Panasonic S5 II (What does Panasonic have up their sleeve?)

[hyalinejim]

2 hours ago, Beritar said:

VLog is definitely more noisy

Yes, you're right - it is! Natural looks wonderfully smooth in comparison. It must be doing some pretty serious temporal noise reduction, even with NR at -10... and on the S5 and S1 I would guess it's the same, but without the smearing and detail loss.

There is definitely an advantage to using the method I describe for V-Log. I checked, and V-Log ISO 25600 pulled 2.66 stops is cleaner than V-Log ISO 4000 (as long as NR is at 0). So for regular V-Log shooters it means that it's better to ETTR even going up to very high ISOs rather than sticking at, say, 4000 and leaving that highlight headroom empty.

4000:

 

25600 pulled down 2.66 stops:

And you @Beritar this pushing of V-Log right to its upper limit using ISO will give you cleaner footage than just using V-Log at the metered exposure. It will be not-as-clean as Natural (which may be unNaturally clean 😉) but it will be unsmeared.

 

Try this LUT for getting V-Log close-ish to Natural:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gqigXKnLl8T2zT6KswA2ruLvG6bbqORc/view?usp=share_link
The colour isn't quite the same but the curve is.

Anyway, fingers crossed that these and other issues will be fixed in the 2.0 firmware update in June!

[MrSMW]

Not connected with anything above, I just cancelled my preorders for BOTH S5iiX's.

Nothing to do with the camera per se, but I came to the conclusion that if I was going to be shooting 6k 30p 3:2 on the the things, then why not just stick with the S1R's which do 10 bit 5k 30p 3:2?

OK, they crop pixel:pixel but that does not bother me and OK, they don't shoot log either, but they produce a really nice clean result in the Flat profile that I am used to working with.

AF not needed as I have the S5ii for that.

So why spend approx 3000-3500 euros to change?

Well I decided it wasn't worth it and actually I gain/retain the 47mp S1R stills capability so that's something.

I'm just going to carry on with what I have the rest of this year and wait until there is any sign of an S1R and an S1H replacement and then make any future decisions.

So it's back to a pair of S1R's for hybrid on me at all times plus the S5ii purely video on gimbal/tripod for entrances, exits, couple and static stuff with the S1H purely video on tripod for just ceremonies and speeches, ie, most of the day I'll only be working with 2 units, occasionally 3 and at certain times, 4, but then 2 will be static at that point so other than the set up and switching them on, 2 really.

I just bought (for 70 euros!!) however, a 4 wheel cart with a handle that I can load all my gear into straight out of the back of my camper/motorhome when at gigs and just trawl the whole lot in; tripods, light stands, light, power bank, extension cables, camera, - the lot...in one single trip. Saves 3-4 trips! Now that IS a worthwhile purchase. Especially as I have gone all in on my lighting now.

[PannySVHS]

What cart did you buy? @MrSMW Also, I am interested to know what´s exactely in your lighting and whole package fitting all in your 4 wheely. Appreciated! 🙂 cheers

[Beritar]

4 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

Yes, you're right - it is! Natural looks wonderfully smooth in comparison. It must be doing some pretty serious temporal noise reduction, even with NR at -10... and on the S5 and S1 I would guess it's the same, but without the smearing and detail loss.

There is definitely an advantage to using the method I describe for V-Log. I checked, and V-Log ISO 25600 pulled 2.66 stops is cleaner than V-Log ISO 4000 (as long as NR is at 0). So for regular V-Log shooters it means that it's better to ETTR even going up to very high ISOs rather than sticking at, say, 4000 and leaving that highlight headroom empty.

4000:

 

25600 pulled down 2.66 stops:

And you @Beritar this pushing of V-Log right to its upper limit using ISO will give you cleaner footage than just using V-Log at the metered exposure. It will be not-as-clean as Natural (which may be unNaturally clean 😉) but it will be unsmeared.

 

Try this LUT for getting V-Log close-ish to Natural:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gqigXKnLl8T2zT6KswA2ruLvG6bbqORc/view?usp=share_link
The colour isn't quite the same but the curve is.

Anyway, fingers crossed that these and other issues will be fixed in the 2.0 firmware update in June!

Yes like I said (a lot of times 😅) the S5II uses nasty temporal noise and chroma noise reduction in low light with the 709 profiles even at -5, the difference with the S1 and S5 is stricking, especially on skin. There is also too much sharpening in 6K with these profiles, even at -5, it's night and day with the S1.
This is the first thing I noticed when I bought the S5II some months ago. Maybe (I'm not sure) the S1 and S5 use slight temporal noise reduction with the 709 profiles but it doesn't impact the details at all unlike the S5II.

Now I only use V-Log on the S5II because of the smearing and the over-sharpening of the 709 profiles, and I always overexpose by two stops like you did, it can change the colors and the highlights rendering a bit but this way it definitely gives lower noise, and like you said V-Log is free of smearing as long as you use 0 NR and 0 sharpness. 

Thank you for the Lut, I will try it.
Yes I hope Panasonic will fix the 709 profiles, for now I still use the S1 for low light but I miss the S5II AF.

 

[hyalinejim]

1 hour ago, Beritar said:

I still use the S1 for low light

It's worth pointing out again that the S1 must also be applying temporal noise reduction in 709 profiles, and if that's the look you're after you can achieve it by doing some NR in post for V-Log footage.

[deezid]

11 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

@deezid
Would the same new Braw improvements apply to the Lumix S1 as well, the S1H and S5? Is it an improvement in the BMVA recorder hardware or software or S5II? I own a S1 and find the internal quality to be very good. How would you compare S1 with Braw to its internal recording? Also, how do you rate Braw in the 4k and 6k pockets? cheers and thanks! 🙂

As far as I'm aware, there were hardware limitations that led to limited raw support on older S series cameras not delivering each chroma channel individually. 

Also using BRAW on the older S Series you will get an image that is both oversharpened and mushy looking.

That issue doesn't exist on the Pocket 6K and S5II(x) at least.
The Pocket 6K has lots of issues with highlights and artefacts though at its second native ISO range.

[hyalinejim]

@deezid are you testing the 2.0 firmware for the S5II or this on the S5IIX?

If S5II firmware 2.0 is there any other good news you can share at this point?

[Kisaha]

5 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

What cart did you buy? @MrSMW Also, I am interested to know what´s exactely in your lighting and whole package fitting all in your 4 wheely. Appreciated! 🙂 cheers

I would also like to know about the cart! Most of the times, a cart is more important than a new camera!

[newfoundmass]

6 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Not connected with anything above, I just cancelled my preorders for BOTH S5iiX's.

Nothing to do with the camera per se, but I came to the conclusion that if I was going to be shooting 6k 30p 3:2 on the the things, then why not just stick with the S1R's which do 10 bit 5k 30p 3:2?

OK, they crop pixel:pixel but that does not bother me and OK, they don't shoot log either, but they produce a really nice clean result in the Flat profile that I am used to working with.

AF not needed as I have the S5ii for that.

So why spend approx 3000-3500 euros to change?

Well I decided it wasn't worth it and actually I gain/retain the 47mp S1R stills capability so that's something.

I'm just going to carry on with what I have the rest of this year and wait until there is any sign of an S1R and an S1H replacement and then make any future decisions.

So it's back to a pair of S1R's for hybrid on me at all times plus the S5ii purely video on gimbal/tripod for entrances, exits, couple and static stuff with the S1H purely video on tripod for just ceremonies and speeches, ie, most of the day I'll only be working with 2 units, occasionally 3 and at certain times, 4, but then 2 will be static at that point so other than the set up and switching them on, 2 really.

I just bought (for 70 euros!!) however, a 4 wheel cart with a handle that I can load all my gear into straight out of the back of my camper/motorhome when at gigs and just trawl the whole lot in; tripods, light stands, light, power bank, extension cables, camera, - the lot...in one single trip. Saves 3-4 trips! Now that IS a worthwhile purchase. Especially as I have gone all in on my lighting now.

You're like a roller coaster, I love it!

[MrSMW]

5 hours ago, Kisaha said:

I would also like to know about the cart! Most of the times, a cart is more important than a new camera!

Sorry, it was not 70 euros, but 90 euros https://www.amazon.fr/gp/aw/d/B0B4KN8ZR2?ref=ppx_pt2_mob_b_prod_image

10 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

What cart did you buy? @MrSMW Also, I am interested to know what´s exactely in your lighting and whole package fitting all in your 4 wheely. Appreciated! 🙂 cheers

2x Aperture Amaran 60x on 2x sturdy ‘up to 3 metre’ light stands, one with square diffuser soft box and with with a more focused ‘spot’ set up.

Both/either can run off the mains electric (50m 4 socket cable reel) or off my portable Poweroak 500wh power bank, or battery powered (22 minutes at max output). 

Then I have the Rotolight Neo 3 which can be used either on camera (stuff like the dance floor) or lightweight light stand (stuff like bride and groom prep).

I also have a Falconeyes (stoopid name!) F7 if I want to go even smaller or maybe set up a hair light or something for portraits, or slap it on the counter top for some nice side light during food service.

Smaller still, 2x tiny Godox units that cost about 25 euros each.

As with all these things, it’s about not having too much kit so everything has its place.

Most of my weddings are outdoors with meal/speeches maybe 25-30% of the time indoors and that’s what the 2 biggest units are for, ie, mainly ‘outdoor’.

The Rotolight gets carried around inside and if not needed, just sits in a corner.

The other 3 are camera bag so can be used rapidly in any given situation.

Almost 100% of my work is at private country estates (ie, not urban or city centres) hence why I can just park, live and work out of my motorhome on site and hence why the new trolly makes sense (I don’t know why I did not think of it sooner!) because it’s a single load and trip at the start of any job, and then reversed at the end. 

And for video this coming weekend, I’m trying out the 6k mode on the S1R. Yup, the 6k mode! They removed the 6k/4k mode on the newer S5ii but it exists on all the previous S cameras.

It’s limited to 10 minutes but I don’t care about that because not including the longer form tripod static stuff, it’s only 10 second clips. And you can extract stills as it’s shooting 6k 30p 18mb stills but with the option to select any 1 of 30 stills in any second, or just keep the thing as a video file.

I just need to go fiddle with the set up now as the S1R is easy (harness) and the S1H is easy (tripod) but the S5ii I have to MacGyver it so it can seamless transition from the other side of the harness to gimbal to tripod without changing base plates or anything. I’ll work it out… 🤪

5 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

You're like a roller coaster, I love it!

I’d rather not be as by nature, I like consistency, but such is the nature of this particular beast, I have not been able to find it. But very close now…

A Nikon + adapter + Tamron set up would nail it, but cost a bomb and I don’t have that kind of cash to invest this year.

Going with a pair of S5iix’s and a single S5ii was going to be it…and still maybe, but as I mentioned above, what am I really gaining over using my current set up for the cost to change of 3000-3500 euros? 

Uniformity across the bodies yes and is a big thing for me, plus full frame 6k rather than a mix of APSC and pixel:pixel not quite 6k (more like 5.4k) and less than stellar AF on all bodies, but I only need it in one and have it with the S5ii.

I’ll shut up now. I have gear to MacGyver… 😉

 

[Beritar]

10 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

It's worth pointing out again that the S1 must also be applying temporal noise reduction in 709 profiles, and if that's the look you're after you can achieve it by doing some NR in post for V-Log footage.

You should try to see the difference at 1:1 between your S1 with the last firwmare and your S5II with the 709 profiles and V-Log (like you did with Natural and V-Log on the S5II). I can assure you there is no difference with fine details on the S1 between V-Log and the 709 profiles, so if the S1 uses a sort of noise reduction, it's a very good one !

I used a lot of cameras and It's pretty easy to see when a camera uses temporal noise reduction, the details are inevitably altered, the same way as if you use noise reduction for stills, fine details become more "plastic".
While I liked these cameras, BMPCC 4K prores, NX1, NX500, G85, A7III, A7IV, A7SIII, and now the S5II in rec 709, they all used noise reduction and there was no way to disable it in video. NR destroys fine details to some extent (NX cameras were the most aggresive).
On the other hand, BMPCC 4K raw (of course) GH5, GX9 (very noisy), GH6 (only in Prores with both NR and sharpening at -5), S1 and S5, all these cameras don't show (or very few) altered details, just noise.

About the "look", since the first time I used V-Log in 2017 with the GH5, I tried to remove noise while conserving very fine details, I never succeded. It always end up like the cameras I listed earlier, noise is somewhat removed but the details too. And I don't speak about the time consumed to denoise the footage, Neat Video needs a very good computer to work in 6k, the loss of lens correction in V-log is also a problem, it is why most of the time I was shooting in rec 709 in low light with the S1.

[BTM_Pix]

5 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Sorry, it was not 70 euros, but 90 euros https://www.amazon.fr/gp/aw/d/B0B4KN8ZR2?ref=ppx_pt2_mob_b_prod_image

I've had my eye on getting that for a while.

Unfortunately, I need a bit more capacity for all the shit I've accumulated that I can't let go of so this would have to be me dragging my suitably sized cart to a gig.

[hyalinejim]

2 hours ago, Beritar said:

there is no difference with fine details on the S1 between V-Log and the 709 profiles

Yes, but I was talking about noise. Presumably, S1 709 is cleaner than S1 V-Log? I don't have an S1 so I don't know.

2 hours ago, Beritar said:

the loss of lens correction in V-log

On the S5II it works, at least for the only L mount lens I own. Perspective is on by default and vignetting is user selectable.

[Thpriest]

On 5/24/2023 at 6:49 AM, MrSMW said:

Going with a pair of S5iix’s and a single S5ii was going to be it…and still maybe, but as I mentioned above, what am I really gaining over using my current set up for the cost to change of 3000-3500 euros? 

Uniformity across the bodies yes and is a big thing for me, plus full frame 6k rather than a mix of APSC and pixel:pixel not quite 6k (more like 5.4k) and less than stellar AF on all bodies, but I only need it in one and have it with the S5ii.

I’ll shut up now. I have gear to MacGyver… 😉

 

I guess one thing you'd gain with the newer S5mk2s and 2Xs is a lighter set up. That can be a big difference at a wedding. I've also noticed the AF is more reliable in Photo mode as well, it seems quicker and more accurate. 

[MrSMW]

31 minutes ago, Thpriest said:

I guess one thing you'd gain with the newer S5mk2s and 2Xs is a lighter set up. That can be a big difference at a wedding. I've also noticed the AF is more reliable in Photo mode as well, it seems quicker and more accurate. 

The AF is plenty fast enough for my needs with the S1R but yes, size & weight are one of the 3-3.5k trade offs at this time!

I’d rather not stick with the S1R’s after this year though as although they are extremely capable, I don’t like them like I do my S5ii and I don’t love them like my S1H.

As I said above, I’m back on that fence waiting to see if there will be a ‘S2R’ and a ‘S2H’ and if so, what are they, and then decide.

I know that if I’d gone all S5 at this time, old Pannyboy would bring out some new gems and I’d wish I’d waited and because I don’t ‘need’ to do anything at this time, I bought myself a Smallrig cage, matte box lite and side handle for the S5ii as it will be my principle video unit for 2023, so giving it some love 😉

[Thpriest]

I'll be doing my 3rd hybrid wedding on Sunday but it'll be my first with the S5mk2. I don't over complicate things! If I have both cameras on me then the S5 is photo and the S5mk2 video. For ceremony, speeches (if there are any) and first dance the S5 will be locked off on a tripod and the S5mk2 will be hybrid. 

After using the S5mk2 for a couple of events I think it's going to make life quite a bit easier in a wedding scenario, mainly because of the AF and punch in to check focus when in manual. I'm enjoying the EVF, way better than the S5's.

[MrSMW]

Yes, I have also gone back to mainly dedicated stills (the S1R’s) and video (S5ii roaming, S1H static).

Having said that, I have them all set up to do either because every now and again, I need to.

Last year on one job, my main video camera ran out of card space end of bride prep and my spare cards were not on me so had to flip to using the S1R’s…which was fine as they are very capable.

I’m also running now side flipping filters so say I’m shooting video with a VND but then suddenly need to shoot stills, I can just flip the filter sideways…which is good if you are using a 6-9 stop filter!

And my cart arrived!

I’ll get a pic with it fully loaded at one of this weekends two weddings…

[Thpriest]

Which side flipping filters are you using?

[kye]

7 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I’m also running now side flipping filters

2 hours ago, Thpriest said:

Which side flipping filters are you using?

No need to flipping censor yourselves! Speak flipping freely!!

[MrSMW]

9 hours ago, Thpriest said:

Which side flipping filters are you using?

Well there used to be a company who I think set up on Kickstarter whose name I do not remember, but I don’t think they are still around as cheap Chinese knock offs probably put them out of business.

So I bought a cheap Chinese knock off from China!

I just Googled ‘side hinge filter adapter’ or something…