a much smaller sensor. Technically, it must be possible even with the dual-gain circuitry. Again, after seeing my E-M1 ii side-by-side with the GH6, I'm still rather happy. In good light and with no stupid twinkle YouTube light in the background, you can't see much of a difference. Going forward, you will see viewers will be more forgiving of this. It's only because we're camera nerds that we care. Recently, I've noticed so many Hollywood films with blatent focusing mistakes.

[TomTheDP]

6 minutes ago, John Matthews said:

It's only because we're camera nerds that we care. Recently, I've noticed so many Hollywood films with blatent focusing mistakes.

Especially older films when it was all film. It is definitely less common these days but I have seen it, I think there was an out of focus shot that was very noticeable in the last Thor film. With super shallow DOF tracking long takes some soft focus is definitely common. 

I suppose its a little more critical for short form social media stuff as every shot is more apparent. Or maybe it matters less as such content is usually so short lived. 

[zerocool22]

So I updated the sigma mc-21 yesterday, and did some more tests and everything was fine. Today I wanted to do a new test, but I can't get the camera to continiously autofocus anymore. (it should work in all codecs and picture profiles right? also changed shutter to angle). 

Lens is on AF, camera is on AFC/human detection, I even hit record, the box appears and follows me around but no focus what'so ever, any idea's? I would have thought it would be more easy.