Panasonic S5 II (What does Panasonic have up their sleeve?)

[HockeyFan12]

I'm more thinking about color rendering. The Venice has enough dynamic range for me as-is. A7S3 is so close but the color is just not quite right and it's annoying. P6K has great color to my eye and internal raw but lacks other things.

[TomTheDP]

5 minutes ago, Django said:

Actually according to CineD, S1 has about 12 stops and C70 is closer to 13. Also according to them, S1 uses aggressive NR (even when set to -5) to achieve such results. While C70 has virtually no NR with that score. Something extra to consider when comparing metrics.

Also, the nice thing about how the DGO sensor works on C70 is very clean shadow information. So low shadow noise, high DR with pleasant roll-off. That's a dream type of sensor for me personally. I'll also take that over dual gain ISO any day.

The S1H lost that aggressive NR in later firmware, the GH5 had similar issue at first. The S1 never had the aggressive NR though, probably one of the better cameras in terms of an organic NR free image, it was rated at 12.2 stops. The C70 in RAW is 12.3 stops, which is very close to what the S1 is doing.

 Of course the S1 may have less dynamic range in RAW due to the likely less processing going on. But from using both cameras on projects the S1 seems to hold highlights better while the while the C70 is better in shadows. But I know people have noticed the C70 in 10 bit is doing a lot of processing, which is why I assume the dynamic range in RAW is less. 

[Django]

1 hour ago, TomTheDP said:

The S1H lost that aggressive NR in later firmware, the GH5 had similar issue at first. The S1 never had the aggressive NR though, probably one of the better cameras in terms of an organic NR free image, it was rated at 12.2 stops. The C70 in RAW is 12.3 stops, which is very close to what the S1 is doing.

 Of course the S1 may have less dynamic range in RAW due to the likely less processing going on. But from using both cameras on projects the S1 seems to hold highlights better while the while the C70 is better in shadows. But I know people have noticed the C70 in 10 bit is doing a lot of processing, which is why I assume the dynamic range in RAW is less. 

12.3 stops in RAW but visually the C70 in RAW: "About 13 stops can be identified above the noise floor, as well as a 14th and a faint 15th."

And yeah when you switch to 10-bit CLOG2: 12.8 stops.

Both results are imo mighty impressive for an entry level cine cam. 

And with the rumoured 24 stop Canon sensor, it seems like they aren't planning to stop here!

As for the S1's NR well I'm just going by what cined said in their review:

"Looking at the noise floor and the lower steps of the step chart of the Panasonic S1, there is very little noise visible – it looks ultra clean. Although noise reduction was set to the lowest setting, we can assume that there is still a lot of internal noise reduction going on. "

"For me, if the image is too clean, it lacks mojo."

"I have to say that I wish the video images received would have a bit more “mojo” in them. The Current  image is very clean – maybe too clean, at times. "

I dunno, maybe firmware diminished the NR? Hope that's also the case with S5ii since someone was just mentioning aggressive NR (hopefully only in standard profiles not VLOG).

This is perhaps an extra reason to wait for S5IIX and have ProRes which should normally have the less NR processing.

 

[ade towell]

I remember that Cine D article - they tested the DR of the S1 before it had Vlog so comments about NR and lack of mojo were with it in 'standard' profile and so a bit premature in my book. They admitted as much when they tested it again after the Vlog update saying it totally transformed the camera. Have just found their follow up article which says...

"To my taste, Panasonic used to enhance the red channel on their cameras, resulting in “red-ish” skin tones, but from what I can see when working with the LUMIX S1 and the new V-Log, this is a thing of the past. The images grade wonderfully (and easily). 

...we get a Dynamic Range result of 12.2 stops for V-LOG ISO640 (SNR = 2). This is the same as for HLG, but there is a considerable difference, as the camera produces a very organic looking noise floor (see fig. 1 below), with the potential to dig further into the shadows via post processing.

The Panasonic LUMIX S1 has just become a better camera for filmmakers. I truly like how easy it is to grade and how the picture looks like in general."

It was the S1H they tested later that had 13 stops DR similar to the C70. 

I think the C70 and the C200 too when shooting in RAW both have a lovely full image, the Canon mirrorless cameras like R6 and R5 unfortunately suffer from a lack of DR, they don't seem to have the full range of latitude like the C70 does  especially in the shadows. There is something strange going on in the shadows with the R5 & R6 - seeing as we've gone there this is how our friends at Cine D describe the R6...

"What can be observed is the fact that almost no noise floor is visible – it looks like lower stops are simply cut off.

Hence, it will not be possible to dig into the shadows much without losing color and creating banding – confirmed by our latitude (underexposure) test "

This is one of the frustrating things about the Canon mirrorless cameras and it is nice to get that big chunk of DR back with the S5ii. I think this tonal range helps in overall image quality.

With Canon you have to buy one of their cinema cameras to get the full range of DR, at least in video. 

 

[John Matthews]

12 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

Like I've had a GH5 since 2017 and it came with the 12-60 f2.8. I used it on a handful of occasions when I needed an architectural shot with straight lines, but the rest of the time I used non-Panasonic glass on a Metabones. It's not just about the DOF, though, it's about knocking back that clinical look. So distortion, vignetting, softness and diffusion are all parts of that. Maybe also chromatic aberration, sometimes. I hesitate to say flare, because I really don't like flare.

I think Olympus 17, 25, and 45 Pro lenses would also do this.

[hyalinejim]

21 hours ago, Simon Young said:

here's some fuzz in other forums about the S5ii using a new algorithm that seems to smooth skin texture a bit too much

The OP of that post claims V-Log and HLG are unaffected. Also, her tests of the normal profiles were in 8 bit, AFAIK.

[Beritar]

1 hour ago, hyalinejim said:

The OP of that post claims V-Log and HLG are unaffected. Also, her tests of the normal profiles were in 8 bit, AFAIK.

V-LOG is unaffected. However the smoothing is there even with H265 4:2:2 with every other profiles, exactly like on the GH6. By the way,this is not a news about the GH6.

[Beritar]

9 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

The S1H lost that aggressive NR in later firmware, the GH5 had similar issue at first. The S1 never had the aggressive NR though, probably one of the better cameras in terms of an organic NR free image, it was rated at 12.2 stops. The C70 in RAW is 12.3 stops, which is very close to what the S1 is doing.

 Of course the S1 may have less dynamic range in RAW due to the likely less processing going on. But from using both cameras on projects the S1 seems to hold highlights better while the while the C70 is better in shadows. But I know people have noticed the C70 in 10 bit is doing a lot of processing, which is why I assume the dynamic range in RAW is less. 

To have used the S1, S5 and the S5II, the S1 and S5 produce a nicer image quality than the S5II with every other profiles than V-LOG, too much details processing on the S5II.

[MrSMW]

I've reduced my preorder from 2 to 1 body now, but only because I'm sitting on the fence re. possible future replacement of my pair of S1R's, ie, I can easily 'get by' all of this year with that pair of S1R's and a single S5.

Could be a future of 3x S5ii's...or could be switching out the S1R's for any new S'2'...or something Sigma...or even something Leica, but whatever and whenever it is, it needs to tick enough boxes for me and be actually more than rumour or speculation.

What intrigues me most is whether I can get away with zero gimbal because I've never been much of a fan and certainly not for all day use, just very sparingly for certain specific things.

When my S5ii does turn up (this is France so behind the curve) I'll see.

[Django]

6 hours ago, ade towell said:

I think the C70 and the C200 too when shooting in RAW both have a lovely full image, the Canon mirrorless cameras like R6 and R5 unfortunately suffer from a lack of DR, they don't seem to have the full range of latitude like the C70 does  especially in the shadows. There is something strange going on in the shadows with the R5 & R6 - seeing as we've gone there this is how our friends at Cine D describe the R6...

"What can be observed is the fact that almost no noise floor is visible – it looks like lower stops are simply cut off.

Hence, it will not be possible to dig into the shadows much without losing color and creating banding – confirmed by our latitude (underexposure) test "

This is one of the frustrating things about the Canon mirrorless cameras and it is nice to get that big chunk of DR back with the S5ii. I think this tonal range helps in overall image quality.

With Canon you have to buy one of their cinema cameras to get the full range of DR, at least in video. 

Right but to also be fair to R6 that test was done before the CLog3 update that did much improve the DR.

But overall I agree with you, Canon mirrorless video doesn't have the best DR.

This is definitely a clear advantage for Sony/Panasonic and it certainly contributes to overall IQ.

[mercer]

To be fair, I read this recently...

"Panasonic cameras have cooties, but Canon cameras are anti-vax..."

[XNYC]

Many are impressed with the new active I.S. video stabilization.  Is this "new" IBIS activated in the Normal stabilization mode or does E. Stabilization have to also be ON? 

[John Matthews]

2 hours ago, XNYC said:

Many are impressed with the new active I.S. video stabilization.  Is this "new" IBIS activated in the Normal stabilization mode or does E. Stabilization have to also be ON? 

I think most reviewers are referring to the IBIS-only mode on the S5ii, giving full-sensor readout. On the GH6, I haven't even tried the any active mode yet and I've had it for months now. I'll have to try it soon.

[Thpriest]

Anyone got any examples comparing the S5 and S5ii in Natural, CineD etc to see the difference? The S1 and S5 have a great image even in lowlight. I’d hope the S5ii was the same.

I don’t want to use Vlog all the time.

[Beritar]

3 hours ago, XNYC said:

Many are impressed with the new active I.S. video stabilization.  Is this "new" IBIS activated in the Normal stabilization mode or does E. Stabilization have to also be ON? 

The new "Active" IS is the name of the new stabilization. This has nothing to do with E-Stabilization which add a crop.
Some "Pro" youtubers have mixed up with "Active Stabilization" from Sony (which is basicaly the same than E-Stabilization).

From my test and compared to the S1, the new Active IS is great, you can walk with lenses between 20/85mm with almost no "jump" or wobbles (you must walk very slowly with a 85mm though).
The IBIS boost fonction is improved as well, I tried with a 50mm and 85mm lens in 6K mode, even when cropping 1:1, the footage is super stable.

Oh and the AF is great with Panasonic S lenses ! This is the first Panasonic camera with AF in my opinion.

However there is a downgrade on the standard profiles about image quality, faces looks mushy like on Fuji or Samsung NX, even Sony looks better. Too much temporal noise/color reduction. V-LOG (8 bits/10 bits) is not impacted.

[Beritar]

4 minutes ago, Thpriest said:

Anyone got any examples comparing the S5 and S5ii in Natural, CineD etc to see the difference? The S1 and S5 have a great image even in lowlight. I’d hope the S5ii was the same.

I don’t want to use Vlog all the time.

This is Standard profile, but Natural and Cine-D have the same new details processing.
Some users suggest you can use a real time LUT with V-log to sort this out but this is not exactly the same because V-log can't be used below ISO 320. The good news is 8 bits V-log is not impacted.
I really hope Panasonic will add an option to get ride of this new details processing.

[hyalinejim]

2 hours ago, Beritar said:

you can use a real time LUT with V-log to sort this out but this is not exactly the same because V-log can't be used below ISO 320.

For those who want to do this you could create a real time LUT that pushes the signal down by 2 stops or whatever and shoot at 640. V-Log has 6ish stops in the highlights versus the standard profiles which probably have around 4 maximum. That's how log profiles work: for example let's say the base ISO is normally 100 and the log profile is 800. Well, the log profile is basically shooting at 100 to give 3 extra stops in the highlights and the signal is then raised so the exposure is correct.

So for people who want the normal profiles for cleaner low light by using lower ISO, you should theoretically be able to get the same result by "overexposing" the same scene at a higher VLog ISO and pushing the image down a few stops with a real time LUT.

[Beritar]

1 hour ago, hyalinejim said:

For those who want to do this you could create a real time LUT that pushes the signal down by 2 stops or whatever and shoot at 640. V-Log has 6ish stops in the highlights versus the standard profiles which probably have around 4 maximum. That's how log profiles work: for example let's say the base ISO is normally 100 and the log profile is 800. Well, the log profile is basically shooting at 100 to give 3 extra stops in the highlights and the signal is then raised so the exposure is correct.

So for people who want the normal profiles for cleaner low light by using lower ISO, you should theoretically be able to get the same result by "overexposing" the same scene at a higher VLog ISO and pushing the image down a few stops with a real time LUT.

Good to know but I tried a lot of LUTs at ISO 320 and each time the noise was higher on the S5II compared to the standard/Natural/Cine-V profiles.  For exemple, the S1 has a lovely picture in 6K with the standard profiles, noise free at low ISO, the S5II is noise free too in 6K but it uses the new details processing.

Do you have some LUTs I could try ?

[hyalinejim]

4 hours ago, Beritar said:

Do you have some LUTs I could try ?

Try using LutCalc to make a V-Log to V709 (or whatever curve you fancy) and add -2 stops exposure 

[John Matthews]

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